Replacing Brake Distribution block

[dinghyboy]

I had a rear brake line rust through and figured now would be a good time to do a load sensing valve delete. I've obtained an XJ distribution block and plan on running a new single hard brake line to the the rear to join into the soft hose.

 

I'm having a hard time getting the brake lines to separate from the distribution block and am hoping someone will have some suggestions. I guess 27 years of heat and corrosion have welded the  couplings in place. I am using a good quality flare nut wrench and it is not slipping (yet) but either I'm not strong enough or it's too tight in the area around the distribution block.

 

I know I could just cut the rear lines but don't want to cut the front lines, particularly the one that goes to the passenger side front wheel since it's the hardest to route properly.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks,

 

Gavin

[Pete M]

I've redone the brakelines on 2 MJs now (one with all pre-made lines, one where I made my own).  you don't have to route it exactly like stock.  it just has to be safe and out of the way of future work.   

 

given any though to the dual booster mod?  now might be a good time if you're re-doing the lines.

[Dzimm]

I recently did this to my 92 (link in my signature, page 2).  Went ahead and installed a dual diaphram booster as well since it was apart and I had it on hand.  I'd recommend doing it on yours while it's apart because it's a great upgrade.  Replace all the lines too if you have the money.  The front passenger line isn't as bad as you'd think.  I had to replace the fittings on the upper lines as the MJ and later XJ fittings aren't the same size, depending on what year XJ your dist block came from, you may need to replace them anyway. 

 

As for removing the lines, use a pair of vise grips.  Get a corner of the nut in a groove of the vise grips and it should break loose without too much damage.  Use a 19mm open end wrench to hold your dist block so it doesn't twist, this may help get it broke loose.  

 

[mjeff87]

If you do end up boogering up the flared fittings, you can use a small (6") pipe wrench to turn them.  I carry one in my toolbag, and that's exclusively why I carry it (especially in junkyards).

[AZJeff]

I normally use flare wrenches to loosen older brake tube fittings.  If they don't want to cooperate without excessive force, I always break out the propane torch and heat the fitting a bit.  It never fails to get it apart.

 

Heat is your friend on frozen threaded joints.

[coolwind57]

i deleted my brake distro block altogether with no regrets.  Freaked a couple people out here on the forum, but Cruiser54 has successfully done a few.  I've had no negative issues and much-improved braking with even the stock booster.   It's another option for you to look and and evaluate.  

[AZJeff]

2 hours ago, coolwind57 said:

i deleted my brake distro block altogether with no regrets.  Freaked a couple people out here on the forum, but Cruiser54 has successfully done a few.  I've had no negative issues and much-improved braking with even the stock booster.   It's another option for you to look and and evaluate.  

So when you say you deleted the block, I assume  you then take the front axle output from the MC, and "tee" that output to sent it to each front wheel.  (The rear, of course, is  "tee-d" on the rear axle.)

 

The only thing you loose doing this is the brake imbalance warning light function.  If you are diligent about vehicle maintenance and care, that is of dubious value.

[cruiser54]

21 hours ago, AZJeff said:

I normally use flare wrenches to loosen older brake tube fittings.  If they don't want to cooperate without excessive force, I always break out the propane torch and heat the fitting a bit.  It never fails to get it apart.

 

Heat is your friend on frozen threaded joints.

 

 

Yeah, but you have an unfair advantage!!! You live in Arizona.............

[coolwind57]

13 hours ago, AZJeff said:

So when you say you deleted the block, I assume  you then take the front axle output from the MC, and "tee" that output to sent it to each front wheel.  (The rear, of course, is  "tee-d" on the rear axle.)

 

The only thing you loose doing this is the brake imbalance warning light function.  If you are diligent about vehicle maintenance and care, that is of dubious value.

 

This is what I did:

1.  Removed front proportional block.  Install inverted flare T to the front brake lines. 

2.  Removed both rusty lines going to rear (Height Leveling Valve had already been bypassed by PO).

3,  Installed single brake line to rear, with adjustable proportioning valve installed under the hood near the master cylinder.

[coolwind57]

13 hours ago, AZJeff said:

So when you say you deleted the block, I assume  you then take the front axle output from the MC, and "tee" that output to sent it to each front wheel.  (The rear, of course, is  "tee-d" on the rear axle.)

 

The only thing you loose doing this is the brake imbalance warning light function.  If you are diligent about vehicle maintenance and care, that is of dubious value.

 

I suppose I didn't really answer your question with my first response:  I completely removed the entire proportional block and tossed it in the trash. 

