Elephant in the room.

[Manche’nopoulos]

Here’s a couple quotes as food for thought.

“The wise man does not expose himself needlessly to danger, since there are few things for which he cares sufficiently; but he is willing, in great crises, to give even his life - knowing that under certain conditions it is not worthwhile to live. “

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. “ Samuel Adams

[Pete M]

I don't see what it is that we're "giving up".  these have all been laws that were already on the books.  I've seen nothing new.  Just because it's the first time you've personally experienced it doesn't mean it's unprecedented.  ask those that lived through Hurricanes or huge snowstorms.  get-the-heck-off-the-street declarations are not new and none have ever become permanent.  I fear nothing from this except my father, sister and grandmother contracting it as they are all in that very-likely-to-die category. 

 

calm down, take the CDC's recommendations seriously and stop overthinking it. 

 

we can all riot later if I'm proven wrong. 

[Manche’nopoulos]

I’m not saying we start burning down buildings. I’m saying we need to start a discussion about exactly what we will tolerate, and how we make sure this deal gets reined back in once this virus is dealt with.

I am mostly curious about y’all’s thoughts. 
Also find it necessary to remember that we can actually take care of each other and not everyone is a sheeple as Jeep driver alludes. 

[Manche’nopoulos]

15 minutes ago, Pete M said:

I don't see what it is that we're "giving up".  these have all been laws that were already on the books.  I've seen nothing new.  Just because it's the first time you've personally experienced it doesn't mean it's unprecedented.  ask those that lived through Hurricanes or huge snowstorms.  get-the-heck-off-the-street declarations are not new and none have ever become permanent.  I fear nothing from this except my father, sister and grandmother contracting it as they are all in that very-likely-to-die category. 

 

calm down, take the CDC's recommendations seriously and stop overthinking it. 

 

we can all riot later if I'm proven wrong. 

Your post on knowledge being the best and most necessary element in this situation is spot on. 

[Pete M]

and the knowledge has been painfully slow in coming.    but it's a new thing and the world is playing catch up. 

[Eagle]

On 3/20/2020 at 9:10 AM, 89 MJ said:

I agree, nobody is protesting, but you aren’t allowed to be in a group of greater than 10 people here in WI. 

 

True, but I question even that. If one of the ten has the beer virus coming in, all ten might have it going out. Maybe it's because of the people I associate with, but I'm actually a bit pissed off that some people don't want to limit personal interactions. I talked to one of my high school classmates yesterday -- she's staying at home. A friend across town isn't a senior citizen and isn't in any of the high risk classifications, but he's keeping himself and his family buttoned in.

 

The thing is, we (the United States) started all these precautions about a month too late. The better we control the ways it can spread, the sooner the pandemic will burn itself out and we can start trying to get life back to normal.

[Eagle]

On 3/21/2020 at 3:18 PM, Manche’nopoulos said:

Security may be nice, but freedom is better. They can make all the suggestions they want and I honestly believe most of us would be happy to comply. There would be a few who don’t but that is the risk you run with a free society. It bothers me that we have all bought into an elitist attitude that some people are to stupid to trust and therefore we need a government to tell us what we can and cannot do.

 

 

In the case of a massively communicable disease, "most" people complying is not enough. In China, they traced something like 30 cases to ONE man who rode a bus, then transferred to a second bus. He didn't even sit near people. They've reviewed surveillance tapes from the buses -- people who were infected were seated six feet and more away from him.

 

There is nothing "elitist" about thinking that people (as a whole) can't be trusted when "people" prove it every day. Take Spring break in Florida. Hundreds of students went to Miami in spite of the coronavirus, and were partying on the beach as if there wasn't any problem. And you can't say, "Well, it's their own fault if they get sick." Yeah -- it is. The problem is how many other people are those students going to infect?

