MayDay!! - Hard Accel Killed Idle

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

This makes it look way easier than it seemed in words..

https://youtu.be/olxXzyzMF-4

 

[Ωhm]

Good video. One man show with him. 

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Yeah.  I sure wish my electric fan came out that smoothly, mine is a much tighter fit.

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Here is a video that seems to show T13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMf56Lv5L98

 

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

If am understanding a little better, I believe what I did this morning is not "Indexing", but "Index Checking."  In the video I posted on setting TDC, that guy's fingers had to be much longer that mine, there was no way I could get any finger or thumb in there to check for compression v exhaust cycle, but I am willing to bet until someone tells me otherwise that if I captured the exhaust in the images below, the engine would not be running at all.  So I am assuming what I captured is TDC #1 combustion.  What I do know is that the notch is exactly aligned with "0".  What I do not know for 100% certainty is that I am at 100% TDC combustion.  I don't have a dowel or anything similar yet to put in the cylinder and try to confirm this is the point at which the piston is completely at the top.  I used a long zip-tie but since it was flexible there is some amount of ambiguity.  But I do know it is close.  Image Top Right shows where the rotor is.  The pic alone seems only somewhat useful.  (I now see the point of cutting up a dist for this check, I wish I still had the one I took off in Jan).  However I scratched a pointer to the center of the rotor contact and put the dist cap back on, the bottom pics show there is not a 100% alignment.  My expertise doesn't include knowing how far off it would have to be for this to cause a problem.  An of course I have now way of knowing if this amount of misalignment has been there since I bought the Jeep in 1990, or if it has only been there since the "maneuver incident".  I am going to get a dowel or a long fireplace match, or something stiff but not scratchy and try to confirm if the notch at 0 is really TDC.  Since I don't believe I have any way to make my fingers longer, I am going to stop at the local hardware store and see if there happens to be any threaded pipe on the shelf that just happens to be the same size and thread as the spark plug so I can move the hole in the block out to where I can actually reach it with a finger and then I can also confirm this is actually TDC combustion rather than exhaust.  If there isn't perhaps that is the invention I can use to fund my retirement.

 

So the questions to the experts is obviously, do the pictures indicate an issue that MUST be corrected, SHOULD be corrected, is an OPTIONAL correction, or is this an alignment within the range that the ECU "should" manage it fine as is.  And of course if this is not acceptable, would it account for my engine issue?

 

[Ωhm]

All photos look good. You didn't jump a tooth or two.  Indexing is not your problem.

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Glad to hear that!  I was not looking forward to doing the full index procedure.  The two videos I dug up made it look less off-putting, but then I also watched this one, and that changed my mind.  Watch from about 12:30 to see why...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aNvypX24ek

Basically, putting the dist back it is hit or miss, literally, and you have to be able to tell by listening if you get it correct, yikes.

 

Also, when I pulled plugs to aim at TDC, I snapped a pic.  If you go way back in this post you can see the black with I took them out before.  This is from that time, when I put in a new plug, until now.  It's true that I've only put on 10 or so miles max, but have also run it in the driveway maybe a total of an hour, so this is a very short time test, but, for what it's worth it looks very clean at the moment.

 

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Back on June 11 the local shop told me my injector harness connectors were corroded and too loose.  And the REM has intermittently reported Injector codes moving around injectors 1, 2 and 3.  So these things seem to support each other.  I ordered new harness ends and got them yesterday, and this morning I started replacing.

 

By the time I finished replacing #1 and #2 I had learned that yes all the harness connectors COULD be removed with various amount of wiggle and twist.  But I also learned this was true of the new connectors as well.  I came to the conclusion that replacing them to achieve a connection you could not pull off was not a valid goal.  I also learned that the spring clip is not that strong, and you can wiggle it in place better once installed if you try, resulting in a connection that is pretty darn snug, but if you try hard enough you can still get it loose, and I think that's OK.

 

The shop had also noted corrosion.  I looked closely, and yeah I see a bit of something, but it didn't look all that bad. What it really looked like to me was remnants of dielectric grease.  So I took one of the new connectors and measured resistance from the wire to the connector.  I got 0ohms, which is not a surprise.  I then took one of the 2 connectors I had cut off, sprayed them good will CRC QD Electronic Cleaner, and after a couple dosed of this spray, they looked a lot better.  I took the DMM and repeated the measurement, 0.1 ohms.  OK, not zero, but I believe it is close enough.  I continued by cleaning the connector on the injectors as well with a combination of the spray and a fingernail file.  You can see the crud removal on the piece to the right, which I cut off and repeated and you can see the improvement on the left. 

 

After cleaning all the connections it was test time.  The first test was to repeat what the shop noted, which was that wiggling the connections caused a noticeable change in the sound of the engine.  I heard no change at all by wiggling any connector.  I then repeated the REM test.  Before this as noted before I got various injector errors reported.  Since the REM docs say this measure is made once when you turn the key on, my process was Key ON, read codes, make a note, Key OFF, wait 2-3 minutes and repeat.  Prior to this cleaning ritual, I would get codes almost every time, either INJ OPEN, or the INJ 12V error that the docs says can be ignored if it is seen with the KO Tests Not Run response.  I got NO ECU CODES 12 out of 12 times.  12 is not a big number, but based on the frequency of seeing this code before the cleaning, I am cautiously optimistic that issue has been resolved.  I also believe that I could have achieved this result without replacing any of my injector harness connectors, but since I already replaced 2 of them, I'll just have to leave that belief unchallenged.  

