Incommando Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 So no surprise here. Fiat has always been crap and that was one of the main reasons they left this market decades ago. Unlike Ford and Caddy whose ratings were brought down by niggling infotainment system issues these Fiat nameplates have serious mechanical issues. The new 9speed auto in the 200/Dart/Cherokee triplets appears to be junk. The truck v6 diesel, just like thesame fiat owned VM motori diesel they tried in the liberty, is just as much junk as that I4 was. The 500 brings back levels of crappiness not seen here in decades. The car talk brothers said Fiats are the only cars they recommend buying an extended warranty for as they are that bad.MOPAR it was nice knowing you. You will be missed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyinajeep726 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Fix It Again, Tony! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasbulliwagen Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Being a dealer tech, I have yet to see many of the problems you are describing. Though we are a small dealer. Other than software updates I've heard of no issues with the 9 speed. And other than a guy filling his new Grand diesel full of gasoline I've also heard of no issues with them. The biggest issue we are seeing is with Dart radios. But this is just my experience and I haven't researched any of the issues you've described. But it wouldn't surprise me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incommando Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 This all started from the release of Consumer Reports yearly ratings. I am no Consumer Reports take it as gospel fan but it led me to googling & eaves dropping other forums. The diesel has numerous driveabilty complaints considering a fairly slow/low sales roll out. Fiat is famous for crappy cars and it just stands to reason that the more Fiat the other offerings become the worse they will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjrev10 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I heard through the grapevine that they where having trouble with the 9-speeds trans.... Nothing to back it up tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorcharge Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I wouldn't touch anything new MOPAR. Nothing newer than the WJ, TJ, 3rd gen Ram, ect. Challenger is about the only exception to that for me. I despise having to work on MOPAR stuff at work now. The engineering is flat out retarded, everything is made of plastic, the interiors are all bulky plastic that look and feel terrible. I'll admit the new Ram trucks ride nicer than mine, but they look terrible and the interior on them is god awful. Even worse than the interior on the later 3rd gen Rams. Chrysler has always been terrible but now they're just flat out ruining the Jeep and Ram brands. Especially the Ram trucks. Biggest thing going for them for years was being the only brand with a factory Cummins and they passed on the new one to put in a pos VM Motori diesel no one is going to want and now Nissan is getting the new Cummins and they don't even offer a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup. Jeep has been dead to me since they killed off the TJ and started producing crap like the new "Cherokee". I hadn't heard about issues with the diesels but it doesn't surprise me. The VM Motori motors have always been absolute garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComancheKid45 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Just like the rest of new junk thats produced now adays........ill keep my 80s technology, thanks ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incommando Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 80's cars ( Well early 70's- later 80's) are considered some of the worst vehicles ever...bad performance, mileage, and reliability for the most part. To be clear the worst new cars are probably light years ahead of nearly anything made 30 years ago. The Fiats may come close. If those vehicles were held to the same quality & safety/recall standards of today there would maybe be 3 models to choose from. I love my old cars and have owned dozens but as far as reliable transportation goes there were 20-25 really crappy years beginning around '71or so. Performance? A new 4dr Accord V6 auto is faster in the quarter mile at 14.6 seconds than the 1/4 times of an '89 Mustang GT = auto 15.2 & stick 14.8, 1982 Corvette = 16.2, or 1985 Monte Carlo SS = 15.9. The Bandit would have been better of pushing than driving that 17.7 second quarter mile bird turd he drove. He would even lose to the 1977 Mustang 302 which ran an astounding 17.5 in the quarter... yes 17.5 with a 5.0L V8 stuffed in a re-bodied Pinto sub-compact econo car. Whew. Blistering speeds. Throw in braking & handling which was almost non-existent.... For every mid-80's XJ driver there are 5 Citation's & 15 Escorts that were scrapped and turned into green bean cans 20 years ago. 100,000 miles used to be a major milestone in car reliability now failing to reach that is a bitter disappointment. That being said being better than a 1975 car but still being worse than any other 2014 Make still equates to being crap. And Fiat Chrysler is shoveling it by the ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankTheDog Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 That's why I look for high mileage one owner XJ's for daily drivers. If somebody put 150-200K on it it must of been a damn good vehicle. Worst vehicles I ever owned were under 50k and 3-4 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankTheDog Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 KKilmer had my old 1998 XJ, bought it with 207K on it and I sold it with 390K on it Only replaced your usual stuff brakes, waterpump, alternator, starter and radiator. He just sold it with 410K on it still running original engine. It never left us stranded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big66440 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I have made a statement like this before in another