kro10000 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Ok so here's the story, as I posted a while back, I'm in charge of driving my fraternity's old '37 Ford Firetruck. This guy: So I got pulled over by a campus cop last month and was issued a ticket for no proof of insurance and "unlawful riding". The truck has an open bed in the back for carrying firefighters and I had a couple friends riding in the back. Long story short I got the insurance charge dropped by showing proof to the prosecuting attorney but he wouldn't drop the unlawful riding charge. I had no idea such a law even existed but I went in and got the municipal ordinance from the city of Pittsburg. It states that a driver may not allow people to ride in any part of a vehicle not designed or intended for passengers. Well this is a '37 and the only purpose for the bed is to carry people. I went in to court and plead not guilty, and have to go back for trial on May 18th. It was a cheap ticket, but if we can't carry people around, what is the point of having the truck? Anyway I was just hoping for advice from someone, I have never even witnessed a trial, except for on tv and have no idea what to expect. I can't afford a lawyer so I hope to fight it myself, but don't really have any idea what would be a good case to make against the charge. I have a feeling that if I go in and tell the judge that it is an old firetruck and the back was meant for passengers he will just tell me that is stupid and dangerous, and won't have anything to do with it. Now before you all start telling me it is stupid and irresponsible, I understand the risks. I never go over 35 mph with passengers in the back, only drive around campus, never let anyone intoxicated ride, etc etc. As there isn't anything there now, I plan on fabbing up a sort of tailgate for the rear to keep people from falling out. By the way, this is the bed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I have to ask...what is the point either way? it's a fraternity...not a transportation service, not a fire department, and not the campus shop class. It's a cool truck...I just think that it defeated it's purpose by simply belonging to a fraternity. seems there are better things to put your guy's money into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kro10000 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 I have to ask...what is the point either way? it's a fraternity...not a transportation service, not a fire department, and not the campus shop class. It's a cool truck...I just think that it defeated it's purpose by simply belonging to a fraternity. seems there are better things to put your guy's money into... Well there isn't a practical purpose for it obviously, but with anything this old there usually isn't. The point of it is just to have fun cruising around, having water fights, and parading. Many Pike houses have old firetrucks (google pike firetruck) most don't actually work, but ours does, so it is part tradition. So if you expect someone to actually fight fires with this, then no there isn't a point. It is just for fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnkyboy Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Lots of fire depts have these old trucks,they usually drive them on holidays and in parades with people in the back. I would call some fire depts and see what they have to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geonovast Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Put some wood bench seats in the back with seatbelts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 if it's traditional, and it's been in the fraternity's posession for an extended time, driven around for this that and another....point out all of that to the judge, and say simply "this is the first time we've had an issue with it, we use it like this in parades, and this is the first time anyone has brought up any issue with using the vehicle as it was designed to be used" and point out that the max speed on that thing is extremely low compared to today's standards, and that it does indeed take awhile to get there...those things aren't quick by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kro10000 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 if it's traditional, and it's been in the fraternity's posession for an extended time, driven around for this that and another....point out all of that to the judge, and say simply "this is the first time we've had an issue with it, we use it like this in parades, and this is the first time anyone has brought up any issue with using the vehicle as it was designed to be used" and point out that the max speed on that thing is extremely low compared to today's standards, and that it does indeed take awhile to get there...those things aren't quick by any means. Well it gets tricky there, we have had it since the early 80's, but we have definitely had trouble with it before. I believe this is the first time we have ever gotten a ticket in it though. That is a great point that I will definitely use, I can go with negligence if nothing else. There is an exception in the ordinance for parades, so that won't fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave92cherokee Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 It states that a driver may not allow people to ride in any part of a vehicle not designed or intended for passengers. Print out the section that states this and take pictures of the truck along with documentation that it is an antique fire truck and the judge should dismiss the charges. Sounds like rent-a-cop was having a bad day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glundblad Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I have no idea what I am talking about so keep that in mind. Older