 

I copied the majority of my write-up for you to ponder upon.  Pluses and minuses to everything, my friend.  This thing I did drives a couple of people crazy that I "illegally" removed my brake warning light.  These same guys have probably cut out their catalytic converter.  Anyhow:

 

 

MY SITUATION:  Original front disc and rear drums.  Height Sensing Valve (HSV) half-assed deleted by PO.  Still had 2 old crappy rusty brakes lines running to rear.  Acceptable brakes as a whole, but redoing it all because I already have the truck apart anyway and didn't like the rusty, brittle looks of things.  Plan is to renovate brake system for added reliability and maybe even get some added performance as a bonus.    

 

I chose to start things off by trying Cruiser54's front Proportional Valve (PV) trash and replace procedure.  This seemed logical as a way of simplifying things and perhaps improving front brake performance..  Plus He's got real-world experience doing this and it has worked for him multiple times. 

 

I figured at least to me, that the MJ PV was designed to work a system that included the additional second brake line to the rear (to be used in cases of front brake failure) AND a system including a well-working HSV.  Since I now have neither, the MJ PV is no longer being used exactly according to its design with those two aspects missing.   

 

The MJ PV meters the front brakes down considerably after the brake line run into it from the master cylinder.  Just look up some of Cruiser54's pictures of those tiny little orifices in there.  Remove entire PV and then T-off to your front calipers, using an inverted flare brass T.  You should get better braking because the small orifices of the prop valve to the front brakes are eliminated.  You're now running near-full opening size of the hard brake lines that are coming off direct from the master cylinder.  Makes sense to me so I did it:

 

and here's a view from side/bottomp:

 

Now technically I should experience slightly better front brake because I have larger interior diameters running from the master cylinder on through to the calipers.  

 

Because I am eliminating some front and rear "bottle-necking" I used to have at the now-removed PV, I agree with many others here that an Adjustable Proportioning Valve  (APV) may be a good idea FOR THE REAR BRAKES.  This should eliminate any rear brake lockup that I may experience if I am running a heavy payload.   The original intent of this thread was to see where other guys were mounting their APVs.  I ended up deciding on mounting mine under the hood after all.  Even though TJ1 had a cool location on his rig, I ultimately sided with HOrnbrod's opinion of not having brake lines inside my cab.  Mounting near the rear of the bed would likely affect longevity and stable function due to full exposure to elements.  

 

I  completely eliminated my two old hard rear brake lines and ran a new single line back there the the axle.  So here's where I ended up mounting my APV:

 

I chose the Speedway APV because it is compact and appears to be simple and tough.  Another cool feature is that it allows for full shut down of fluid to the rears, which can possibly come in handy when working on your brakes.  

 

REMINDER:  If you've read much on the topic of HSV deleting/PV deleting/running a single line to your rears, keep in mind that you'll lose that safety feature that allows full braking to the rears in cases of front brake failure.  

 

Speedway didn't have comprehensive flow specs on that mini APV that I show in the picture.  it shows gpm and max psi and states that it can be completely shut down whatever line it is controlling if desired.  I was curious of flow characteristics during "fully open" setting.  

 

FYI for the benefit of anyone interested in this particular device, I sent them a message and here's their response:

 

Perry, I just spoke with one of my techs and he stated that it will not be fully open when the valve is fully open, there will still be some restriction there.

 

Thinking around 20% restriction, so it'll flow 80% of the fluid that a straight line will.

 

As far as I know, we do not offer a proportioning valve that will flow as if there is nothing there while fully open, however the purple proportioning valve might flow a little better as it is not a complete shutoff valve while fully closed, there will likely still be a bit of resistance there.

 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Purple-Adjustable-Brake-Proportioning-Valve,23498.html

 

 

My brakes ROCK now!  Got my MJ running last night and took her for a spin.  My brakes were not so bad to begin with.  But now they are excellent!  Feels like I have 4-wheel disc brakes. 

 

Many thanks to Cruiser54 for the advice on ridding the front proportional block.  I have killer good brakes, and I now have the ability to adjust the rears (or shut them down if I choose to)""

 

Additional notes: 

 

1. It took some active shopping around to find the correct sized fittings/adapters to use stock flare fittings and MC orifices with new....I didn't want to have to cut double flares on new and factory brake lines, so I had to use my brain a bit during shopping to avoid cutting/flaring.

