Death wobble is getting old

[Goatman]

Maybe automotive engineers learned something?  

 

Anyway, always check the steering stabilizer if there is DW, as well as checking for anything at all that is loose.

[gogmorgo]

Dampers are legitimate engineering solutions to stopping vibrations. Sometimes it's the only way. 

AMC had one of the better engineering outfits in the late 70's and early 80's. They just had no capital to work with and some maybe not-so-great management. When Chrysler took over, you would've thought it was the other way around when you went into engineering. If AMC's engineers thought it needed a damper, I'll trust them. 

Almost anything can cause a vibration going down the road. If you don't have a damper in there, and the vibration in a wheel goes from up/down to left/right, it's going to start steering you back and forth unless something stops it. That's death wobble.

If the vibration is bad enough (or the damper is worn out) it'll overwhelm the damper, sure. But just because the boards and plexiglass don't stop ALL the pucks from flying into the crowd doesn't mean they aren't useful. 

[shelbyluvv]

A steering stabilizer is a bandaid. If your front end is in good shape and your tires are properly balanced you do not need one.

This is the front on my daily driven Dodge Ram 2500, long bed, 4x4, BBed Cummins.



I don't have a stabilizer. I bent it a few months back and removed it. I have been too cheap, lazy and busy to mess with it.

If you're thinking that it is fine because I don't have aggressive tires you'd be wrong.



Maybe they are just a touch bigger than stock size tires?

Wrong again.



If I can run without a stabilizer on this big girl there is no reason why an MJ can't.

Stop buying into the hype that you need a steering stabilizer



Richard I know you know you're stuff but this is one of the times I don't agree with you or anyone that ever suggest replacing a stabilizer to fix DW.

[Goatman]

So, you just don't believe me? My many experiences of fixing DW by replacing the stabilizer are lies or I'm just not credible? The factory engineers did put a stabilizer on your truck. Look guys, I'm not saying that a stabilizer fixes all DW. As we know, DW can come from so many things. I'm simply saying that when the cause is minor, a very slight tire imbalance, a very slight steering gear play, a very slightly worn bushing, etc., etc., that the steering stabilizer is designed to fight the resulting potential oscillation and prevent DW. Disagree all you want. Doesn't change anything. If everything is perfect, yes, no stabilizer is needed, but if something is slightly less than perfect, then the shock does it's job. I think you're taking my point for more than what I'm saying.

[shelbyluvv]

I do believe you covered up a problem by replacing a weak damper. I also believe you did not fix the problem. You simply prolonged a minor issue that will turn into a bigger issue later on.

As I have shown above. You do not need a damper if your front end is healthy, alignment is good and your tires are properly balanced.

If you want to keep band aiding people's vehicles that's your choice. It is NOT the correct way to repair a DW problem, period.

[gogmorgo]

How much do you think a manufacturer could save by not installing the stabilizer over an entire tire production run? $5 per vehicle? $10? The consumer won't notice but the manufacturer would save millions. If they didn't think it was needed they wouldn't have started putting them on, and they wouldn't continue.

 

I'm curious though, have you noticed any tendencies towards wandering, increased steering feel, or any other effects from having removed the damper? Just wondering what else it might be doing. 

[shelbyluvv]

It has nothing to do with cost savings. It has everything to do with the solid axle design and it's tendency to have DW and bump steer. They are there to cover up and hide shimmy and bump steer. They are also there to delay vehicles coming back for warranty repair for shimmy and shakes. There are numerous recalls and TSBs from every manufacturer of solid axle vehicles. Guess what the reason for custom complaint is? Yep, DW and steering wheel shimmy. My truck above has an open recall for the steering. I'm waiting until I need new components to take it in and get the steering replaced.

I have noticed a slight bit more or "crown following" and very minor shimmy on hard impact hits. The steering is not as firm without the damper but it returns to center faster.

