"The Middle"

[derf]

2 minutes ago, Jesse J said:

let's argue about jeeps not politics

Of course

 

 

[Jesse J]

Just now, derf said:

Of course

 

 

wow watch it there you might get cruiser mad at you

[87MJTIM]

I do not disagree with the replies.  In fact, I agree with your replies.

 

However, if I do not agree with where the "middle" is or I don't accept someone else's position, why do I have to compromise my position (whether it is Left or Right).

 

Can we "agree to disagree" and live our lives?

[derf]

6 minutes ago, 87MJTIM said:

Can we "agree to disagree" and live our lives?

That's just it.  We as humans are all bad at agreeing to disagree.

 

If you step away and look at things, you see that just about all of the arguing is one group trying to tell another group how to live their lives based on their personal beliefs.  And yes, everyone does it.  Your side, their side, that other side, those weirdos over there...

 

I used to think it was just my ex girlfriends who thought like this but almost everyone views "compromise" as "everyone does it the way I want".

 

 

The whole point of that ad was to start to change the tone of the rhetoric that invades everything these days and work towards "agreeing to disagree".

[Ωhm]

Should one agree to disagree when lying is involved? Where does the truth fall between the two?

[rokinn]

I think the point of "The Middle" was to acknowledge and reinforce what we have in common as countrymen and women.  Common needs, desires, aspirations for health, security, meaning, freedom to worship a deity as we wish...or not.  To have our individuality validated in the pursuit of happiness.  If we start from there instead of self identifying in some limited tribalistic competition zero sum approach we may just find agreement where it seemed there was none to be had.  A common set of facts goes a long way toward this end.  Not an easy task, to be sure, these days.  There are a lot of people making money through misinformation and division as well as the destruction of the commons at our expense.  As the old saying goes "A Country divided against itself cannot stand."  A wise man once said to me on the subject of self knowing.....I don't know is pretty damn close. 

[Pete M]

1 hour ago, Ωhm said:

Should one agree to disagree when lying is involved? Where does the truth fall between the two?

 

that aspect is going to take a bit more time to..... well, I'm not actually sure how to finish that thought.  it certainly complicates things when interacting with people that believe the lies of politicians (and they all lie, some more than others).  have patience and let the system work and maybe things will get better with time. 

 

let me put it this way, I have 0 faith in any individual in the system, but I have faith in the system to work itself out.  generally this involves pendulum swings back and forth, but we always push forward and are better overall than we were before.  eventually.

[Sir Sam]

Too gawd damm twangy and not enough Jeep. 

[500 MJ]

The subject CJ5 appeared to me to have a reproduction tub on it. The “Jeep” on the tub had no decals on it at the beginning and the rear didn’t appear to have a tailgate or tailgate chains at all at 1:35 (best shot we get of it).

Would I happily own that CJ? YES.

 

Nothing against the aftermarket bodies, just my opinion that a commercial where you are touting your product for being 80 years old, well - I think you ought to show an example of 100% YOUR product... 

[JMO413]

4 hours ago, Pete M said:

I think Jeep's point of the ad was for everyone to chill out and stop seeing people on the other side of an issue as an "enemy".  disagreement can exist without anger.  but not if we let ourselves get continually riled up by the powers that be and the talking heads that benefit/profit from our anger. 

Agreed! 

[Eagle]

I thought that ad was one of THE most cringe-worthy ads of all time. It was condescension raised to exponential levels.

 

That is all.

 

[Eagle]

3 hours ago, Ωhm said:

Should one agree to disagree when lying is involved? Where does the truth fall between the two?

 

What if the truth doesn't lie between the two, but well outside the two? What do you do when both sides lie so much that it becomes virtually impossible to discern what the truth is?

[FrankTheDog]

31 minutes ago, 500 MJ said:

The subject CJ5 appeared to me to have a reproduction tub on it. The “Jeep” on the tub had no decals on it at the beginning and the rear didn’t appear to have a tailgate or tailgate chains at all at 1:35 (best shot we get of it).

