Manual transmission neutral safety switch

[mdmonroe]

I have an '88 MJ. In Virginia we have yearly inspections. So, this year they tell me the neutral safety switch is bad. Does the '88 manual transmission have a safety switch? I can't seem to find any kind of information on it anywhere.

[87MJTIM]

No, it does not have an NSS.  It sounds like the inspector is an idiot.

[Minuit]

8 minutes ago, 87MJTIM said:

No, it does not have an NSS.  It sounds like the inspector is an idiot.

No clutch safety switch either.

[mdmonroe]

Pretty much what I was thinking. Is there possibly some place that has some kind of information that I can print out, or show it to them. I have a feeling they aren't going to just take my word for it.

[Pete M]

I'm not really sure how to prove a negative.    

[87MJTIM]

The inspector probably isn't familiar with older vehicles.  He looked for a NSS, didn't see it and thought it was not compliant.

[87MJTIM]

1 minute ago, Pete M said:

I'm not really sure how to prove a negative.    

 

I am pretty positive you cannot prove a negative.

[Ωhm]

Do your back-up lamps work properly?

[mdmonroe]

As far as I know. They didn't say anything about them so I guess so.

[schardein]

One of the big reasons I do not miss living in VA.  I remember failing a safety inspection because my bumper mounted fog lights did not have covers.  They weren't factory, and I had covers, just not with me.  But what if they had been factory, and I didn't have covers?  Those yearly inspections are garbage.  My county also had an emissions inspection every other year, also garbage.  The surrounding counties did not, lucky them.

 

The place I had my inspections done was also a repair shop.  Is that the same in your case?  Perhaps explain to them that 1988 manual transmission Jeep MJs did not have a NSS, and when they argue, tell them if they can find the proper part, you wil pay for it to be installed.  If they can't find the part, then it must not exist.  Best I can come up with.

[Ωhm]

On an AUTO that circuit is part of the NSS.

[mdmonroe]

4 minutes ago, schardein said:

One of the big reasons I do not miss living in VA.  I remember failing a safety inspection because my bumper mounted fog lights did not have covers.  They weren't factory, and I had covers, just not with me.  But what if they had been factory, and I didn't have covers?  Those yearly inspections are garbage.  My county also had an emissions inspection every other year, also garbage.  The surrounding counties did not, lucky them.

 

The place I had my inspections done was also a repair shop.  Is that the same in your case?  Perhaps explain to them that 1988 manual transmission Jeep MJs did not have a NSS, and when they argue, tell them if they can find the proper part, you wil pay for it to be installed.  If they can't find the part, then it must not exist.  Best I can come up with.

Maybe I can convince them. I just thought it might be better if I had some supportive information to show them. 

And yeah, the inspections can be a pain. Especially when they aren't familiar with my vehicle. 

[schardein]

16 minutes ago, 87MJTIM said:

The inspector probably isn't familiar with older vehicles.  He looked for a NSS, didn't see it and thought it was not compliant.

To take this a step further, the only way he (oops, I mean "the inspector" because I had a female inspector once, that was an interesting experience) could identify a NSS "did not work" would be to attempt to start it in gear.  Not a cool move, in my opinion.  Leaving the vehicle in neutral, with the clutch pedal out, and trying to start it, and expecting it not to start, and it does, only proves the clutch safety switch doesn't work, which as Pete pointed out, The MJ doesn't have that either.  I would be very interested in what procedure they used to come with the theory that the NSS is bad.

 

In either case, the only approach I can think of is to tell them the truck doesn't have either one because it's a 1988, and then before they can argue, suggest they search for a replacement part for a MANUAL trans application, then wink and say "you won't find one".  

[Eagle]

1 hour ago, mdmonroe said:

Maybe I can convince them. I just thought it might be better if I had some supportive information to show them. 

And yeah, the inspections can be a pain. Especially when they aren't familiar with my vehicle. 