vehicles typically are exempt from newer safety laws. A 1963 nova didnt come with shoulder belts. A model T had no seat belts. Yet you are required by law to wear both. I bet that thing doesnt even have seat belts in the cab. It sounds like it is the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasbulliwagen Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 The grab bars around the edges of the people carrying bed show that it was intended for firefighters to ride in and hold on, to make a hasty exit when they arrived at the scene of a fire. Its intended purpose was for carrying people, so push that point when you go to court. Though not having legal counsel the other sides lawyer may try to strongarm you with obscure legal phrasing and objections... so be careful with your wording, dress nice, and keep your calm. When do you go to court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 The grab bars around the edges of the people carrying bed show that it was intended for firefighters to ride in and hold on, to make a hasty exit when they arrived at the scene of a fire. Its intended purpose was for carrying people, so push that point when you go to court. Though not having legal counsel the other sides lawyer may try to strongarm you with obscure legal phrasing and objections... so be careful with your wording, dress nice, and keep your calm. When do you go to court? I would get a public attorney. If the cop who issued the ticket actually shows up, he will have legal representation, and they will absolutely own you in court and you won't stand a chance. Of the 100 cases I've heard about where people tried to represent themselves in a trial, 95 of them get smoked. The other 5 did a lot of homework and were well educated on state and local laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirteatr717 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 In New York your allowed to have passengers in the bed of a pickup for up to 5 miles on town roads( no major roadways )... Look into that as well. Nice looking truck :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kro10000 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 When do you go to court? Trial is set for May 18th, which kinda sucks seeing as that is the week after finals week, so I'll have to drive back here. I would get a public attorney. If the cop who issued the ticket actually shows up, he will have legal representation, and they will absolutely own you in court and you won't stand a chance. Of the 100 cases I've heard about where people tried to represent themselves in a trial, 95 of them get smoked. The other 5 did a lot of homework and were well educated on state and local laws. That is what I'm afraid of, I really don't know how good my chances are. The prosecuting attorney seemed pretty adamant about how he feels about this ticket, which is not good. It also doesn't help that he already knows me from a previous unrelated incident. I'm not sure I will be able to pay a public attorney though. Does anyone else think that our law system completely sucks? That you have to pay someone that speaks law an exorbitant amount of money to protect your own rights? Shouldn't laws be written so everyone can understand them? I guess this is what happens when you have a country run by lawyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Well, depending on how poor you are, you may be able to have the court appoint you a public defender for free. I can't comment on how good a public defender would be, but it's much better legal representation than none at all. I suspect that your public defender and the prosecutor will just have a little chat, and work out some kind of plea bargain to give you a lesser charge, but you'll still have to pay a fine. A private defender (although it will cost you money) may actually try to get the ticket dropped entirely, but would also more than likely get you a plea bargain. Trust me, if you don't know what you're doing in there, your head will spin around and you're gonna have the book thrown at you. My friend tried to fight a parking ticket he got that he didn't feel was justified. He didn't know much about the local laws and only knew what he had seen in movies as far as trials are concerned. He made up a poster with photographs he had taken to show that his parking job was legitimate and a ticket was not warranted. He basically just embarrassed himself, wasted his own time, and still had to pay the fine. The judge didn't care and even laughed at him. The entire judicial system is a business - they just want your money. Townships have bills to pay and traffic fines generate a decent amount of revenue for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kro10000 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Well, depending on how poor you are, you may be able to have the court appoint you a public defender for free. I can't comment on how good a public defender would be, but it's much better legal representation than none at all. I suspect that your public defender and the prosecutor will just have a little chat, and work out some kind of plea bargain to give you a lesser charge, but you'll still have to pay a fine. A private defender (although it will cost you money) may actually try to get the ticket dropped entirely, but would also more than likely get you a plea bargain. Trust me, if you don't know what you're doing in there, your head will spin around and you're gonna have the book thrown at you. My friend tried to fight a parking ticket he got that he didn't feel was justified. He didn't know much about the local laws and only knew what he had seen in movies as far as trials are concerned. He made up a poster with photographs he had taken to show that his parking job was legitimate and a ticket