This is not the first solid axle vehicle that I have removed the damper on. I don't run them on any I take off road. I seem to smash them the very first time out. For me it is cheaper and easier to set my steering up properly than replace a un-needed part.

[carnuck]

Bandaid on a bullet wound. It might feel better and stop the bleeding but it’s still going to fester and eventually the patient will die from the infection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HOrnbrod]

Well, it's too late for any warranty work on my MJ, so I'll continue to drive with one. In fact, I recently changed it out for a beefier OME stabilizer. Steering still feels the same though. 

[Eagle]

The factory used a steering stabilizer for the reason Carnuck stated -- to combat steering wheel kick-back when rock crawling.

 

One of the two times I experienced real, gen-you-wine death wobble was in my 6-month old 1999 WJ that had less than 10,000 miles on it and that had never been farther off-road than my gravel driveway. The steering stabilizer didn't do a damned thing to prevent the DW.

[Jeep Driver]

[carnuck]

The first Steering stabilizers were put on motorcycles (with only one front wheel, it truly was death wobble if not controlled. )



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Goatman]

8 hours ago, Eagle said:

The factory used a steering stabilizer for the reason Carnuck stated -- to combat steering wheel kick-back when rock crawling.

 

One of the two times I experienced real, gen-you-wine death wobble was in my 6-month old 1999 WJ that had less than 10,000 miles on it and that had never been farther off-road than my gravel driveway. The steering stabilizer didn't do a damned thing to prevent the DW.

 

Yep, they sure did, on F250's, Dodge 2500's, WJ's, and lot's more. Gotta fight that kick back when rock crawling...   

[carnuck]

 
Yep, they sure did, on F250's, Dodge 2500's, WJ's, and lot's more. Gotta fight that kick back when rock crawling...   

Just rough roads or curbs in general. Especially with bigger than stock tires.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Goatman]

On 10/26/2017 at 4:59 PM, shelbyluvv said:

As I have shown above. You do not need a damper if your front end is healthy, alignment is good and your tires are properly balanced.

If you want to keep band aiding people's vehicles that's your choice. It is NOT the correct way to repair a DW problem, period.

 

So, what if you get mud on your tires and they're out of balance. What if you hit a rock or curb and knock a wheel weight off. What if your tires are worn since they were balanced. Sure, I agree in a perfect world you don't need a stabilizer. Unfortunately too many situations aren't perfect. A stabilizer shock fights oscillation, just like a wheel shock fights normal spring frequency. A bad wheel shock might allow a tire to cup, and a bad steering stabilizer might allow an oscillation that can turn to DW. 

 

My race truck two weeks ago had DW on practice day. No looseness of any kind found in steering or suspension. Spent 40 bucks on a new stabilizer and we raced for 15 hours on Sat and Sun with no DW. I can give you many more examples. OK, I'll agree with you that something was causing the oscillation that led to the DW. If nothing is found, and we don't want to spend a bunch on new tires just to find out, I think most of us would be very happy to resolve the DW for a $40 shock. By no means am I saying we always replace the shock first, of course not. Many times we find an obvious problem. But when we don't, and the shock is questionable, we replace it, and sometimes that cures the DW.

 

[shelbyluvv]

Again... Richard, replacing the steering damper is not curing the DW. It is simply masking the problem. That is my point. You are not curing the problem by replacing a steering stabilizer.

[carnuck]

On the other link above about suspension I pointed out that one cause of death wobble was likely from the lighter duty tierods and draglink playing skipping rope with the big tires and lift adding to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Goatman]

5 hours ago, shelbyluvv said:

Again... Richard, replacing the steering damper is not curing the DW. It is simply masking the problem. That is my point. You are not curing the problem by replacing a steering stabilizer.

 

I guess it's just semantics. You have DW, you change something, now you don't. Based on your never ending argument, I'm betting most of us would rather have DW that we don't actually experience (no symptom) after spending $40 bucks than save the $40 and have DW that we do actually experience. I bet you don't take cold medicine, since it only removes the symptom (no more runny nose and cough) since it can't actually cure the cold.

