Give me a brake....

[13 Legion]

87 2.5 RWD Dana 35 stock rear drum.Took my girl in for emissions today. Fully expecting to fail, which she has the last three times,  she didn’t let me down and the streak stays intact! This time though it was due to poor rear brakes which didn’t allow vehicle to slow in the allotted time. So I guess she really didn’t fail the actual emissions since it was incomplete!  I looked on line to search out brake kits, complete with new drums, pads, springs etc... Are these kits worth it? Or just get the basic hardware. I’ve never have done rear drums before but I’m ready to give it a go... a little beer.. swearing... and bloody knuckles!! Also anyone used a complete brake kit like these before? If so any recommendations for brake kit used and a part number? Thanks. Mostly  I’ve seen info on the upgraded booster and swap to rear discs here. Just keeping it old school. 

[Minuit]

Is the load sensing valve positioned correctly?

[Pete M]

  

 

after that I would look into the ZJ disk brakes.  you couldn't pay me to run drums ever again.   

[Eagle]

If it has passed before, it should pass again. Drum brakes do work, but they require periodic adjustment because the self adjusters don't work all that well, and most people don't know how to make them adjust anyway.

 

Step one: Remove the rear drums and see if there's any lining material left on the shoes. If so -- replace the drums, adjust the brakes, and retest.

[DesertRat1991]

2 hours ago, 13 Legion said:

87 2.5 RWD Dana 35 stock rear drum.Took my girl in for emissions today. Fully expecting to fail, which she has the last three times,  she didn’t let me down and the streak stays intact! This time though it was due to poor rear brakes which didn’t allow vehicle to slow in the allotted time. So I guess she really didn’t fail the actual emissions since it was incomplete!  I looked on line to search out brake kits, complete with new drums, pads, springs etc... Are these kits worth it? Or just get the basic hardware. I’ve never have done rear drums before but I’m ready to give it a go... a little beer.. swearing... and bloody knuckles!! Also anyone used a complete brake kit like these before? If so any recommendations for brake kit used and a part number? Thanks. Mostly  I’ve seen info on the upgraded booster and swap to rear discs here. Just keeping it old school. 

 

The Crown Automotive kits will have everything you need for an overhaul except wheel cylinders and the self-adjusting assembly.  Kit includes rotors.  If the cylinders aren't leaking, you can reuse them.  For the self-adjuster, disassemble and re-lube before reusing.  

 

Pro tip: Find a 20% off Harbor Freight coupon and spend the $10 bucks for their Drum Brake Tool Kit.  It's not necessary, but the multi-use pliers make life easier.

 

 

 

[13 Legion]

I hear ya Pete. But..... I swapped my steering gear box for another... manual steer!! So I will probs just keep it drum. As far as load sensing valve, I’ve never messed at all with that.  My Jeep spends more time sitting in garage than ever carrying a load. It’s hooked up but I know I need rear brakes. Thanks DesertRat. That was the kit I was looking at!

[Marine1Texas]

When you use the e-brake does it stop you from trying to move? I never herd about them failing for rear drums, unless the ebrake is not doing the job. In Texas they push the ebrake down and nug the vehicle forward, if it moves it fails. It could be simple adjustment. The rear drums self adjust screw a lot of the time does not work correct and you need to adjust it your self from behind the drum. I have been using the same hardware on my 1987 since 1987. only ever swap out shoes and lube up. Since the load sensor gives very little braking to the back. When I switched over to the 4.10 from 3.07 I taped up the sensor lever and it locked up almost every time I applied heavy braking.

[13 Legion]

It failed because they put it basically on a dyno. Rear wheels spin and the emissions guy runs it through the gears(4spd). It failed because the rear brakes must be able to slow the vehicle to zero from say 50 in a certain time period. It did not. The guy there told me rear brakes were bad which I knew were not that great to start with. He did try to assist it by downshifting a little but to no avail. My e brake does function but they don’t really check that.

[Minuit]

1 hour ago, 13 Legion said:

I hear ya Pete. But..... I swapped my steering gear box for another... manual steer!! So I will probs just keep it drum. As far as load sensing valve, I’ve never messed at all with that.  My Jeep spends more time sitting in garage than ever carrying a load. It’s hooked up but I know I need rear brakes. Thanks DesertRat. That was the kit I was looking at!

If it is not set up correctly your rear brakes will not work even if the brakes are in great shape. Check it. Make sure it looks like Fig. 2 in this link:

 

https://comancheclub.com/topic/45839-mj-height-sensing-brake-proportioning-valve-adjustment-procedure/

 

Easy to accidentally put it on wrong when changing rear diff fluid, etc. It should look exactly like the picture.

[DirtyComanche]

Ditto on the comments about adjusting them and checking the height sensing valve.