 

How about that father who has two daughters? The older daughter came home from college with symptoms, the local health department told the family to self quarantine, but the younger daughter really REALLY wanted to attend the father/daughter dance at her ritzy prep school -- so they went to the dance. Then the county had to monitor a couple of hundred people instead of a family of four.

 

Who's the elitist?

 

[mjeff87]

2.25M new unemployment claims are expected to be filed on Monday.  My God, what have they done.

 

Meanwhile, I can't find a friggin bag of white rice to save my life.  At the Walmart today, there was near mass pandemonium.  People had carts piled up so high they had to stand on the sides of them to keep all the crap from falling out.  Then you see an old guy with a 'Nam or Korea ball cap on that can't even walk, trying to buy some freakin dinty Moore beef stew getting pushed out of the way so folks can buy their great value Mac and cheeses for the 17 kids they never should have spawned in the first place.

 

I'm gonna shut up now, because I can't say any more without really getting political.  Jeep Driver, we may not always see eye-to-eye on some stuff, but you, and Manchenopolis are spot on.  I'll meet up with y'all on the other side some day.  Lol.

[Pete M]

humans are panicky idiots.   And it appears that the more the government tries to tell them to knock it off, the more panicky they become.  Happens with every hurricane and snowstorm.  Heck, the mere threat of ice causes the stores in Atlanta to sell out and the worst snowstorm in the last decade down there was 5 whole inches and the snow disappeared within 4 days.  Most snowfalls are gone without a trace within 24 hrs.  Do they really not have food to last another 24 hrs?  There's a reason why northerners laugh at them. 

 

I'm curious as to how you guys would differently combat this pandemic if you were in charge.  How would you keep the population safe?

[Manche’nopoulos]

16 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

In the case of a massively communicable disease, "most" people complying is not enough. In China, they traced something like 30 cases to ONE man who rode a bus, then transferred to a second bus. He didn't even sit near people. They've reviewed surveillance tapes from the buses -- people who were infected were seated six feet and more away from him.

 

There is nothing "elitist" about thinking that people (as a whole) can't be trusted when "people" prove it every day. Take Spring break in Florida. Hundreds of students went to Miami in spite of the coronavirus, and were partying on the beach as if there wasn't any problem. And you can't say, "Well, it's their own fault if they get sick." Yeah -- it is. The problem is how many other people are those students going to inject?

 

How about that father who has two daughters? The older daughter came home from college with symptoms, the local health department told the family to self quarantine, but the younger daughter really REALLY wanted to attend the father/daughter dance at her ritzy prep school -- so they went to the dance. Then the county had to monitor a couple of hundred people instead of a family of four.

 

Who's the elitist?

The elitist is anyone who thinks that they or the government must protect people from themselves. 
 

Like Pete said, knowledge is key. You have to inform people of the risk, educate, and publicize facts. Should people limit their exposure? Absolutely. 
I have no problem with the recommendations. I have a problem with recommendations becoming regulations. 
Persuasion and reason are the tools we should be utilizing to assure compliance. (And as many have pointed out, it should have started months ago but our wonderful media is too busy bashing or defending every political move made)

I don’t blame people for panicking really. We went from “Don’t worry about it, it’s a bad flu and it’s far away.” To, “Governor so-and-so has ordered all persons to self quarantine in their homes until further notice.” That’s ridiculous.
Now we justify it all by assuring ourselves it’s all necessary because after all, people are stupid and can’t be trusted. 
Any person with a fully functioning brain can make reasonable choices if informed. 
 I think we need to hold our government, and media accountable for the lack of information leading up to this. As well as the panicked response. 
Lastly, let’s take this as a lesson in the absolute necessity of reason, logic, and factual information in decision making, rather than feelings as has been the theme lately. 

[JustEmptyEveryPocket]

10 minutes ago, Manche’nopoulos said:

Any person with a fully functioning brain can make reasonable choices if informed.

That is an unfortunate amount of idealism. And its completely misplaced.