 

DW comes from an oscillation. If the oscillation is not allowed to start (even if it's just the dreaded shock) do you still have DW even though it never actually happened?

 

Can you have DW and not know it, just because you don't experience any symptoms?           

[DirtyComanche]

Schrodinger and his damn cat has visited this thread.

[Dzimm]

9 minutes ago, DirtyComanche said:

Schrodinger and his damn cat has visited this thread.

Yes, yes he has. 

[HOrnbrod]

More like Oyaji.

[Dzimm]

9 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

More like Oyaji.

Lol I'm assuming you're using that as a verb?  Without opinions I don't think some of these threads would go anywhere or have nearly as much useful info, but then again there is a difference between voicing your opinion and forcing it down everyone's throat...  

[Dzimm]

On 10/26/2017 at 3:47 PM, shelbyluvv said:

If I can run without a stabilizer on this big girl there is no reason why an MJ can't

 

I did want to question the statement above in regards to not using a steering stabilizer on the big 2500.   Wouldn't bump steer be more common in a lighter vehicle, thus requiring a steering stabilizer if it's lighter? 

 

The shear weight of a 2500 with a Cummins should be enough to eliminate bump steer almost entirely but would have worse side affect when bump steer does occur without the stabilizer (ie. If a bump were big enough to cause bumpsteer in that big of a truck, the higher weight of the truck being thrown back and forth would be a huge issue in keeping control of the truck).  With the lightweight chassis of the MJ, bump steer would be a bugger problem as it would occur wayyyy more often but  wouldn't cause loss of control as easily due to the lighter weight of the vehicle. 

 

Just thinking about the physics of this argument it doesn't make sense to me, I COULD BE ENTIRELY WRONG but I don't think it works that way.  You can get away without a steering stabilizer in a bigger truck because it would take a very large bump to cause bump steer (that you would see and avoid), whereas a smaller truck like the MJ absolutely should have a steering stabilizer because even small, unnoticeable bumps cause bump steer.  

 

I'm sure we can all agree that bump steer is bad no matter what. 

But couldn't bump steer start the oscillation that turns into the death wobble?  If so, then it would make sense to run a steering stabilizer to eliminate bump steer all together.  Still there are other issues that are probably present that are the true root of the death wobble that need fixed as well, but a good steering stabilizer seems like a must in these small trucks to me. 

[shelbyluvv]

The size of the vehicle doesn't matter. A Cummins will get DW just as easy as a MJ. The suspension and steering design are the same. Fords get it too. All solid axle vehicles can get. I have had it in a M813 5 Ton with super single tires. By your argument my V8 WJ should have never gotten DW because the vehicle was heavier. The WJ is one of the worst vehicles for DW because they moved the control arm mounts closer to the center.

[Dzimm]

6 minutes ago, shelbyluvv said:

The size of the vehicle doesn't matter. A Cummins will get DW just as easy as a MJ. The suspension and steering design are the same. Fords get it too. All solid axle vehicles can get. I have had it in a M813 5 Ton with super single tires. By your argument my V8 WJ should have never gotten DW because the vehicle was heavier. The WJ is one of the worst vehicles for DW because they moved the control arm mounts closer to the center.

I definitely agree, death wobble is a problem in any vehicle like you describe. I was more talking about bump steer than death wobble.  It makes sense to me that bump steer would be more common in a lighter vehicle and that you can get away without a steering stabilizer in the big truck because of the weight of the truck.  

 

I just wanted to make this little statement/argument because I felt the thread started to trend towards the thought that the steering stabilizer was there to prevent death wobble when that is entirely not the case.  It's there to prevent bump steer.  

 

I do feel however that bump steer could be the start of a slight oscillation that makes the death wobble start but the death wobble's true cause is something else within the suspension.