Mopar forum, I'm a hardcore Mopar fan but the Chrysler branch has been on a slippery downhill slope since the early 60's i think it all began when they got rid of the firepower Hemi's, aside from the rear wheel drive 300's I can't remember seeing a Chrysler in a very long time that could even come close to holding its own with Cadillac or Lincoln all they've done is rebadge Dodges and try to fool people into thinking they're a luxury brand somewhere along the line the Chrysler engineers/owners lost their edge in being the absolute best in the industry without trying to follow and imitate other car companies. I really hope they snap out of it and return to the way it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasbulliwagen Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 There was a good retort article in allpar.com showing a bunch of flaws in consumer reports ratings. Really makes you wonder about how much truth is really out there when certain people only want to report what is convenient for them or only what they want you to think. Are cars in general better than they used to be? Yes but there is still some that are better than others no matter who builds them. All the mfg's are having issues. I guess its just Chrysler Fiat's turn in the barrel. Even though GM has had the biggest F up lately with all the recalls. Guess their pockets are just deeper to cover story's up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incommando Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I used C.R. as the starting point not as gospel. If Ford in particular fixed all of the nav/audio/info glitches they would jump quite a bit. An issue with C.R. is that an audio screen that is two touchy counts as much as a bad tranny. But C.R. isn't the only ones that are rating the Fiat products as the worst though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big66440 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 There was a good retort article in allpar.com showing a bunch of flaws in consumer reports ratings. Really makes you wonder about how much truth is really out there when certain people only want to report what is convenient for them or only what they want you to think. Are cars in general better than they used to be? Yes but there is still some that are better than others no matter who builds them. All the mfg's are having issues. I guess its just Chrysler Fiat's turn in the barrel. Even though GM has had the biggest F up lately with all the recalls. Guess their pockets are just deeper to cover story's up. Really really true, I make a living selling parts to rebuild engines and let me tell you guys we make a HUGE amount of profit selling parts for Japanese engines, and I'm not talking about high mileage ones that are just tired and need a rebuild, not saying we don't sell parts for American cars either but its really sad how it seems like people turn a blind eye to problematic import cars or problems they have and the second an American car has any issue people are quick to curse them for "not knowing how to build cars". Besides I really believe it matters how much you put into your car to keep it alive, you can't drive a family sedan like a race car and not expect to brake something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Fiat and GM owned VM Motori 50/50. Fiat bought out GM's share. Those V6s are great motors and Gale Banks is already hot rodding them. Who do you think made the 2.5 diesel in the XJs overseas? To rate vehicles on infotainment systems? Come on Consumer Reports...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incommando Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 The 2.8 VM Motori as used in the Liberty was very problematic. The tons of money and time that owners spent to come up with a list of the minimum mods to give them daily reliability and driveability should never be required. Fiat's worldwide reputation for being crap is well-earned. A deep enough search would show that I have long championed American cars and panned Toyota in particular for being unscrupulous and over-rated. But Fiat and its products are not American. As with the Dart/200/Cherokee future products are much more likely to be re-bodied Fiats or imported Fiats like the Jeep Panda...er, Renegade. I don't recall ever hearing "damn those eyetalians make some reliable cars." :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjrev10 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I wouldn't touch anything new MOPAR. Nothing newer than the WJ, TJ, 3rd gen Ram, ect. Challenger is about the only exception to that for me. I despise having to work on MOPAR stuff at work now. The engineering is flat out retarded, everything is made of plastic, the interiors are all bulky plastic that look and feel terrible. I'll admit the new Ram trucks ride nicer than mine, but they look terrible and the interior on them is god awful. Even worse than the interior on the later 3rd gen Rams. Chrysler has always been terrible but now they're just flat out ruining the Jeep and Ram brands. Especially the Ram trucks. Biggest thing going for them for years was being the only brand with a factory Cummins and they passed on the new one to put in a pos VM Motori diesel no one is going to want and now Nissan is getting the new Cummins and they don't even offer a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup. Jeep has been dead to me since they killed off the TJ and started producing crap like the new "Cherokee". I hadn't heard about issues with the diesels but it doesn't surprise me. The VM Motori motors have always been absolute garbage. Ouch. Tell us how you really feel! I have a '14 JK and love it. Seems to be well built. No issues in 12k. Also have a '14 Patriot (wife's) that's is a absolute POS with 20k on it. My 98 XJ drives better and definitely feels like a better built rig. I'm surprised about your RAM comments.. I had a '12 outdoorsman CTD for about a year and thought it was a great truck...Everything about it except the light color interior that showed dirt like mad. We where thinking TrailHawk next year.... Might have to do some more research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 http://wardsauto.com/blog/ward-s-10-best-engines-spec-sheet-ram-30l-diesel http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1208dp_banks_vm_motori_630t_v6_diesel_engine/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Bull $#!