 

I work as a Professor of Mathematics. Interacting with the future leaders of this world on a daily basis leaves me in constant fear of what is coming, or because of this current pandemic, is already here. For the last 30 years (possibly longer) the public school system has been doing its best to keep children from learning logic and reasoning. The only purpose of public schools are to make a better menial worker. Ones who won't think for themselves and merely obey orders.

 

The other compounding factor is the continual and nonstop force feeding of doom and gloom from all sources. Media is the largest contributor, but all sources play their part. This has weakened our resolve and removed our fear of death. Listen to any of the spring break interviews. This fatalistic theory has been ingrained for too long.

 

We are now seeing the outcome of this system. Isn't it glorious?

 

Obviously the above doesn't apply universally. But it does hold true for the vast majority of the sub 30-somethings out there.

[mjeff87]

It all boils down to personal responsibility.  I've got a firm commitment to my wife, her family and what's left of my small family.  That's IT.

 

Meanwhile, the stock market has completely crashed (and will eventually recover, but not in time for me).  All my life I played by the rules, scrimped, saved, invested so I wouldn't have to work until I died at my job.  Gone.  And for what?

 

Ill get by, no doubt.  But my entire outlook on things has made a very sudden swerve in a different direction.

 

Ive been watching CNN for the last couple days (on purpose).  They have a corona-counter ticker thing on the side of the screen.  If you go by their numbers, the mortality rate of the virus worldwide is .03%.  The US mortality rate is .01%.  Neither of those are a typo.  Considering the global population in 2020 is reported at 7.8 billion (with a B), that works out to .00003%.

 

Why?

[Pete M]

that assumes that the stock market wouldn't have also crashed after the entire country was sick and 8 million people died.  not to mention the world's economy after another 150 million died and other countries closed their borders and shut down trade.  There may have been nothing that could have prevented a drastic downturn.  

 

 

[Manche’nopoulos]

34 minutes ago, JustEmptyEveryPocket said:

That is an unfortunate amount of idealism. And its completely misplaced.

 

I work as a Professor of Mathematics. Interacting with the future leaders of this world on a daily basis leaves me in constant fear of what is coming, or because of this current pandemic, is already here. For the last 30 years (possibly longer) the public school system has been doing its best to keep children from learning logic and reasoning. The only purpose of public schools are to make a better menial worker. Ones who won't think for themselves and merely obey orders.

 

The other compounding factor is the continual and nonstop force feeding of doom and gloom from all sources. Media is the largest contributor, but all sources play their part. This has weakened our resolve and removed our fear of death. Listen to any of the spring break interviews. This fatalistic theory has been ingrained for too long.

 

We are now seeing the outcome of this system. Isn't it glorious?

 

Obviously the above doesn't apply universally. But it does hold true for the vast majority of the sub 30-somethings out there.

The abandonment of reason is certainly unfortunate and no doubt one of the major contributors to this problem. I hope this is a major wake up call:

Also, as MJeff says, personal responsibility is another thing we need to resurrect. At some point we need to realize that if there is an answer to this thing, it lies in the hands of citizens and not the government. Independent research, and the free market will be where solutions lie. Not an political party or government agency. 
Of course the only works if we can get people to see that, engage their brains, and take responsibility. I’m interested in ideas on how to do that. It seems to me that the answer is to get people to realize there are things we CAN DO and ways we can help. Obviously following the CDC recommendations is a start, and someone mentioned earlier people making masks and ventilator adaptors to address those kinds of concerns. 
We should recognize the potential of the American people for good and not only for our aptitude at stupidity. 
 

[mjeff87]

I don't say this to virtue signal, but right now I can (and will) lock my place down with my wife and the cats.  We can be good for 2 months of regular living, and could stretch that double with some Spartan-like lifestyle changes.

 

Thats the way I was raised, and how I live.  Right now, if you aren't prepared to do similar (excepting those in extenuating circumstances, i.e. elderly, invalid, handicapped, etc.) you are an idiot and I wish you well.  To those that truly need help, or are willing to reciprocate in kind, what's mine is yours.

