Evolution or Creation

[HOrnbrod]

As to the original poster -- you asked a question. I respectfully suggest that you now chill out and allow people to answer rather than jumping in to argue with other people's views. There is no more certain way to NOT get your question answered.

 

Dayem, this is an MJ forum; the Pub is the Pub, but not a free license to post this crap if it's not even remotely MJ related. There are many other better suited forums in which you can post forever your views and get arguments pro/con ad nauseum, bring it there. Kill this thing please mods. :cheers:

[MOJOMJ]

a good healthy, controlled debate of things such as this is not a bad thing. It seems that some folks would get offended by this debate, and those follks have already voiced so.

 

 

unfortunately, the simplest way to make any statement on this topic is to say that this is just a game of chance, a flip of a coin. there are two sides, and the coin is still up in the air waiting to land.

 

I guess we will all just have to live our lives with our beliefs, and when our coin lands is when we find out whether it's heads or tails.

 

...to get offended because someone voiced an opinion (belief) that they have which will have no negative or positive impact on your personal life, especially if you can hold your ground and truly have faith in what you believe, is just plain childish. please embrace the fact that people will agree to disagree.

[HOrnbrod]

No one is offended mate - simply stated - again - so hopefully y'all can understand, this is not the correct platform for topics like this. Take it elsewhere. I'm here because I have an MJ, and enjoy give and take of discussing what this forum is all about. My MJ has no "negative or positive impact on my personal life" (althought it's frustrating at times :D ). There are plenty of forums that specialize on "healthy" topics like this one so everyone can spout their views. Do it.

[DirtyComanche]

I don’t believe in evolution simply because it’s impossible. I do believe that sometimes something’s do evolve and change, but if you start to think about it, to many things had to be absolutely perfect in order for this planet to sustain life, and for us humans to be able to walk, talk, breathe air, communicate, see and understand things. I don’t doubt at all that sometimes something happens by chance that had only 1 in a infinity chance of happening. but there is to much going on, to much happening that could of just happened, it grew that way, it evolved that way its impossible. I do believe in God and the Bible, do i follow it, well..no.

 

I'm not going to jump up and down cry and call you names if you don't believe the way i do, i'm not going to try to convert you either, but this is how my brain thinks and understands it.

 

 

 

You're trying to prove a negative... The statement that it is 'impossible' is based on what? You state that it had to be 'prefect' to get us to where we are. Well, it could have been perfect, no? Can we prove that it couldn't be perfect? For 99~% of scientists, no, we can't prove that it couldn't, as we just can't prove a negative. We can call it VERY unlikely, but never 'impossible'.

 

If it did not happen how is had... We would be somewhere else. Life may not have ever germinated, in whatever freak occurrence it was that created that initial spark. Or it could be the extreme opposite, beings with capabilities only heard of in science fiction. The time-line of life is full of unlikely occurrences, but we can't know what would have happened had those events not occurred in the order or way that they did. We can theorize, or make logical deductions, and a lot of them lead to the conclusions that if 'X' event had not occurred, life would not have made it. Perhaps so, we can't know how many other places in the near infinite (or perhaps infinite) vastness of the universe had similar circumstances, and things did not 'go the right way'.

 

We don't know if we're [earth] the only life... But we do know that there is potential that we are not alone. We can also reasonably assume that that if we are not alone, 'they' may well be nothing like us.

 

 

Anyways, as most would assume, I believe in evolution. I was not brought up to know anything else. Creationism, intelligent design, etc, we're only introduced to me later in life. Obviously I can't accept them as valid theories, although I can read the associated texts and accept them for what they are; and the thought that certain states/counties/etc school boards were either not teaching evolution, or providing the creationism/intelligent design as 'alternate theories' in the classroom, makes me chuckle. It scares me too, but that's another story.

[1990 Pioneer 4x4]

No one is offended mate - simply stated - again - so hopefully y'all can understand, this is not the correct platform for topics like this. Take it elsewhere. I'm here because I have an MJ, and enjoy give and take of discussing what this forum is all about. My MJ has no "negative or positive impact on my personal life" (althought it's frustrating at times :D ). There are plenty of forums that specialize on "healthy" topics like this one so everyone can spout their views. Do it.