&. The 2.8 is a great motor. It has a bad rap from neglect by owners in changing timing belts on schedule, and all the liberal emissions morons. That motor has zero issues overseas. And overseas, it has no egr. Here, they have an egr...and that ultimately leads to soot in the oil and damaged valvetrain. You need to keep to what you know. This whole thread is hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incommando Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Bull $#!&. The 2.8 is a great motor. It has a bad rap from neglect by owners in changing timing belts on schedule, and all the liberal emissions morons. That motor has zero issues overseas. And overseas, it has no egr. Here, they have an egr...and that ultimately leads to soot in the oil and damaged valvetrain. You need to keep to what you know. This whole thread is hilarious. I am sorry I read this without being signed in so I saw that drivel ^^^^ First off the overseas models at the time were mostly the 2.5 and they had differences. Derp. In case you have not figured it out we are not overseas. :rotf: Many of the mods needed for the 2.8 HERE consisted of using the Euro spec parts including the freaking torque converter. The converter, for example, was a multi-thousand dollar operation if you had to pay to have it done if ChryCo told you to pound salt. This change was needed due to a major torque converter shudder issue caused by a different converter being used HERE. A difficult to maintain ECM/TCM re-flash was also required with this mod. Dead battery? Back for a re-flash! Other things like the EHM ( elephant hose mod) were cooked up by owners trying to make these things reliable enough to drive daily. The dealer returns for problems on the CRD KJ were unbelievably high for a vehicle that only sold about 10,000 units in 3 model years HERE. Did you notice that it never made it into another model HERE? Although they did offer a package to put a 2.8 in custom apps I understand it sold about as well as ice cream cones at the North Pole. The CRD 2.8 had to be a complete pile of crap for "owner neglect" to require repairs and mods on vehicles within the first 12 months of ownership. So how much time did you spend with Liberty people and websites from '05-'12? How many miles did you put on your lifted & locked KJ including KJ meets and wheeling opportunities to get FIRST HAND info directly from the sources including a friend who bought one of these things against advice? You need to keep to what you know which is roughly 1/3 of what you think you know. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 You need to keep to what you know which is roughly 1/3 of what you think you know. :thumbsup: True, but depends on the situation and person. Some of you would do well to give this book a read. As much as I dislike today's Fiat/Chrysler, Chrysler has been down this road too many times in the past already. Don't really keep an ear out on how most of their new cars are doing, but it seems that from the little insight I have from people who own their newer cars / trucks, they don't seem to compare with some of the ones from the late 90s to early 2000s. Coming from someone who's owned a late 90s Chrysler truck, this is pretty hard to believe; then again, most of the groundwork for that truck was done by AMC, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Go eff yourself you arrogant, ignorant piece of dung. you are clawing. The 2.8, which I know INTIMATELY, is a problem on account of lack of maintenance, and that ONLY. The torque converter issue is an issue that affects a small percentage of what was produced.. it is not a wide issue. The egr costs jack to do away with. That is an american emissions standards problem, NOT a chrysler issue.. they had to in order to sell it here. Back to torque converter. It was changed to meet the detuned 2.8,...again, a result of american emissions standards. Timing is most definitely neglect. And, the lifted and locked kj now has 40k problem free miles. Plow one, 20k problem free. The crd that I repaired (because of egr failure taking out rockers due to american emissions destroying it) has 25k miles now, with no issues...egr delete, gde tune. They are not as big of a problem as you think. The "info" you have for every single issue you have brought up in this thread is flat out circumstantial....and all of it is circumstance in which you have no PERSONAL experience. Go suck an egg, dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Further, have you owned a vehicle with the new 9 speed? Worked on one? Didn't think so. Have you owned a diesel kj? Worked on one? Didnt think so. All you are doing here is regurgitating "that thing that you read at that one place". You act like someone who will call what he thinks is a sheep, a sheep, even if it is obvious to everyone else that it is a wolf How many mj have you worked on? I have built more than 10, stripped more than 20. as far as I am concerned, here, on this forum, specifically with regards to this forum, and especially on the subject of practical application of knowledge, I am the boot, you are the ant. What you have done and what I have done gives neither of us any damn right to act as arrogant as we have, specifically towards each pther. But I tell you what, you are the only person I have ever interacted with I would happily punch right on the mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incommando Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Can someone burp and change jeepcomj? That usually stops the crying. Pat still can't figure out that OVERSEAS versus HERE issue. Sad. Oh well. Back on block. Toodles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minuit Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 :shake: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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