 

[Pete M]

22 minutes ago, Manche’nopoulos said:

At some point we need to realize that if there is an answer to this thing, it lies in the hands of citizens and not the government. Independent research, and the free market will be where solutions lie. Not an political party or government agency. 

 

It is the hands of the citizens and it would appear that a huge chunk of them are currently being reckless and endangering a lot of other peoples' lives.  now what do you do?  nothing?  do we just give up and sacrifice the predicted 2% of americans?  This is a war we are fighting and the government and the people and the market all need to chip in.  It's a group effort.  Only the big G has the money to throw around, only the people can do their part, and only the companies can move fast enough to try and keep up with demand. 

[Pete M]

but enough of the negatives.  how about some positives?  what has made you smile lately?  I heard that a few of Michigan's breweries have switched over to producing hand sanitizer and at least one is donating everything to like the red cross or something.  and several local manufacturing companies have started production of ventilator parts.  god knows the toilet paper plants have tried hard to step it up.  

 

 

[Jeep Driver]

7 minutes ago, mjeff87 said:

you are an idiot and I wish you well.

I'll bounce off your post-

 

Conventional wisdom says- We have a consumer economy. 

Well, as with most conventional wisdom, they are wrong. 

 

We have production based economy. If I cannot produce, I certainly cannot consume. 

 

It's clear none of you run a small business.

 

Where I left, my home, Tampa/Clearwater/St Pete, the local economy and for most of that state, is supported by the 'hospitality' industry. 40% are currently unemployed.

2-3 weeks and all will bounce back, 2-3 months and the economy is Devastated beyond repair. 

 

What do you do when 40% of a given population is starving to death?

 

Here, he will explain the government intrusion better than I can- worth every bit of your 5 minutes. 

 

Also, we now have a new class of people- the Essential and the non-Essential. 

 

 

[mjeff87]

There's a local distillery here, the owners are in my wife's jujitsu club.  They are very small batch, just started up last year.  They just landed a contract to switch all their distilling equipment over to ethanol production to support the hand sanitizer industry.  I hope they make millions off of this thing.  Couldn't happen to any better people

 

And I fixed my garage freezer today and sewed my tomato seeds for this year in individual starter pots (inside).   Yay.

[thecodemonk]

but enough of the negatives.  how about some positives?  what has made you smile lately?  I heard that a few of Michigan's breweries have switched over to producing hand sanitizer and at least one is donating everything to like the red cross or something.  and several local manufacturing companies have started production of ventilator parts.  god knows the toilet paper plants have tried hard to step it up.  
 
 

I've seen more families spending time together in their communities than ever before, at least here. Largely as a result of people suddenly having more time at home (even if working from home).

I've also seen several churches finally get the green light to get streaming services going and are able to reach far more people than before, while actually having more time to serve their communities by delivering food to the elderly and those who are struggling financially.

So far, all of this has been intensely positive for the community as a whole here (obviously nothing will ever be 100% perfect, but a LOT of good had come from it).

Amusingly enough, as left leaning as my state tends to be, they've purposefully resisted a command to stay at home and stuck with just recommendations (while constantly reminding people that there is still too many people ignoring them).

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

[mjeff87]

What really struck me as freakishly weird, I was up and about Thursday (I took off work).  There were hundreds of birds out in flocks.  Combination of spring here, plus a limited amount of vehicles on the road, and they were everywhere.  Kind of a Tippy Hedron situation, actually

[Eagle]

2 hours ago, Manche’nopoulos said:

The elitist is anyone who thinks that they or the government must protect people from themselves. 
 

 

No, the elitist in the example I cited was the selfish twit who thought taking his daughter to a school dance was more important than following the recommendations of the county health department -- recommendations that were made expressly to protect other people from people like him and his daughter.