 

That's what the world needs – more censorship. Seems like everyone is expressing themselves in a peaceful way, so what’s the big deal? And, if someone is uncomfortable with what they are reading, couldn’t they simply not read it? :shake:

[bigalpha]

As to the original poster -- you asked a question. I respectfully suggest that you now chill out and allow people to answer rather than jumping in to argue with other people's views. There is no more certain way to NOT get your question answered.

 

I'm sorry, who am I arguing with?

[pilotblake]

I think it is funny. I was impressed with the controlled sharing of beliefs and religion, of all things without flying off the handle.......until someone says that we can't now all of a sudden the tables have turned, and people are getting worked up............Don't yell fire until you know that is in fact what it is. And I don't know how your computer works, but I have to click on this post to read it, and I do with an open mind. :thumbsup:

[streetjeep2.5]

:agree:

 

and we have god for adults to remind them if they are not good they will not get into heaven,

 

i chose this single sentence from this quote as the saddest, but most of it was to me.

 

Ephesians 2:8 (King James Version)

 

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

way too common a misconception that it is the works you do on earth that get you to heaven, oh i'm a good person, i didn't kill anyone, i'm fine. but the bible is clear there's only one way, if we relied on our own "good behavior" heaven would be empty.

 

oh, creation :thumbsup:

 

LONG POST IN RESPONSE:

Agreed! Whole of Ephesians 2:8-10 says (this from the recent English Standard Version Translation) "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Christians realize, for God's word "converted" our thinking, that the reason for all evil work in this world is man-caused. Yes, some use religion for it's practice, but that is not the fault of God. It is man creating "false" religions and concepts of God. But, God did not create (I believe in creation) mankind evil, but good. Mankind "fell into sin" and messed everything up. Jesus even said of fallen mankind "out of the heart comes evil thoughts, murder ..." etc "they defile a man." But "God so loved the world that He gave His Son (Jesus)" to take our guilt away. Now, through this gift of God called faith in what God did for all people in Jesus, God has made us His Workmanship to do what is good according to God, not man. Sure, we still have a sinful nature and blow it, but God forgives, and we strive against sin, not to be saved but because God saved us.

And, on Evolution/Creation, a quote from "Progress in Theology", a newsletter of the John Templeton Foundation, which produced "Explorations: Currents in the Interface of Science and Religion". In Vol. 5, Issue 1, 2000, Howard J. Van Till, Ph.D.) wrote the article, "Why Does the Universe Work?" In it he writes: "Can the ‘stuff’ of the universe do everything that science expects of it? … As scientists, we think it does. But, also as scientists, we haven’t a clue as to why that should be the case. Why should the universe work well enough to make the processes of evolution possible? We have no scientific answer; science is silent there. … Science crafts clever theories about how things get formed, but why is the stuff of the universe able to arrange itself into these forms?"

He continues: "I want to know why there are such things as interaction forces in the first place, and why things are gifted with the ability to respond to these forces in the particular ways that we observe. In short, why does the universe work? Where do the universe’s ‘natural’ abilities come from? What is the ultimate source of the properties and interaction that we take for granted as ordinary? What we call ‘ordinary’ turns out to be truly awesome when you think about it. … Science has no answers to questions like this. … But when we ask why the universe should possess these particular abilities, we are forced to think about the ultimate source of the universe’s being. We must ask why there is something rather than nothing?"

Note the only conclusion he draws: "Perhaps the awesome nature of the universe is best seen as evidence for a mind more creative than we could imagine. Perhaps the giftedness of the universe is best seen as evidence for a giver of being more generous than we humans could ever envision."

BTW, no, we cannot prove God's existence by scientific investigation, but Holy Scripture says everything we see out there is the proof that there is "God". Think of it; if there was "evolution", where did the "energy" that brought about come from? "Energy" cannot cause itself to exist. Science knows that. Dr. Van Till admits it.