 

2.  By design, I certainty now have isolation of from and rear brakes, for sure!  Front and rear have two different and very separate paths.  They obviously already have two different reservoirs inside your master cylinder.  My system continues from there to NOT cross paths with each other.  As I had mentioned in my original comment on this thread above, there are advantages and disadvantages to nearly anything you do.  I'm pushing full volume to my front brake calipers now instead of dealing with a factory bottle neck.  Overall, front-and-back, I can say that I've got superior braking ability compared to what I originally had.  And at great cost and time savings.  Disadvantage is that I may lose some "fail-safe" capabilities, if you will.  I will no longer have a working brake warning light.  I weighed perceived consequences, and then decided on my course of action.  This method works for me, no regrets.  

 

3.  If I lose my front brakes, I still have rear brakes, although the addition of the aftermarket adjustable prop valve doesn't give me full 100% use of the brake line ID.  I do not know to what degree my rear brakes assist my stopping if I suddenly lose my front.  In my 35+ years of driving, I don't recall ever running into the loss of brakes of either end, so I'm not too worried.   I can shut down my rear brakes totally if I want to.  If you like to show off and do burn-outs, then this is a nice feature!  This isn't me, but I give it as an example.  Shutting down rears is also nice if you're working on your rear brakes and want to shut off fluid completely.  

[AZJeff]

37 minutes ago, cruiser54 said:

 

 

Yeah, but you have an unfair advantage!!! You live in Arizona.............

True, but I also did my fair share of wrenching in Illinois, were I lived for 40 years.  I am, unfortunately, VERY familiar with what happens to flare fittings (and lots of other bolted joints) that spend much time in the "rust belt"

[Ωhm]

CW57, just curious here, is your brake warning switch connector just hanging there? If you jumper the connector or leave the BWS connected, you could at least get bulb check (BRAKE) during CRANK and your parking brakes to light the BRAKE bulb. This is no big deal here, only if your interested.

[coolwind57]

1 hour ago, Ωhm said:

CW57, just curious here, is your brake warning switch connector just hanging there? If you jumper the connector or leave the BWS connected, you could at least get bulb check (BRAKE) during CRANK and your parking brakes to light the BRAKE bulb. This is no big deal here, only if your interested.

 

I did not jumper it.  I'm pretty sure I just left it hanging.

[dinghyboy]

Thanks to all for the responses.  Soaked fittings for a couple of days with PB Blaster, bought sturdier Flare nut wrenches (NAPA) but the secret was using the 19mm Wrench to hold the distribution block to get better pressure on the flare nut while loosening.  Was able to get all 6 brake lines to release.

 

On to line replacement. I'm not going to do the brake booster upgrade at this time since I've been procrastinating fixing the brake lines for too long and need the truck back on the road but I'll certainly look into it for the future.

 

Thanks,

Gavin

[cruiser54]

You guys who live in the rust belts need to use something better than PB Blaster.

That stuff stinks.. Literally and figuratively.

 

Try CRC Freeze-Off. 

[JMO413]

I am a huge fan of aerokroil it comes in an orange can. It it's done good stuff for getting rusty stuff apart.

[brucecooner]

On 1/26/2019 at 7:30 AM, coolwind57 said:

 

I suppose I didn't really answer your question with my first response:  I completely removed the entire proportional block and tossed it in the trash. 

 

I copied the majority of my write-up for you to ponder upon.  Pluses and minuses to everything, my friend.  This thing I did drives a couple of people crazy that I "illegally" removed my brake warning light.  These same guys have probably cut out their catalytic converter.  Anyhow:

 

 

MY SITUATION:  Original front disc and rear drums.  Height Sensing Valve (HSV) half-assed deleted by PO.  Still had 2 old crappy rusty brakes lines running to rear.  Acceptable brakes as a whole, but redoing it all because I already have the truck apart anyway and didn't like the rusty, brittle looks of things.  Plan is to renovate brake system for added reliability and maybe even get some added performance as a bonus.    

 

I chose to start things off by trying Cruiser54's front Proportional Valve (PV) trash and replace procedure.  This seemed logical as a way of simplifying things and perhaps improving front brake performance..  Plus He's got real-world experience doing this and it has worked for him multiple times. 

 

I figured at least to me, that the MJ PV was designed to work a system that included the additional second brake line to the rear (to be used in cases of front brake failure) AND a system including a well-working HSV.  Since I now have neither, the MJ PV is no longer being used exactly according to its design with those two aspects missing.   