 

Quote

Like Pete said, knowledge is key. You have to inform people of the risk, educate, and publicize facts. Should people limit their exposure? Absolutely. 
I have no problem with the recommendations. I have a problem with recommendations becoming regulations. 
Persuasion and reason are the tools we should be utilizing to assure compliance. (And as many have pointed out, it should have started months ago but our wonderful media is too busy bashing or defending every political move made)

 

 

Recommendations become requirements when people don't follow the recommendations, and put other people at risk as a result. It's like the old saying in regard to the First Amendment: "Your right of free expression ends when your fist approaches my nose." No one has a right to put other people at risk by engaging in selfish (i.e. "It's my right to ___") behavior.

 

Quote

Now we justify it all by assuring ourselves it’s all necessary because after all, people are stupid and can’t be trusted. 
Any person with a fully functioning brain can make reasonable choices if informed. 
 

 

Then there must be a lot of people in this country, and in this world, who don't have fully functioning brains, because there are a lot of people whose actions so far have forced the government to close things down. Obviously, you think that people can and should be trusted to do the right thing. I've been on this ball of rock long enough to know that people canNOT be trusted to do the right thing. They prove it every day. If you can't see that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Manche’nopoulos]

12 minutes ago, Pete M said:

 

It is the hands of the citizens and it would appear that a huge chunk of them are currently being reckless and endangering a lot of other peoples' lives.  now what do you do?  nothing?  do we just give up and sacrifice the predicted 2% of americans?  This is a war we are fighting and the government and the people and the market all need to chip in.  It's a group effort.  Only the big G has the money to throw around, only the people can do their part, and only the companies can move fast enough to try and keep up with demand. 

Not when people are not allowed to work, run businesses, or have a meeting of 10 people or more (such as a brainstorming session, conference etc.)

but I digress.

As far as positives, I’m encouraged by the willingness overall to deal with this thing. Hospitals here are gearing up and coming out with rather ingenious ways to prevent infection spreading. A lot of landlords are postponing rent etc. People are banding together despite the “social distancing” and widespread fear. 
There are still good people in the world.

[mjeff87]

We, the people, will solve this.  We always do.

[Jeep Driver]

5 hours ago, rokinn said:

@Jeep Driver, I really don't desire to get personal and I know your vehement retort is assured but nothing you have listed there can be classified as a fact except perhaps your feelings toward the whole of mankind.

 

You listed the Bible as one of the books we all should read in the books to read portion of the Pub.  Might I suggest these two passages for review (just 2 among many).

 

  1 John 4:20-21 - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

Mark 12:31 - And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

 

Pandemics pop up periodically and people die when they otherwise wouldn't!  Incompetent reactions, superstitious attitudes and beliefs make the problems worse which cause more deaths than might have been.  And yes, I classify paranoid conspiracy theories as superstition. 

 

Massive testing is necessary to find out who has the virus and to isolate them.  Unfortunately we do not have this capability due to incompetence, lack of foresight and outright denial.  The next best thing is social distancing until a cure or vaccine can be developed.  Perhaps you might enjoy a nice relaxing cruise to sooth your hatred of humanity.

 

My apologies to others reading my post but sometimes some things just piss me off.

 

 

 

The two verses you referred to were stripped from Leviticus 19, read it in context. 

 

In context, my 'brother' or my neighbor would have been living in the land of Canaan as an Israelite. One nation under One God. 

I would have been commanded to love my neighbor, not the entire world. My neighbor would have lived by the Law and we have be of one mind or of like-mind.

We both would have been equally accountable to One God. 

We both would have been among the Righteous.

 

Even the 'poor' or the sojourner (ger) would have been considered among the Righteous. Only the Righteous were permitted to reside among the Israelites.

 

Once you actually study the bible, once you come to understand who the Righteous are and who the unrighteous are...........

 

I have no command, currently, to love my neighbor. Although, I do treat my neighbor with respect, there are no Righteous immediate to me. 

 

The biblically Righteous are the smallest group in the world, very few.