Turn Signals Out

[Norton]

Still getting a faint indication on the dash but my turn signals gradually gave out the other day. 
 

Hazards work fine, so I know the flasher relay is good

Brake and headlights work fine

Swapped the big circular silver fuse to no avail.

 

Getting a voltometer today to check battery/alternator although voltage seems fine throughout the system.

 

Wondering if anyone has any other ideas? I remember reading something about messing with the connector at the base of the steerng column but can’t seem to find it.

[eaglescout526]

There are two flasher relays. One for hazard and one for turn signal. 

[cruiser54]

THIS^^^^

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:45 PM, eaglescout526 said:

There are two flasher relays. One for hazard and one for turn signal. 

My turn signals sometimes stop working in hot weather.  Also if I turn off AC, turn signals immediately start working!   In one instance a few years back this was resolved when I got a new battery.  Happened again yesterday so I checked voltage with engine still running, AC on, and battery voltage was around 14.5V.  At the time I had not read this thread noting there are different flashers, so I did not know to try my hazards to see if they were acting the same.

 

I just looked at NAPA for turn signal flasher relays, in case that's it, and found over 10 choices!  The one or two noted as electronic, "I assume" are solid state so I get the difference there.  But of the others there were still many and it's not just different brands.  Some have 2 connector blades, some have 3, some have 2 with a pigtail!  What the heck is going on here?  Anyone have a particular favorite brand/part number they know is a good choice?  Is solid state more reliable?

 

[PIKE]

When I had problems with my turn signals it turned out to be the front sockets that the bulbs go into.

[XRT38]

Any ideas here about what might be going on will be appreciated.

 

What I have right now is both inside dash signal indicators stay lit when the park or headlights are turned on. The outside turn signals only flash on the side marker lights and not the park signal lights at any time, but both parking/signal lights will light and stay lit when they are turned on. 

 

The way this should work is that the side and front park/signal lamps alternate flashing & of course the interior dash indicators aren't lit all the time with the lights on.

 

* Notre> From 1990 on these should alternate between each other. That is, the park signal lights should flash & go out and then the side marker flashes and so the it all repeats. 89 & earlier don't alternate is my understanding. The markers stay solid and only the park/signal light flashes.

 

In trying to get this sorted out I had the signal flasher go out so I replaced it with a heavy duty flasher and that's how I got the side markers working as turn signals, but the instrument signal lights on the dash continue to stay lit whenever the headlights or parks are turned on. Again, the front signal/park lights don't flash at all and stay solid.

 

So somehow or somewhere there must be a relay or flasher between these two lights for them to alternate flashing? 

 

Hopefully that makes sense.

I know the 4 way flasher works, I know the signal flasher works, all the lights work normally other than the dash signal lights staying on with power to the park & headlights, & of course the parking/signal lamps aren't flashing but are lit. 

 

I don't grok how this thing is supposed to alternate flashing without some sort of relay grounding out the circuits alternately~

 

 

 

 

 

[eaglescout526]

13 minutes ago, XRT38 said:

What I have right now is both inside dash signal indicators stay lit when the park or headlights are turned on. The outside turn signals only flash on the side marker lights and not the park signal lights at any time, but both parking/signal lights will light and stay lit when they are turned on. 

First. What year is your MJ? 87-90 used really crappy ford sockets that have the worst ground tab in the world that has probably rusted out by now causing your indicators on the cluster to illuminate as they indicate a ground fault in the circuit. 
 

As for the flashing marker lights, if I recall correctly, the ground for that light to flash is shared somewhere in the turn signal circuit and I think it uses the filament for the flash as a ground until the flash turns on and thus the marker shuts off and turns on opposite to the turn signal. 

[XRT38]

 

Thanks, that was fast..

It's a 1990,  or so they claimed when I bought it in Jan of 1990. I've often sort of wondered about whether it really is a 1990 model year. Anyways that's what it's registered as.

 

By socket are you talking about the light bulb sockets & not a wiring socket?  All the wiring sockets look good & clean and like those shown in the thread on electrical sockets.

 

 

I cut the one on the drivers side open to replace the rusted out & broken ground with a soldering iron and then re-welded the plastic back together. I also bought a replacement socket in case # Dorman #85898 is an exact replacement even if they claim it isn't. Just checked today and it fits perfectly and looks exactly the same as original equipment.  Pretty sure they are both working normally and aren't rusted out and not making ground.