[dasbulliwagen]

Another reason that I know that there is no god. I work with an animal rescue group and have specialized in rescuing and adopting cats and kittens. We have not worked with them much lately because we are busy with our little girl, but in the course of 5-6 years, we have put through and adopted 30-40 cats and kittens through our home, no more than 4-6 in the house at a time. And every time one of those sweet kittens gets sick with an incurable disease, and I have to put that kitten to sleep, it just reaffirms to me that there is no god. Why would an all knowing all loving god do such a thing to such a poor innocent cat. And that goes for every bad thing in life. There is just soo much of it, too much to be explained by "the devil made me do it". There are too many supposedly good god fearing people that do so many bad things, it can't all be explained like that. To me there is only one thing cruel enough to make any sense of why all this bad stuff happens....MOTHER NATURE. And the term "mother" is not used to make it out like a higher being. Only nature is cruel enough to allow all the bad stuff to happen, and I accept that, because it makes sense. There is a way of things in nature and killing and whatnot is an integral part of that, and we humans are no different. Its just sad that common sense really has no place in religion... or politics for that matter, but thats another subject I am not getting into.

[mudhunter]

If I believe, and there is a God of creation, I go to Heaven

If I don't believe, and there is a God of creation, I go to Hell

If I believe, and there is NO God of creation, Ive lived my life the best way possible

If I don't believe, and there is NO God of creation, Ive lived my life with no hope, expecting that when I die Its all over, thats it, the end.

 

So lets see what that boils down to.

 

Believe = Heaven(only if you acknowledge you are a sinner and accept the gift of salvation)

= Ive lived my life the best way possible

 

Don't believe = HELL

=Ive lived my life with no hope, expecting that when I die Its all over, thats it, the end.

 

I will remain a believer and hold onto the joy that i will once again see my grandparents, cousins, parents, and when the day comes, I WILL see my wife and children again

[Lenard]

I take a simple belief. I believe in a "Higher Power" Be it a god, alah, jesus, the creator of the MJ... :thumbsup:

 

There is a definition for what I am. Some one told me long ago. A person who believes in a higher power, but doesn't know what. There is a description for that.

 

I believe we had to have been created from something. I believe in evolution. But I believe it had to start with a seed. The seed was created, evolution took it from there. ;)

 

I loose myself sometimes thinking about "creation" if god created us, what created god? If that created god, what created that? Where does it end? How did the universe come to be, and what created the universe? How did what created the universe come to be? Space-time-and whatnot had to come from something, but where did it start? Where does it end? Eventually there HAS to be an end, but if there was, only another question as to where that began.

 

Rob L.

thats the problem right there, peopls minds can not comprehend that there is no begin and no end for god, they don't really understand what the word infinity means, or forever, our minds are built around a world that does have a beging and a end and so we can't understand god. and so people will just throw that "idea" out the door, and believe in evolution cause its easier to understand.

[bigalpha]

Rob L.

thats the problem right there, peopls minds can not comprehend that there is no begin and no end for god, they don't really understand what the word infinity means, or forever, our minds are built around a world that does have a beging and a end and so we can't understand god. and so people will just throw that "idea" out the door, and believe in evolution cause its easier to understand.

 

I don't think that people believe in evolution because it's easier to understand. IMO, it's much easier to understand that God created all creatures at one time. I also think that many people have various reasons for believe or not believing in evolution, and that they may not be religiously motivated.

[Eagle]

That's what the world needs – more censorship. Seems like everyone is expressing themselves in a peaceful way, so what’s the big deal? And, if someone is uncomfortable with what they are reading, couldn’t they simply not read it? :shake:

Unfortunately, I cannot not read it. As a moderator, I have a responsibility to read it. And the more unsuited it is for this particular site, the more important it is that I read it to ensure that the discussion remains civil.

 

I remain of the opinion that this discussion does not belong on this site but, since this is Pete's site and he didn't remove it, I have to abide by his decision.

[Eagle]

As to the original poster -- you asked a question. I respectfully suggest that you now chill out and allow people to answer rather than jumping in to argue with other people's views. There is no more certain way to NOT get your question answered.

 

I'm sorry, who am I arguing with?