was not warranted. He basically just embarrassed himself, wasted his own time, and still had to pay the fine. The judge didn't care and even laughed at him. The entire judicial system is a business - they just want your money. Townships have bills to pay and traffic fines generate a decent amount of revenue for them. Well, you've got me scared now. I am pretty much broke, but since I'm still listed as a dependent under my parents, I'm not sure how much they would charge me. It really isn't the fine I'm worried about, because that is only about $35 (plus $45 in court costs :eek: ). It is the fact that I want to be able to continue to be able to drive people around in the firetruck. So I could plea "no contest" to avoid admitting guilt, since I don't think it was justified. This thing is really starting to agitate me.... :fs1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beepbeepmyredjeep Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 If you're in a national fraternity, see if you can find someone who belonged to the fraternity and is now a lawyer. They might do the case pro bono to support the fraternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddzz1 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 -Pleading no contest is the same as pleading guilty. It basically means that you agree that if you went to trial the state has enough evidence to find you guilty. -don't worry about the past ticket. That prosecutor sees so many people I'm sure he doesnt remember you. - Definately bring pictures of the bed of the truck. I have beaten tickets 2x, and both times it was because of the pictures. -Traffic court is NOTHING like criminal court. -I would argue that it was designed for carrying passengers, and the fact that you were on campus. Is this regualr traffic court or is it different because it was on campus and not a public street? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I guess I would want to start by asking what the state's definition of "Unlawful Riding" is. Is it not enough seats for passengers? I would start there. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beepbeepmyredjeep Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Something you need to keep in mind...how is the truck tagged? Does it have Historic tags, regular tags, what? A lot of states place restrictions on what you can do with a vehicle with Historic tags... For example, in Maryland you are only allowed to drive a vehicle with historic tags in parades, to car shows, etc. It's primary purpose must not be transporting passengers or cargo. Make sure you don't accidentally incriminate yourself of a greater charge while trying to defend the current charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buxmj Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Check with your student government office. Some schools have free legal advice for students. I got advice from my school legal aid and it helped with my traffic ticket. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpnjim Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Build your case, find the exact law, and how it's written. See if it actually applies in this case (interpretations can vary, especially when dealing with a 74 year old fire truck). Find vintage pics of this, or similar fire trucks, on the job, filled with fire fighters. Original literature from the manufacturer stating "fits 5 in back", or whatever would be great (tho I'm sure tough to find). The rear passenger compartment is unconventional, but so is the rest of the vehicle, including the front seat. They did things different 3/4's of a century ago, unless there's a law specifically controlling/outlawing use of old equipment like this on the street (and I doubt there is), it should be grandfathered in, since it met the rules of it's day (way before seatbelt/restraint laws were even thought of). I'd also try to find a lawyer familiar with the courthouse you'll be dealing with to talk to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpnjim Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Just had another thought on this, if you really are planning to build a tailgate, get it done before the trial and have some pics of it to show the judge. I'm guessing that even if the judge agrees with you, he is going to think twice about allowing 'kids' back there (how he will view you guys), thinking someone could eventually get hurt, or killed. If you have a secure gate in place, it might make the ruling you are looking for easier for him to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kro10000 Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Just had another thought on this, if you really are planning to build a tailgate, get it done before the trial and have some pics of it to show the judge. I'm guessing that even if the judge agrees with you, he is going to think twice about allowing 'kids' back there (how he will view you guys), thinking someone could eventually get hurt, or killed. If you have a secure gate in place, it might make the ruling you are looking for easier for him to make. Not a bad Idea, if anyone has some ideas don't mind posting them up. I was thinking more of a swing away gate, maybe made of wood seeing as my resources for metalworking there are limited. They have a fully fledged machine shop and foundry at school, they just won't let me use it :( . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Some stained wood would probably fit in nice... What is the number and title for the violation so I can look it up? Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvusse Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 He said it was a local ordinance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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