 

"As for the flashing marker lights, if I recall correctly, the ground for that light to flash is shared somewhere in the turn signal circuit and I think it uses the filament for the flash as a ground until the flash turns on and thus the marker shuts off and turns on opposite to the turn signal."

 

That's the thing about this, the parking lights don't flash at all. They will turn on with the parking light setting and with the headlights but won't flash. Meanwhile the markers do. I put a test light on the plugin up by the airbox that feeds the wiring harness for the lights and there's a grey wire which flashes the test light so I know it's getting a pulsed feed to the harness.

 

I replaced both marker light bulbs *194 the bayonet type so they are fine. I am beginning to wonder if those sockets are gonner's

[XRT38]

Also what's this silver cube thing under the signal flasher in this picture?  I unplugged it and cleaned the terminals. Not that any were bad to speak of but I've no clue what it is

In the truck it's on the bottom of the fuse panel 

 

[llhat]

6 hours ago, XRT38 said:

What I have right now is both inside dash signal indicators stay lit when the park or headlights are turned on.

what i used to see was this indicated there is a bulb out ....   in your case muliple, as i have seen either left or right and then find the bad blub

 

 

in your image above,   silver cylinder is hazard flasher,,   see the "haz" and down-pointing arrow?

the yellow is the turn flasher...  or potentially a buzzer for key in ignition or the like,  i don't have my electrical diagram handy.

 

yes, check those grounds,  and the light sockets at each light,  expect to replace some of them...

 

i do not know about the alternating side marker/park thing.

 

remember, the park light is one one filament in the bulb,  the turn is the other filament (brighter)

 

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

I had some screwy operation a while back, can't remember exactly what it was, and in my experimentation I replace the REAR turn signal bulbs, specified in the manual as #1156, with #2057 (which is what is specified for the FRONT turn signal lights), and the correct operation was restored.  Don't ask me to explain it, but it worked.  That was several years ago and other than the issue I get when it's 95 degrees out, all the signal lights work as they are expected to work.

[Eagle_SX4]

Defiantly replace your front turn signal sockets. I had to do that when I bought my truck and have not had an issue since. Here is a good video showing how to do it. 

 

[XRT38]

7 hours ago, llhat said:

what i used to see was this indicated there is a bulb out ....   in your case muliple, as i have seen either left or right and then find the bad blub

Reply: Bulbs are all good

 

 

in your image above,   silver cylinder is hazard flasher,,   see the "haz" and down-pointing arrow?

the yellow is the turn flasher...  or potentially a buzzer for key in ignition or the like,  i don't have my electrical diagram handy.

Reply: Not the hazard flasher in the photo, but that unmarked aluminum cube thingy,it must be a buzzer. First thing I did when I bought it was to disconnect the noise makers.  So maybe it is a buzzer.

 

yes, check those grounds,  and the light sockets at each light,  expect to replace some of them...

Reply: I think it's the side marker lights that are feeding back to the dash causing the dash signal lights to stay lit.

I just ordered 2 replacements and 2 front signal sockets.

 

i do not know about the alternating side marker/park thing.

 

remember, the park light is one one filament in the bulb,  the turn is the other filament (brighter)

Reply: Ok, thanks all info is good to keep in mind.

 

 

[XRT38]

7 hours ago, AnotherOldJeepGuy said:

I had some screwy operation a while back, can't remember exactly what it was, and in my experimentation I replace the REAR turn signal bulbs, specified in the manual as #1156, with #2057 (which is what is specified for the FRONT turn signal lights), and the correct operation was restored.  Don't ask me to explain it, but it worked.  That was several years ago and other than the issue I get when it's 95 degrees out, all the signal lights work as they are expected to work.

 

Reply: I know man, it's the craziest wiring system but probably much simpler than todays nightmare machines. I will update when the new parts to replace the side marker and front signal sockets arrive in about a week. I did take out the left rear signal and cleaned the ground, then disassembled the turn indicator sockets. Those are designed to come apart BTW, then cleaned out masses of hard old dielectric grease and repacked with new dielectric. Rear lights seem fine but I have to do the same to the passenger side now. 

[XRT38]

4 hours ago, Eagle_SX4 said:

Defiantly replace your front turn signal sockets. I had to do that when I bought my truck and have not had an issue since. Here is a good video showing how to do it. 