 

I'd probably consider disconnecting the valve and zip tying it in the up position (full braking) for the sake of passing the emissions crap.

 

Beyond that you'll have to start changing parts.

[Pete M]

 

 

 

just looking at those all those bits and pieces makes my soul hurt...      brings back so many bad memories of rust and mud and broken springs and jammed drums and loose shoes and wasted money...  

[HOrnbrod]

There's something wrong with people who refuse to convert drum brakes to disks. It's a simple and inexpensive swap, improves braking significantly, requires little maintenance, and might save your life or someone else's down the road. There's not a single advantage to be gained by keeping them. 

[saveevryjp1998]

Ive never heard of someone dying from rear drum brake failure. I do know though that some people(not myself) do not have the experience or knowledge to do the swap and then the maintaining of the nonstock system. For these people the swap would be overwhelming as well as finding a shop to perform the work. A lot of shops simply will not perform that kind of work for liability issues. 4 wheel parts performance here in Indianapolis will not put parts on new or old from any manufacturer they do not carry. I tried awhile back with getting a TNT customs rear axle truss and ubolt eliminator kit installed and no dice. I know the example is entirely different however its the insurance of the shop not the scope of work. Now they will perform the work since they do offer some of their products but not that kit. Maybe I shouldn't even say this so I don't get someone there in trouble on a technicality since as they said "technically we can now since we sell some of their stuff".

 

[schardein]

Oh boy.  I could go several different ways on this thread.  

 

But I will just say that a vehicle is designed to stop with all four wheels on the ground.  Going forward, which cars do 99.9% of the time, the front brakes are doing the majority of the work.  It doesn't make any sense whatsoever from a automotive design theory standpoint to test the brakes as you have described.  I wonder if that is actually in compliance with whatever State inspection program you have.  If so, it's another reason I dislike state safety/emissions testing... generally speaking, it's not about safety or a cleaner environment... it's about money.

 

And I can't help but say... we all know they use drum brakes on school buses, right?

 

There are many advantages to disc brakes, but a properly serviced and functioning drum brake will reliably stop your vehicle.  

[13 Legion]

In order for the emission test to run its cycle the car must be able to come to a dead stop from say 50-0. This has to be within an allotted time. We obviously are talking seconds here! It didn’t brake to zero in the time given. So the emissions test was deemed incomplete( a failure) Emission output I’m sure is tested as it’s attempting to go through this braking cycle. I’ve tried to get antique plates( still need emissions), show plates( which is exempt but you need to meet specific criteria, which I don’t) and the only thing left would be to try and title in another county ( which seems to be the most viable option except all the paperwork.) So with all that being said that’s why I was just going to repair rear drum brakes.

[coolwind57]

Wow, looks like you're in Lake or Porter county--the only two counties in Indiana (I believe) that emissions test.  I remember a decade ago we tested in Southern Indiana.  If I remember correctly, they got rid of it because it seemed kinda dumb that the three smaller Indiana Counties surrounding metro Louisville, Ky were testing and much-larger Jefferson County/Louisville, KY wasn't.    

 

I certainly do not recall them testing brakes specifically, but perhaps they did as part of the tire/machine roller process.  Also, It is my understanding that I can go to any county to register my vehicle.

 

Good thing we don't test down here in the South now.  The PO of my vehicle removed the CAT and I just recently deleted the EGR.  

 

 

[Marine1Texas]

here in Texas all vehicles 25 years and older are exempt. Just have to do visual, horn and light check. In Texas all pre obd2 that are not exempt get the tail pipe check so 94-95 (but not in all counties. Some counties are exempt for all but inspection). All newer 96 and up, just get computer check. So as long as computer passed, horn and lights pass you are good. It is getting hard to find the smog machines here in Texas, since only 2 years left then it is exempt.

 

Diesels in Texas and motorcycles are exempt from emissions testing, but are still required to have the annual safety inspection. So no obd2 check here.

[13 Legion]

CoolWind... correct I’m in Lake County! Yes  the vehicle is on a roller type process to check. So again it failed because on the roller it wasn’t able to slow down in time. I’m almost positive you can’t just pick a random county to title in. You would have to show proof of residency( in that county), as well as have your insurance from that residence. 

[Ωhm]

Prior to putting your vehicle on the dyno, they must set the inertia weights for your vehicle. If this weight is set too high, you'll never slow down in time. Each vehicle is different. Tire grip comes into play here and make sure rear brakes are adjusted properly.

[coolwind57]

58 minutes ago, Noriyori_Kudo said:

here in Texas all vehicles 25 years and older are exempt

Most automobiles non electric or diesel manufactured after 1976 in those two Indiana counties has to be tested.   Except if you have a car that is 4-years old or newer.  Kit cars, motorcycles, recreational vehicles, "Farm-Only" registered vehicles, anything weighing over 9000lbs, ceremonial vehicles and show cars are exempt too.

