freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 okay i looked tonight at my welds and i realized i didnt have my heat up high enuf but I'm gonna redo them tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Ok I have read along with this and havent chimed in but here goes........don't take anybody's criticism personally. Remember everyone likes to give advice. Here goes my 2 cents. Glad to see your going to redo your welds......Those were really not good. If you have trouble with burning through at higher heat levels try starting your weld "puddle" on the new plate and then move it to the original frame....I good tip I learned is if your running a good weld it will sound like bacon frying......I would also like to say plating over rust is NOT a permanent fix. It WILL rust through again. So go ahead and patch the old girl up. There is no better way to learn than by doing.....Just remember to be objective about the condition of your frame and the quality of your repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 THANK YOU! i needed someone who isnt gunna critisize me . anyway i do know how to weld but that bit of advice helps alot i will listen for thatfor now on. my big problem today was i was worried about burning through so i dialed the heat back and then i forgot to clean everything perfectly . but tomorrow I'm grinding it off and then burning them in good! thanks alot man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I criticized you? Rob L. :hmm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 accually no you didnt so thanks to you to. opps i forgot about you I'm a :dunce: . sorrey about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 just remember that sometimes that criticism is justified......I remember fixing some projects when I was younger that :waving: the older guys told me were junk......I fixed them anyway....had lots of time and very little cash...lol. In the end what I should have done is listened.....I once bought a triumph spitfire that my dad said was a piece of crap. I knew the floors were bad when I got it but I could fix it.....I brought the car home and took off the hard top and for some reason the doors didnt want to shut........ :dunno: :dunno: .......I'm sure some of you guys know where this is going......The frame was so weak that the car was folding without the top for support....I patched it up and painted it and put it on the road.....sort of....I actually got to drive it abou2 and 1/2 days a week. Thw rest of the time I worked on it. I ended up selling it to a guy for parts about 3 months later.........God I still hate that @#$%^&**(&^&^%%$$$##@@@ car!!!!!!.......The only good thing that came out of that deal was that I learned some things arent worth fixing.......and.......I'll never buy another british car....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 lol I'm sure I'm gunna say the say about this jeep after i finish but i want to do it anyway theres too many good memories in this truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 My brother's Nissan pickup was broken that badly a couple or three years ago. He had a shop that specializes in that type of repair fix it. I was hoping I could get some photos, but he said it's parked in and surrounded by mowers and other stuff so getting access to the frame for photos isn't going to happen. Basically, though, the shop plated the frame. The repair was done with the box mounted. Removing it is great if you can do it, but not necessary. But you DO have to wire brush and/or grind all surface rust off before you even think about putting new metal on. What's going to happen is that the holes are going to get a lot bigger, but you need for that to happen so you can see how far you have to extend your plating. The plating has to restore the vertical sides of the frame as well as the bottom. You CANNOT weld to rust. Period. Ain't gonna happen. You MUST be certain that you are welding to solid metal, or your weld is nothing but an illusion. Did you understand the comments about "fish eyes"? That means be aware of stress concentrators. Don't end any piece of plating in a straight line that runs perpendicular to the frame. All you're doing with that is creating a weak spot. Think "football." The ends of all your plates should be oval-shaped on the ends. That distributes the stresses of the welds along a length of the frame rather than on a single line. Do NOT use 1/8" plate. That's much too thick. Ideally, you would use sheet that's approximately the same thickness as the frame you're welding to. That way, both pieces heat up the same and you get equal penetration on both the plate and the parent frame. Somebody mentioned 12-gauge, and that's probably about right. Maybe 10-gauge if you can get it. What's the temperature where you are? Are you working outdoors? You need to preheat the metal before you even start the weld bead. If your father is working with you, one of you should hold a torch and play it along the line you'll be welding to get the metal somewhat up to temperature so there's at least a chance of getting penetration. I am not the world's best welder, but I have taken classes and I have done some welding over the years. I'm afraid I am with the majority on your welds -- you have no penetration. Those are cold welds. Your "beads" are basically lines of slag that's stuck to the surface. I'm sure if you tapped them with a slag hammer the weld beads would break right off. At lest part of the reason is welding to cold metal. I think you're right to worry about burning through the frame metal, but trying to get a balanced weld on two pieces of greatly different thickness, in freezing conditions, is about as bad as it gets. Make life easier -- use similar thickness metal for your plates, and preheat. I am all in favor of saving any MJ possible, and your truck is no worse than my brother's was. BUT ... if you want it to be safe, you'll have to make it safe, and that means spending a lot of time on thinking out how you plan to do the work, prepping the repair areas, and cutting your plates to fit the area to be repaired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 my welder has 4 heat levels (its a 400$ welder) and i was on level 2 . tmomorrow when i redo the welds i am going to grind it almost completly off then burn it id with level 4. after i get ecerything suppourted good I'm going to take the box off bucause theres other stuff to do under there. you wouldnt have and pics of anything of "fish eyes would you?. I'm not using 1/8 I'm just calling it that because its somewhat near it . its more like something between 1/16 and a 1/8 (havnt measured just eyeballing) but it isnt all that much thicker than the frame and its all i have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I can't really tell by the "after" pics, but are you fully removing the rust from the weld area and chamfering