 

The MJ PV meters the front brakes down considerably after the brake line run into it from the master cylinder.  Just look up some of Cruiser54's pictures of those tiny little orifices in there.  Remove entire PV and then T-off to your front calipers, using an inverted flare brass T.  You should get better braking because the small orifices of the prop valve to the front brakes are eliminated.  You're now running near-full opening size of the hard brake lines that are coming off direct from the master cylinder.  Makes sense to me so I did it:

 

and here's a view from side/bottomp:

 

Now technically I should experience slightly better front brake because I have larger interior diameters running from the master cylinder on through to the calipers.  

 

Because I am eliminating some front and rear "bottle-necking" I used to have at the now-removed PV, I agree with many others here that an Adjustable Proportioning Valve  (APV) may be a good idea FOR THE REAR BRAKES.  This should eliminate any rear brake lockup that I may experience if I am running a heavy payload.   The original intent of this thread was to see where other guys were mounting their APVs.  I ended up deciding on mounting mine under the hood after all.  Even though TJ1 had a cool location on his rig, I ultimately sided with HOrnbrod's opinion of not having brake lines inside my cab.  Mounting near the rear of the bed would likely affect longevity and stable function due to full exposure to elements.  

 

I  completely eliminated my two old hard rear brake lines and ran a new single line back there the the axle.  So here's where I ended up mounting my APV:

 

I chose the Speedway APV because it is compact and appears to be simple and tough.  Another cool feature is that it allows for full shut down of fluid to the rears, which can possibly come in handy when working on your brakes.  

 

REMINDER:  If you've read much on the topic of HSV deleting/PV deleting/running a single line to your rears, keep in mind that you'll lose that safety feature that allows full braking to the rears in cases of front brake failure.  

 

Speedway didn't have comprehensive flow specs on that mini APV that I show in the picture.  it shows gpm and max psi and states that it can be completely shut down whatever line it is controlling if desired.  I was curious of flow characteristics during "fully open" setting.  

 

FYI for the benefit of anyone interested in this particular device, I sent them a message and here's their response:

 

Perry, I just spoke with one of my techs and he stated that it will not be fully open when the valve is fully open, there will still be some restriction there.

 

Thinking around 20% restriction, so it'll flow 80% of the fluid that a straight line will.

 

As far as I know, we do not offer a proportioning valve that will flow as if there is nothing there while fully open, however the purple proportioning valve might flow a little better as it is not a complete shutoff valve while fully closed, there will likely still be a bit of resistance there.

 

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Purple-Adjustable-Brake-Proportioning-Valve,23498.html

 

 

My brakes ROCK now!  Got my MJ running last night and took her for a spin.  My brakes were not so bad to begin with.  But now they are excellent!  Feels like I have 4-wheel disc brakes. 

 

Many thanks to Cruiser54 for the advice on ridding the front proportional block.  I have killer good brakes, and I now have the ability to adjust the rears (or shut them down if I choose to)""

 

Additional notes: 

 

1. It took some active shopping around to find the correct sized fittings/adapters to use stock flare fittings and MC orifices with new....I didn't want to have to cut double flares on new and factory brake lines, so I had to use my brain a bit during shopping to avoid cutting/flaring.

 

2.  By design, I certainty now have isolation of from and rear brakes, for sure!  Front and rear have two different and very separate paths.  They obviously already have two different reservoirs inside your master cylinder.  My system continues from there to NOT cross paths with each other.  As I had mentioned in my original comment on this thread above, there are advantages and disadvantages to nearly anything you do.  I'm pushing full volume to my front brake calipers now instead of dealing with a factory bottle neck.  Overall, front-and-back, I can say that I've got superior braking ability compared to what I originally had.  And at great cost and time savings.  Disadvantage is that I may lose some "fail-safe" capabilities, if you will.  I will no longer have a working brake warning light.  I weighed perceived consequences, and then decided on my course of action.  This method works for me, no regrets.  

 

3.  If I lose my front brakes, I still have rear brakes, although the addition of the aftermarket adjustable prop valve doesn't give me full 100% use of the brake line ID.  I do not know to what degree my rear brakes assist my stopping if I suddenly lose my front.  In my 35+ years of driving, I don't recall ever running into the loss of brakes of either end, so I'm not too worried.   I can shut down my rear brakes totally if I want to.  If you like to show off and do burn-outs, then this is a nice feature!  This isn't me, but I give it as an example.  Shutting down rears is also nice if you're working on your rear brakes and want to shut off fluid completely.  

 

Hi Coolwind. I'm looking at deleting my rear prop. valve for an under hood setup too. 

 

The issue I face is that I got the Wilwood prop. valve that seems to be the favorite, but due to its size there is no clear and obvious place to mount it near the master cylinder. I'm debating just deleting the windshield wiper fluid reservoir, or finding a smaller one, so I can have some space on the outboard/fender of the m. cylinder to mount the valve!