Would I happily own that CJ? YES.

 

Nothing against the aftermarket bodies, just my opinion that a commercial where you are touting your product for being 80 years old, well - I think you ought to show an example of 100% YOUR product... 

 

I had an original 1980 CJ5 that had no tailgate. Not all CJ5’s came with a tailgate. Also I’m betting that one has been repainted.

[billyblankss]

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

 

that aspect is going to take a bit more time to..... well, I'm not actually sure how to finish that thought.  it certainly complicates things when interacting with people that believe the lies of politicians (and they all lie, some more than others).  have patience and let the system work and maybe things will get better with time. 

 

let me put it this way, I have 0 faith in any individual in the system, but I have faith in the system to work itself out.  generally this involves pendulum swings back and forth, but we always push forward and are better overall than we were before.  eventually.

 

 

PFFT This is exactly what someone from YOUR side would say... JK obviously. We're on the same side, or the middle, or whatever.

 

18 minutes ago, Eagle said:

I thought that ad was one of THE most cringe-worthy ads of all time. It was condescension raised to exponential levels.

 

That is all.

 

This is the correct answer. 

[Ωhm]

47 minutes ago, Eagle said:

What if the truth doesn't lie between the two, but well outside the two? What do you do when both sides lie so much that it becomes virtually impossible to discern what the truth is?

Then we pick our truth and stand by it. So that's where we are today.

[Jesse J]

not to quote star wars. but many things are true from a certain point of view

[Eagle]

1 hour ago, Ωhm said:

Then we pick our truth and stand by it. So that's where we are today.

 

We don't choose what truth is. Truth IS. If everyone lies about everything, the only thing we can choose is which lie to believe, or to try to imagine what we think might be the truth. The fact we might choose to believe lie 'A' rather than lie 'B' doesn't make lie 'A' the truth. It may be (and probably is) that none of us will ever know -- within the span of our lives -- what the real truth is.

 

Of course, at my age it's more likely that I'll never know the truth than it is for you younger folks. Maybe the truth will somehow get out within the span of your lives. But when most of the media (and effectively ALL of the major media) have been co-opted, even if you hear the truth someday, how will you know it's the truth rather than just another version of another lie?

[derf]

Yup.  We can choose our own opinions.  But we shouldn't be attempting to choose our own facts.  Trouble is, this saying is true and everyone falls into this trap to one degree or another:  To the true believer, no proof is necessary.  To the skeptic, no proof is possible.

 

Even people who profess to be open minded rarely are. 

 

It does you no good to always question everything if you just reject the answers you don't like. 

[75sv1]

8 hours ago, Jesse J said:

not to quote star wars. but many things are true from a certain point of view

Yes, the XJ/MJ was the 'New Hope'. 

[Ωhm]

The problem with the truth is no one can change your mind. Only you can pick your truths. Right/wrong, good/evil, up/down, left/right. You choose.

[89 MJ]

We would also be a lot better off if people wouldn't get their panties in a wad every time someone disagrees with them (ahem, my generation). Some other words of advice, don't argue with an idiot, people won't be able to tell who the real idiot is.

[rokinn]

So oft in theologic wars,
    The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
    Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
    Not one of them has seen!

 

 

"We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning."   Werner Heisenberg

 

[derf]

30 minutes ago, 89 MJ said:

We would also be a lot better off if people wouldn't get their panties in a wad every time someone disagrees with them (ahem, my generation). Some other words of advice, don't argue with an idiot, people won't be able to tell who the real idiot is.

Some of the worst offenders there are old farts set in their ways getting their knickers in a twist when dealing with change.

[Pete M]

the inability to even try to understand another point of view knows no age limits.  (this is completely separate from agreement or compromise) 

[derf]

1 minute ago, Pete M said:

the inability to even try to understand another point of view knows no age limits.  (this is completely separate from agreement or compromise) 

Yep.  From the farm town cafe to the big city coffe shop, everyone sits around in their own echo chamber.  No one wants to put forward the effort to look at anything from someone else's point of view.