 

 

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Back on June 11 shop #2 also noted arcing at one spark plug wire to the heater control valve hose that was right up against it.  That particular arc was easy enough to fix, just move the hose.  He told me to wait until it was dark and spray the plug wires and look for sparks.  I did see plenty of sparks.  I am still a bit skeptical on this, but I looked around for a single new plug wire.  Turns out single plug wires don't appear to be sold at least not new at the typical auto parts places.  Before I just in and replace all the wires with "a premium set", I ordered a set off ebay for $6, but goal is to prove to myself if possible that not all wires will spark, or they will, when sprayed with soapy water.

 

I also took off one of the wires that arc-ed a lot for inspection.  I see no visible cracks which makes sense, they are new wires.  I measured the resistance and got 440-ohms for this one that is 10.75" long.  According to the internet, the first time I asked, I should expect 3000-10000.  So, fail.  But further research seems to be telling me that although the 3k-10k numbers should be seen if I have OEM spec wires, "newer low resistance" wires are also available "now", and that what I have is that, and that is OK.

 

I will post back when I get the new test wires, and repeat the arc test.

 

In the meantime, the questions to the group are:

1.  Should I look for original OEM resistance wires or are the "newer" lower resistance wires OK.

2.  If I see sparks when I spray soapy water, but not unless I do, are the wires really bad?

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Also back on June 11 at the shop we did a smoke test.  No smoke at all was seen anywhere other than at the airbox.  We looked from the top side and also from the bottom.  Smoke was running for at least 5 minutes.  The pic below show where the smoke as injected

 

Is this a valid spot to check for leaks in the exhaust side?

[Eagle_SX4]

2 minutes ago, AnotherOldJeepGuy said:

Is this a valid spot to check for leaks in the exhaust side?

No. If you want to find exhaust leaks put the smoke machine up the tailpipe. The intake and exhaust valves are never open at the same time. Meaning there is no open air path to get the smoke into the exhaust manifold.

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

I thought that might possibly be the case.  It would take a lot of smoke to get all the way from the tailpipe to the exhaust manifold, perhaps I might pull the Oxy sensor and go in there?

[Gojira94]

1 hour ago, AnotherOldJeepGuy said:

Should I look for original OEM resistance wires or are the "newer" lower resistance wires OK

 

Your current wires look like the same NGK wires I'm running. 500 ohms or less per foot is very good. You don't want higher resistance wires, no. And for misting the wires while running, no soap needed. That process is meant to find damage to wires from contact with hot things, damage not visible to the naked eye. Current moving across high resistance looks for shortcuts to ground, so low resistance/ internally well-shielded wires is what you want.

[Eagle_SX4]

44 minutes ago, AnotherOldJeepGuy said:

I thought that might possibly be the case.  It would take a lot of smoke to get all the way from the tailpipe to the exhaust manifold, perhaps I might pull the Oxy sensor and go in there?

I don't think it would be worth the effort of pulling the oxygen sensor. It will take longer to fill the exhaust through the tailpipe, but you can check the entire exhaust for leaks not just the manifold.

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

2 hours ago, Eagle_SX4 said:

I don't think it would be worth the effort of pulling the oxygen sensor. It will take longer to fill the exhaust through the tailpipe, but you can check the entire exhaust for leaks not just the manifold.

OK, makes sense.  I'll see if I can get the same folks repeat the test from the other end.  It is a bit discouraging that the professional didn't already know that the entry point was of no use for checking the exhaust .

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

2 hours ago, Gojira94 said:

 

Your current wires look like the same NGK wires I'm running. 500 ohms or less per foot is very good. You don't want higher resistance wires, no. And for misting the wires while running, no soap needed. That process is meant to find damage to wires from contact with hot things, damage not visible to the naked eye. Current moving across high resistance looks for shortcuts to ground, so low resistance/ internally well-shielded wires is what you want.

OK.  I won't hunt for higher resistance "OEM rated" wires.  Am I correct in understanding that if the wires are good, there will not be any arcs when I spray them?  It just seems odd that my wires are sparking, at least 4 of them, and they are essentially new, that just doesn't seem to make sense.

[Gojira94]

Old plugs and new plugs are copper, right? No platinum, not iridium (especially) or anything else but copper Champion RN12YC at .035" gap?

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Plugs are Champion 3344 with 0.035 gap.

[Gojira94]

Platinum. Significantly higher resistance than copper. I'd suggest replacing those (I'm sorry!) with Champion 404/RN12YC (about $6 each). The platinum plugs are not a good match for your wires.

[87MJTIM]

4 hours ago, AnotherOldJeepGuy said:

 

Is this a valid spot to check for leaks in the exhaust side?

 

I saw this on YT once:

 

Attach a shop vac on blower to the exhaust pipe. Get a spray bottle of soapy water and start spraying around the manifold and collector pipe looking for bubbles. 

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

40 minutes ago, Gojira94 said:

Platinum. Significantly higher resistance than copper. I'd suggest replacing those (I'm sorry!) with Champion 404/RN12YC (about $6 each). The platinum plugs are not a good match for your wires.

So are you suggesting that if I replace the plugs I would no long have arcing?

 

Adding to Question.  My owner manual and my Haynes manual both call for Champion RC9YC, is that also a compatible plug for the wires I have?

Edited 2 hours ago by AnotherOldJeepGuy
Adding to question

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

4 minutes ago, 87MJTIM said:

I saw this on YT once:

 

Attach a shop vac on blower to the exhaust pipe. Get a spray bottle of soapy water and start spraying around the manifold and collector pipe looking for bubbles. 

Interesting.  I have been trying the bubble test but have been doing in letting the motor as the bubble blower.  But my version only gives about 1 minute before the metal gets hot and evaporates the liquid.  This seems like a good experiment to try.