 

You can download the electrical manual. The diagrams will clearly NOT show any sort of "neutral safety switch" (which, on a manual, probably means clutch interlock) on an '88. I think Chrysler added a clutch interlock in 1991, but it might not have been until 1993.

[mdmonroe]

2 hours ago, schardein said:

To take this a step further, the only way he (oops, I mean "the inspector" because I had a female inspector once, that was an interesting experience) could identify a NSS "did not work" would be to attempt to start it in gear.  Not a cool move, in my opinion.  Leaving the vehicle in neutral, with the clutch pedal out, and trying to start it, and expecting it not to start, and it does, only proves the clutch safety switch doesn't work, which as Pete pointed out, The MJ doesn't have that either.  I would be very interested in what procedure they used to come with the theory that the NSS is bad.

 

In either case, the only approach I can think of is to tell them the truck doesn't have either one because it's a 1988, and then before they can argue, suggest they search for a replacement part for a MANUAL trans application, then wink and say "you won't find one".  

That is a very good point. I have no idea how they tested for that. I guess maybe they could have jacked it off the ground and try to start it I gear....? But like you say, otherwise it would be a stupid thing to do.

[mdmonroe]

1 hour ago, Eagle said:

 

You can download the electrical manual. The diagrams will clearly NOT show any sort of "neutral safety switch" (which, on a manual, probably means clutch interlock) on an '88. I think Chrysler added a clutch interlock in 1991, but it might not have been until 1993.

That is a great idea. I might just do that in case they have an issue with it.

[fiatslug87]

If you look at the 87-90 parts catalog (https://comancheclub.com/topic/60812-need-new-links-to-the-various-factory-shop-manual-pdfs/#comment-625489) the only listings for the NSS lead to the auto trans, that may be enough for them.

 

[gogmorgo]

Is it just an inspection facility or do they also repair? If it's a regular shop and they don't believe you that it doesn't have any clutch or neutral lockouts, tell them to try diagnosing the issue.

I don't see a clutch switch in the parts manuals at XJJeeps.com until '97 on a gas engine, although the 2.1 diesel did come with apparently, but even then it looks like they only used it for the cruise control.

I've only dropped my manual ZJ off at a glass shop a couple times otherwise I do my own work, but both times the kid who went out to bring it into the shop clearly without realizing it was a manual hit the key while it was sitting in gear. It's honestly a little entertaining watching it lurch forward and the kid's eyes go wide. It's not great for the starter, but it's generally not a long enough duration to really cook anything in it, and I do it to myself on occasion too. Not so entertaining however is watching the kid stall it twice and then roast the clutch off moving it out of the parking spot and into the shop.

[cruiser54]

Might be a classic example of this old saying.

 

If you give a monkey a gorilla suit, he thinks he's King Kong. 

 

[MiNi Beast]

9 hours ago, cruiser54 said:

Might be a classic example of this old saying.

 

If you give a monkey a gorilla suit, he thinks he's King Kong. 

 

I like that. 👍 

[schardein]

10 hours ago, cruiser54 said:

Might be a classic example of this old saying.

 

If you give a monkey a gorilla suit, he thinks he's King Kong. 

 

Exactly!

[mdmonroe]

22 hours ago, cruiser54 said:

Might be a classic example of this old saying.

 

If you give a monkey a gorilla suit, he thinks he's King Kong. 

 

Love that one! 😝

[Gojira94]

There are links to copies of the 87, 88 electrical manuals and some other stuff on this forum. FiatSlug87 has links, and I think Cruiser54 does too. In the 88 electrical manual, p.91 ("instrument panel harness heater/air conditioning harness 2.5L/4L") and p.93 ("front lighting, underbody and cruise control harnesses") both diagrams illustrate there is a brake switch (C249) and cruise control interrupt/ dump valve switch (C250) but no NSS. If you're manual without cruise and they see C250 tucked up or dangling (light blue with black stripe wire, and black wire) they may think the NSS has been removed. Shown in 2nd pic of 1st post in this thread, though connector numbers are slightly different for the 87 MJ in question there. But same thing, 100%: here