 

For one example:

 

I don’t believe in evolution simply because it’s impossible. I do believe that sometimes something’s do evolve and change, but if you start to think about it, to many things had to be absolutely perfect in order for this planet to sustain life, and for us humans to be able to walk, talk, breathe air, communicate, see and understand things. I don’t doubt at all that sometimes something happens by chance that had only 1 in a infinity chance of happening. but there is to much going on, to much happening that could of just happened, it grew that way, it evolved that way its impossible. I do believe in God and the Bible, do i follow it, well..no.

 

I'm not going to jump up and down cry and call you names if you don't believe the way i do, i'm not going to try to convert you either, but this is how my brain thinks and understands it.

 

 

Just remember that all these gradual changes took place over an immense amount of time.

[bigalpha]

For one example:

 

Sorry you interpreted it as me being argumentative. I wasn't.

[1990 Pioneer 4x4]

That's what the world needs – more censorship. Seems like everyone is expressing themselves in a peaceful way, so what’s the big deal? And, if someone is uncomfortable with what they are reading, couldn’t they simply not read it? :shake:

Unfortunately, I cannot not read it. As a moderator, I have a responsibility to read it. And the more unsuited it is for this particular site, the more important it is that I read it to ensure that the discussion remains civil.

 

I remain of the opinion that this discussion does not belong on this site but, since this is Pete's site and he didn't remove it, I have to abide by his decision.

 

:hijack: For clarification: I guess I wasn’t thinking about you mods. I think you and Pete do an awesome job keeping the “tone” of this forum user/family friendly. Too many other forums don’t. Keep up the good work!

[dasbulliwagen]

I too have to say that I'm impressed that this hasnt gone south on us. Everything Ive seen has been civil and I have no complaints as to how its going. It might be too, that there are so many of us godless heathens on here! :brows:

[Eagle]

Either that, or perhaps everyone knows that

 

THE JEEP GODS ARE WATCHING!

[mvusse]

I think it is just that we have a large number of adults (and mature younger people) on this site as opposed to a bunch if immature little kids that like to make trouble.

 

That is one of the reasons I like this site so much. Mature conversation instead of flame fests.

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic. I am interested in the rest of everybody else's thinking on the evolution vs creation issue.

[jpdocdave]

:agree:

 

and we have god for adults to remind them if they are not good they will not get into heaven,

 

i chose this single sentence from this quote as the saddest, but most of it was to me.

 

Ephesians 2:8 (King James Version)

 

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

way too common a misconception that it is the works you do on earth that get you to heaven, oh i'm a good person, i didn't kill anyone, i'm fine. but the bible is clear there's only one way, if we relied on our own "good behavior" heaven would be empty.

 

oh, creation :thumbsup:

 

LONG POST IN RESPONSE:

Agreed! Whole of Ephesians 2:8-10 says (this from the recent English Standard Version Translation) "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Christians realize, for God's word "converted" our thinking, that the reason for all evil work in this world is man-caused. Yes, some use religion for it's practice, but that is not the fault of God. It is man creating "false" religions and concepts of God. But, God did not create (I believe in creation) mankind evil, but good. Mankind "fell into sin" and messed everything up. Jesus even said of fallen mankind "out of the heart comes evil thoughts, murder ..." etc "they defile a man." But "God so loved the world that He gave His Son (Jesus)" to take our guilt away. Now, through this gift of God called faith in what God did for all people in Jesus, God has made us His Workmanship to do what is good according to God, not man. Sure, we still have a sinful nature and blow it, but God forgives, and we strive against sin, not to be saved but because God saved us.

And, on Evolution/Creation, a quote from "Progress in Theology", a newsletter of the John Templeton Foundation, which produced "Explorations: Currents in the Interface of Science and Religion". In Vol. 5, Issue 1, 2000, Howard J. Van Till, Ph.D.) wrote the article, "Why Does the Universe Work?" In it he writes: "Can the ‘stuff’ of the universe do everything that science expects of it? … As scientists, we think it does. But, also as scientists, we haven’t a clue as to why that should be the case. Why should the universe work well enough to make the processes of evolution possible? We have no scientific answer; science is silent there. … Science crafts clever theories about how things get formed, but why is the stuff of the universe able to arrange itself into these forms?"