 

Thanks for the effort.  I fixed an original to better than new operation. Just use a soldering iron to melt the ground tunnel open and then cut the wire and solder a new chunk of scrap tin cut to fit to the wire, insert and then remelt the old plastic back over the hole. It's worked fine ever since. You should really stuff those full of dielectric grease to prevent corrosion.  Anyway's I did order a replacement socket and will put those in both parking/turn signals. Also Dorman Light Socket 85898 is an exact OEM replacement, even though it say's it isn't. Dorman part https://www.autozone.com/electrical-and-lighting/brake-lamp-socket/p/dorman-light-socket-85898/228423_0_0 is an exact OEM fit. I had one new and tested it yesterday in the lens. It's exactly the same fit including the too long back that makes stuffing it in stupidly un-necessarily difficult, but that's exactly how the factory socket fit. 

[XRT38]

Thanks everyone for your input. I will update when I get the parts to replace the sockets up front. I am strongly leaning towards believing that one of the marker sockets has lost it's ground is being grounded through the power to the other side marker bulb & evidently what that does is feed back to light interior dash marker/signal lights when you apply the parks or headlights. I don't think the turn signal sockets are bad but I'm going to replace the both of them and then do an autopsy on them to check. 

[Ωhm]

Click here:  Check connector C102.

[XRT38]

 

Update

First thanks for that help. I'll have to take your wiring and see if it crosses over correctly as best I can tell by looking at the images.

See this thread & 

 

 

 

So this evening the parts arrived. I got two new Dorman 3 wire park/turn lamp sockets installed but they are dorman part #85898 (Ford). Fit perfectly but the wire codes are different. It's got a red, white, & black wire.

 

I wired the red to the chassis blue power wire, the black to chassis black, and the brown to the chassis grey wire. 

https://www.autozone.com/electrical-and-lighting/brake-lamp-socket/p/dorman-light-socket-85898/228423_0_0

 

Evidently this is right. I also replaced the socket to the side marker light on the left side. I have the right as well but had to stop for the night.

 

Results are the left dash indicator light is no longer lit when the lights are on. The right side dash indicator is still lit. I assume the side marker socket on the right is a problem. I'll know tomorrow when I get that soldered in.

 

With the headlights/parks off the signals work, but do not alternate flashing, which is what the 1990 & up version do, mine always did. However at least now the parks do flash but only when the lights are out. When you turn the headlamps or parks on they stop.  So I'm hopeful that the problem goes to the side marker socket on the right side.

 

The most obvious issue was that when I stripped off some insulation on the Black Ground wire from the chassis it was corroded and I cleaning it up and soldered the replacement sockets wire to wire. 

 

The parking signal lights are now about 3X's brighter than they had been and left side marker light is also brighter than the one on the right (passenger side) that I haven't replaced yet. We will see tomorrow how or if that does anything.

 

I also have yet to get the Right rear tail light plugs de-gunked and repacked. They light and the signals & brake lights work but there's no doubt that cleaning those and repacking them some fresh dielectric grease is necessary after having done that on the driver side.  I strongly recommend doing that. That factory bulb grease was getting pretty stiff and offering little protection from rust.

 

So that's the deal for the moment. Small amount of headway but some progress. 

Edited July 2 by XRT38
Attach related thread info

[AnotherOldJeepGuy]

Sounds good so far, will be watching to see if that last front socket repair does the trick!

[XRT38]

Still no changes since the last up-date.  I have functional turn indicators, but not the way they were working, and not the way they are designed to work, and so the front signals work normally with the lights off,  but only the front signal lights flash and not together with the side markers, which they should flash alternating from the front park signal lamps to the side markers and back and forth between the two, and that's how all 1990 & up should work and how mine have always worked. That's a distinctive change between the 1989 and 1990 model year.  So now with the parks or headlamps on the side marker flash alone and act as the turn indicators, so it's half right, but the front parking/signal lamps still just remain solid and don't flash, and the crazy part of this that they do when the head lights are off,  but when you put the headlights or parking lights on then the park/signal front lights don't flash at all.

 

Consequently I bought a continuity probe to check the wiring plug which is spotless and then to begin checking other connections. I am leaning towards the headlamp light switch to be a possible cause as that seems so related. 

 

Someone said the front parking indicator lamps are single element bulbs but the only ones listed are 2057 and those are dual element bulbs. It's what's in it and they are fairly new and worked fine till this wonky business started.  

[eaglescout526]

50 minutes ago, XRT38 said:

Someone said the front parking indicator lamps are single element bulbs but the only ones listed are 2057 and those are dual element bulbs.

That’s…not right at all. The fronts signal/running lamps are dual. The dimmer filament is for the running and brighter is for the signals. It kinda sounds like you might have the filament wires reversed. Just a guess.