the sides of the new steel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 chamfering? anyway jeep com was right i ddnt od a whold lot of prep but i did run a grinding wheel down the weld areabut no I'm not cutting any frame rust out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 chamfering? anyway jeep com was right i ddnt od a whold lot of prep but i did run a grinding wheel down the weld areabut no I'm not cutting any frame rust out Then you can't possibly know what you're welding to. The success of your repair is going to depend 90 percent on the preparation. You are not doing yourself any favors trying to "save time" by skipping important steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannabeMJ Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 hi I know I'm new to this forum (actualy this is my first post) but i gotta say i redid an old 88 YJ completely that had the front frame at the steering box completely rusted out I got the frame part done by a pro to be safe and to save time and money safety is a big issue here maybe you should talk to some of the guys on this forum and found out how they did theirs right now I'm thinking to buy myself an MJ and I'm reading some of ur post to find out what ill need to do and to find out what are the weak spots i need to look for when ill buy my own keep going I'm interested in what ur gonna do to it good luck with ur project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MancheKid86 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 THANK YOU! i needed someone who isnt gunna critisize me . its not that we are criticizing you, because we are not, we are looking out for you and your safety, we want to see you succeed, that is why we have replied so abruptly, we just don't want to anything to happen to you in your mj that we could have prevented by giving you some advice, because you are part of the comanche club family and family looks out for family right? ask cw longshot for some frame rot/repair advice, I'm sure he will gladly help you you can also look on page 28 or 29 of his thread to see what he did, your projects interest me, so i want to see how this turns out, best of luck to you man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 thanks man i know . i may be somewhat new to welding but i do know how to wed decently. me and dad were talking this morning and it seems i overlooked that i was running my welder off a long extension cord and in the cold which probably messed my welds up. but doont worrey I'm goin to fix them today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Okay, as you may remember I am from Prince Edward Island...for those of you who never knew that, it's in the middle of the Gulf of St. Lawrence (all salt water). Like Dipper Harbur, freakjeep93, it's a "mild Canadian" climate....-20C or so in the winter, +32C in summer roughly. Very moist (he's off the Bay of Fundy) ALL YEAR ROUND. No one on the forum knows rust like you and I do unless they are from the same type of area....saltwater and humidity all year round, couple with salted roads in the winter. If they are not and they think the rust they get is bad, they can go back and look at the first pictures that you posted....that is NORMAL rust on a 20yr vehicle in areas like this. Nothing out of the ordinary here. Living in practically rust free Alberta out here now, I can now say that I have seen the best (and lived through the worst) of rust. That being said, you are not a welder. Your father is not a welder, or if he has, he hasn't taught you anything properly or completely (thinking you know how to do it because he showed you some stuff is different from taking the time to learn from him properly) . If he had, you wouldn't have made the mistakes you did so far. The extension cord is an example....any good welder worth his salt (pardon the pun) knows that an extension cord is like a water hose.....the longer it is, the less pressure coming out. And electrical power equals water pressure in this comparison. Having another 18 year old on here tell you "yeah, go for it" is not a good indicator of whether it advisable to do so or not. Having some very experienced welders on here advise you of your mistakes is a much better route to take. Rust will not go away if it is not cut out. And where you are, it's even more important. You will probably not find a frame that is rust free (could possibly b a barn find I suppose) - and the best ones you find will probably make most people on here puke with the amount of rust on it. But you simply cannot afford to cut corners because the rust situation is so bad with your vehicle....it is crucially even more important to do a complete and well done job on your rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 yea i now know the extension cord was abad idea . no we are not welders but we do know how to weld .my dad has done this before and I'm getting advice of him and the people on thsi forum.today I'm and going to use a shorter heavier gauge extension cord for my weld. i did grind my welds down abit and they now look better but befor i do anything else i am going to go over them with high heat. both me and dad are people who that if we don't know something we learn as we do it so this is one giant learning curve for me and i believe i will get better every time i do mjore on it and i will get a good job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunl Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Then you need to start doing a lot more research first. Why not take a course on welding? Margaret Laurence, the novelist, once met a brain surgeon at a cocktail party. “You know, when I retire I’m going to become a novelist,” he said. Laurence, an author of international acclaim, replied quickly and curtly: “When I retire, I’m going to become a brain surgeon.” The confident doctor thinks that he can become a novelist. After all, it’s only words. Anyone can write. Laurence bristles. She knows that he is as likely to become a novelist of her stature as she is to become a neurosurgeon of his. Her message: Writing deserves respect. Writing is a craft, a gift, a profession. It’s also hard work, blackening pages, and the best have a genius of their own. The brain surgeon isn’t alone in presuming he can do something that looks easy. In this Age of the Amateur, when experience no longer matters, anyone can seek to become president of the United States, for example. No need to waste time in the laborious work of running, winning and serving at a lower level. If you are the jumped-up Sarah Palin, you can believe yourself ready for the White House after a short spell as governor of Alaska, even if you’ve resigned before your first term is over. Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... z0aFTlaLXy Learn how to weld on scrap.....then actually do correct welding on your rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 ive done a pretty good amount of welding before though man. ive welded scrap togeter . ive out toungues on trailers and ive welded on my atvs bumper. and thats just with the mig. ive done stuff on the tractor , weded the bumper onto this truck (don't ask it was dads idea) and again welded scraps with the arc. hers a picture of what i did on the trailer: those ones wasnt as pretty as the first ones but they are just as strong. the point I'm trying to make is that i just made a couple mistakes in my exitement yesterday. the first was using cheap extension cord , the second welding in the cold , and the 3rd not puttting my heat high enough. today I'm goin to do better because my exitement has worn off abit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvusse Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I've welded where needed on and off for going on 20 years, but for lack of practice am far from a great welder. Would like to take a course at some point in my life, but have neither money to nor time right now. So I weld what I feel confident in welding, and leave important stuff that I don't have the equipment for to a professional. So a welded to tongue on my trailer out of what were the front frame rails of the pickup truck that was used as a base, as well as patch to repair a rip in the frame of my MJ where the steering box tried to pull it's bolts through. Also welding a junk socket to a bolt with a stripped head, and welding a floor into both my F100 and my XJ that lacked one when I bought them. But I took my new axle to a professional to burn 1/4" thick steel spring perches and shock mounts on after I had tacked them in place with my little wire feed. It is great that you want to learn, and I miss the enthusiasm I used to have when I was younger, and that you undoubtedly still have. But from looking at your welds, you do not yet have the skill to make a repair of this importance. Pat (JeepcoMJ) might have been harsh earlier on in this thread, but what he states has merit. You may trust your welds, but any professional welder, and anyone who has enough experience welding can tell from the pictures you posted that you didn't do the necessary prep work, didn't do the repair properly with the right materials, and that your welds lack the strength to be safe. A lot of advice has been given in this thread on how it needs to be done, but it is all advice that someone with the necessary skill would already have known. This is what proper welds look like: You have multiple parts MJs, right? What is the frame like on the other ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 the only one with a half decent frame is the one in my avater or my restoratin porject. but those welds did suck and I'm going to redo them as soon ad this snow stops. more likely tomorrow but anyway. i do trust my welding i can and have done wutie good jobs before i just messed up because i got too exitedand for got about some simple stuff. pretty much the extension cord and to low of a heat level. the metal i welded to was clean i ran a gringin wheel down the edge of the frame where i welded and before i put the steel in place i ran did the same thing on the top of the plate where i welded too and it was all shiney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWLONGSHOT Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Look.. We all understand you are VERY excited by finally getting part of your project going. We all know the feeling of that rush, and being young makes it twice as bad. Even with Pat's fairly hard handed responses, he his correct. Those welds are not good. The material was too dirty and you are not getting enough heat for good penetration. No one seriously wants you to quit a project. But they do want you to do it correctly. We want as many Comanche nuts around as long as possible. I have to say I agree. Please do not take this as a negative, I (we) want to help!! You asked my opinion before you began and I gave it. You chose to attempt it anyway. No one wants to pull the carpet out from under you and damper your enthusiasm. But doing this wrong is definitely a MAJOR safety issue. One for you as the driver or passenger and to anyone on the road with you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, take some time to watch some clips on YouTube I have posted here for you. I really wish I was closer I would take the time to come up and work with you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJrBxABswjs These weldes of yours definitely do not have adequate penetration. They are not strong and will fail. Either your machine is not up to the task, your steel is too dirty or both. Practice makes perfect so more practice on your part is also a good thing. Simply search Mig welding and a plethora of clips will be at your disposal. I truly wish I could fine a couple that helped me so much. They showed what to do and also had the sound of the weld as you can tell how things will be by sound alone. CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 thanks CW weve all gone over the reasons why i buggered up the welds on the frame and ive come to the thought that i didnt have the heat turned up high enoughas it was only on level 2 of 4. i was taking it easy on the heat because i didnt want to burn through the frame and create more holes. but I'm going to fix my welds next time i get working on it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 anyway I'm gunna get pete or one of the mods to delete this thread its just pissin me off because everyone knows i made the mistake and i do to and people just keep telllin me . and it seems noone wants me to take this on anywawy so I'm just gunna do it and not share anything untill its done so i can show everyone that it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Well, speaking only for myself, I want you to do it. Read my signature -- IMHO any MJ that still remotely resembles an MJ is worth trying to save. Remember, they aren't making any more Comanches. There weren't that many to begin with, there's a lot fewer today than there were at the end of 1992, and if we scrap every one that's not rock solid -- well, the ones I have will just become that much more valuable, I guess. Living in a salt-belt climate, I understand the problem. It's easy for some of you to say "forget that one and find a solid one." But pay attention to where freakjeep lives. There probably isn't a solid MJ chassis within 500 miles of where he lives. There's NOTHING wrong with repairing a rusted frame. As I mentioned in the post about my brother's Nissan, there's a shop near me (and near CW) that specializes in precisely this type of repair. Certainly it can be done, but it requires attention to detail if it is to be done correctly and ... most importantly ... safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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