He continues: "I want to know why there are such things as interaction forces in the first place, and why things are gifted with the ability to respond to these forces in the particular ways that we observe. In short, why does the universe work? Where do the universe’s ‘natural’ abilities come from? What is the ultimate source of the properties and interaction that we take for granted as ordinary? What we call ‘ordinary’ turns out to be truly awesome when you think about it. … Science has no answers to questions like this. … But when we ask why the universe should possess these particular abilities, we are forced to think about the ultimate source of the universe’s being. We must ask why there is something rather than nothing?"

Note the only conclusion he draws: "Perhaps the awesome nature of the universe is best seen as evidence for a mind more creative than we could imagine. Perhaps the giftedness of the universe is best seen as evidence for a giver of being more generous than we humans could ever envision."

BTW, no, we cannot prove God's existence by scientific investigation, but Holy Scripture says everything we see out there is the proof that there is "God". Think of it; if there was "evolution", where did the "energy" that brought about come from? "Energy" cannot cause itself to exist. Science knows that. Dr. Van Till admits it.

 

well put

[jpdocdave]

Another reason that I know that there is no god. I work with an animal rescue group and have specialized in rescuing and adopting cats and kittens. We have not worked with them much lately because we are busy with our little girl, but in the course of 5-6 years, we have put through and adopted 30-40 cats and kittens through our home, no more than 4-6 in the house at a time. And every time one of those sweet kittens gets sick with an incurable disease, and I have to put that kitten to sleep, it just reaffirms to me that there is no god. Why would an all knowing all loving god do such a thing to such a poor innocent cat. And that goes for every bad thing in life. There is just soo much of it, too much to be explained by "the devil made me do it". There are too many supposedly good god fearing people that do so many bad things, it can't all be explained like that. To me there is only one thing cruel enough to make any sense of why all this bad stuff happens....MOTHER NATURE. And the term "mother" is not used to make it out like a higher being. Only nature is cruel enough to allow all the bad stuff to happen, and I accept that, because it makes sense. There is a way of things in nature and killing and whatnot is an integral part of that, and we humans are no different. Its just sad that common sense really has no place in religion... or politics for that matter, but thats another subject I am not getting into.

 

i will try to keep the biblical responses short, because if i make a lengthy reply i believe it will just get glazed or scanned over.

 

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

when God created Adam and Eve, there was no death, suffering, pain, anger and so on. they were cast out of the garden of eden for disobeying the one thing God said not to do. hence the wages of sin and so on. God is a God of love but is also 1oo% just. He is a righteous and perfect judge, and in order to do so there must be death, and so on. the difference between Christains and the rest of the world is we are saved as a gift of God, because he loved the world so much he sent his son to take that punishment for us, and all we have to do to recieve his forgiveness is believe and accpet that. so part of that difference is when we or loved ones die, we have hope, and we mourn but we also celebrate. death is not the end.

 

one more thing, i was trying to keep this short and failed. people think you die and its over. this is not the case, one will either spend eternity in heaven, or hell. people think you go to hell and maybe suffer a little then die again (i used to think this way) but the truth is you will spend eternity in one or the other...eternity. and its kind of cut and dry, either you believe and accpet God, or you don't. you live one way or the other, and you end up one way or the other, forever either way.

 

i am also enjoying the fact this discussion is civil and intelligent, and i agree with marcel, this is a good group of people.

[landlubber]

I vote creationism.

 

very good debate question, people could go on forever on this one.

 

I was brought up a christian, still would call myself a "nondenominational christian"

 

I can't wrap my mind around the idea that we all evolved from jellyfish and bajillions of years, just makes no sense to my logic.

[DirtyComanche]

Okay, what do the 'None of the Above'ers believe in?

[akamcbird]

alien intervention...

[DirtyComanche]

alien intervention...

 

 

But where did the aliens come from?

 

 

How much does it cost to join the Church of Scientology?