 

21 minutes ago, 13 Legion said:

I’m almost positive you can’t just pick a random county to title in.

Perhaps titling and registering is different than plating.  i looked all this stuff up just now just for S & Giggles.  You can register vehicles in any county and even on-line if you have an valid Indiana title.  According to BMV, the emissions inspection isn't required to have before you register a vehicle: 

Emissions Inspections

While you do not need to get an inspection before you register your vehicle, you will be required to get an emissions inspection every 2 years to keep your vehicle legal in Indiana."

 

Yet a few pages later BMV states:  "Once your vehicle passes, you'll receive a Vehicle Inspection Report (VIR) to use when you register your vehicle or renew your registration."

 

A bit confusing for sure.  I can only guess that after registering and title work, they won't mail those Lake and Porter folks a plate (or annual sticker) until they process a successful VIR.  Again, just a guess.  i know my wife just had her driver's road test performed two weeks ago at a BMV in Clark and we live in Floyd.  I remember that several years ago, i registered a vehicle in Washington County and i actually lived in Clark.  

 

 

Hey, I had some time to blow and I learned a little just now.

 

[HOrnbrod]

5 hours ago, schardein said:

And I can't help but say... we all know they use drum brakes on school buses, right?

 

There are many advantages to disc brakes, but a properly serviced and functioning drum brake will reliably stop your vehicle.  

 

That's the problem - maintenance. Drum brakes are maintenance intensive. School buses have mandated scheduled inspections and maintenance programs, and with proper maintenance drum brakes can perform satisfactorily. Unfortunately that's not the case with 99% of the other drum brake junk rattling down the road. Some degree of skill is required to eval drum brake condition which the average Mom and Pop don't have. But any moron can eyeball the caliper pads and easily see they need replacement. Can't do that with drums. And in states w/o safety inspections, properly serviced and functioning drum brakes just don't happen.

 

Brakes are the second leading cause of accidents due to mechanical failures (defective tires are first), and a large part of brake failures are caused the junk still running around with defective drum brakes.

[87MJTIM]

Maryland used to do a roller test.  It stopped that and did a tail pipe test for non-OBD2 vehicles.  

 

This year, the state is eliminating emissions testing for pre-96 vehicles.  

[schardein]

36 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

 

That's the problem - maintenance. Drum brakes are maintenance intensive. School buses have mandated scheduled inspections and maintenance programs, and with proper maintenance drum brakes can perform satisfactorily. Unfortunately that's not the case with 99% of the other drum brake junk rattling down the road. Some degree of skill is required to eval drum brake condition which the average Mom and Pop don't have. But any moron can eyeball the caliper pads and easily see they need replacement. Can't do that with drums. And in states w/o safety inspections, properly serviced and functioning drum brakes just don't happen.

I agree.  My opinion on rear disc brake conversions, is if you are going to be doing a lot of off-roading, especially mud, a disc brake conversion should be high on the priority list for exactly the reason you stated-- reduced maintenance.  Disc brakes are inherently self cleaning.  But for daily drivers, I'm not sure it is worth the expense unless the owner just wants that cool factor.  One of my concerns with a rear disc brake conversion is properly setting up the parking brake, especially for a manual trans truck.  Full size drum parking brakes (properly functioning) are more effective than those dinky "drum brake inside the hub" setups.  When I converted my 14b to rear discs, I could have just used front calipers and called it done, but that would have effectively deleted the parking brake.  Proper way was to use the Cadillac calipers and have custom brake cables made for the application (which I did).

 

Another concern is properly setting up the front/rear bias.  Does someone who can't figure out drum brakes, which I agree are complicated, and more complicated than even meets the eye for someone new to working on cars-- can they figure out proper brake bias?  It may be as easy as swapping combination valves, or require an adjustable valve to dial in the amount of rear brakes.  Failure to get the parking brake set up and working or address brake bias could result in a vehicle that's more unsafe than one with factory drum brakes that are wore out or out of adjustment. 

[HOrnbrod]

Guys that like drum brakes also like carburetors, 6V positive ground electrical systems, Lucas electrics, AM radios, mechanical fuel pumps, hubcaps, roll-down windows, generators, faux wood paneling, bench seats, and Renix ignition systems.  

[schardein]

48 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

Guys that like drum brakes also like carburetors, 6V positive ground electrical systems, Lucas electrics, AM radios, mechanical fuel pumps, hubcaps, roll-down windows, generators, faux wood paneling, bench seats, and Renix ignition systems.  

Haha  I like hub caps... sometimes...