 

I really like your setup using the mini-valve here, as it's easier to find a place for, and being lightweight won't require a bracket to hold in place.

I think this is the one you're referring to...

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Compact-Adjustable-Brake-Proportioning-Valve,1979.html

 

Your post sounds like you must have gotten the rears dialed in and working with this setup, and I was curious to see how it has worked for you in the years since you installed it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:01 AM, coolwind57 said:

 

This is what I did:

1.  Removed front proportional block.  Install inverted flare T to the front brake lines. 

2.  Removed both rusty lines going to rear (Height Leveling Valve had already been bypassed by PO).

3,  Installed single brake line to rear, with adjustable proportioning valve installed under the hood near the master cylinder.

 

The MJ does not have a front proportioning block. It has a front distribution block. All proportioning is dome by the height sensing valve in the rear.

[cruiser54]

There's plenty of room for the standard sized adjustable prop valve. 

[brucecooner]

10 hours ago, Eagle said:

 

The MJ does not have a front proportioning block. It has a front distribution block. All proportioning is dome by the height sensing valve in the rear.

Yep, I'm hoping to move the proportioning functionality under the hood, seems to work well for lots of folks.

 

8 hours ago, cruiser54 said:

There's plenty of room for the standard sized adjustable prop valve. 

You got any pictures handy? 

My son and I tried holding it in different spots last night and were at a loss as to the best placement.

It seemed to fit on the inboard side of the m. cylinder okay, but getting to the fittings was going to be tight.

Also, will the hard lines hold that standard (larger) valve in place, or is a bracket required?

We could probably fashion one that comes off the m. cylinder bolts (most sold seem to do this), but even having room for nuts and bolt heads was iffy.

Has anyone mounted the valve under the cylinder?

 

 

[cruiser54]

I could do that. Take a picture. Don't let me forget. 

[brucecooner]

Interesting....

 

If you look closely at the picture of the mini adjustable valve on a Speedway product page...

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Motors-Brake-Proportioning-Valve-Kit-With-Fittings,387281.html

 

Etchings on the part indicate you are getting a Deltrol EF10B "flow control valve", detailed here...

https://deltrolfluid.com/products/in-line-valves/flow-control/flow-control-free-reverse-flow-adjustable/ef10b

 

The valve has NPT fittings, which may indicate its original use wasn't in automotive braking systems.

 

But anyway I guess a "brake proportioning valve" is just a "flow control valve" by another name.

A rose by any name right?

 

From what I've read a brake proportioning valve is just a valve that limits the maximum pressure output.

The output pressure increases to a set point (controlled by the dial in this case), then remains constant despite increasing input pressure.

 

I actually live near the Speedway store here in Phoenix, tempted to head over, pick one up and see if it works.

[cruiser54]

The NPT threads are used so you can get adapters from NPT to what ever brake line fitting you need. 

[coolwind57]

On 1/25/2023 at 2:58 AM, brucecooner said:

 

Hi Coolwind. I'm looking at deleting my rear prop. valve for an under hood setup too. 

 

The issue I face is that I got the Wilwood prop. valve that seems to be the favorite, but due to its size there is no clear and obvious place to mount it near the master cylinder. I'm debating just deleting the windshield wiper fluid reservoir, or finding a smaller one, so I can have some space on the outboard/fender of the m. cylinder to mount the valve!

 

I really like your setup using the mini-valve here, as it's easier to find a place for, and being lightweight won't require a bracket to hold in place.

I think this is the one you're referring to...

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Compact-Adjustable-Brake-Proportioning-Valve,1979.html

 

Your post sounds like you must have gotten the rears dialed in and working with this setup, and I was curious to see how it has worked for you in the years since you installed it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no regrets.  None.  I'll admit that even though I've traveled with heavy loads of rock or firewood and that I've never felt the need to adjust my speedway prop valve.  As you can see in the picture, I did not "hard mount" it.  It is simply installed in-line with no support.  I've not had a problem with it rattling or anything.  I now have a Dana 44 in the rear, I still have drum brakes and I'm still completely satisfied with my truck's braking.  

 

[coolwind57]

On 1/25/2023 at 4:48 AM, Eagle said:

 

The MJ does not have a front proportioning block. It has a front distribution block. All proportioning is dome by the height sensing valve in the rear.

You're correct.  Inaccurate choice of words.  Notice that on my Jan 25th comment here I referred to it as a "distro" block.  Next time I may end up calling it "that block thing."  haha