To LS or Stroker... That is the question

[howeitsdone]

I'm ready to either rebuild or swap and curious on both sides of the coin. Happy to save funds for either to do it right. Doing all the work myself so no labor markup.

 

Stroker build:

Either build one or buy one. I can get one pre-built from Titan or others for under $4,000 or build the one below (which is better) from my block for what looks to be about the same cost.

I looked at THIS guy's journey, but prices have changed since 2005 unfortunately

4.7 "Medium-Buck"

Jeep 4.2L 3.895" stroke crank
Jeep 4.0L 6.125" rods
Custom forged +0.060" bore pistons, compression height 1.380", dish volume 15cc 
10.2:1 CR
CompCams 68-235-4 210/218 degree camshaft
Russ Pottenger ported Edelbrock 60cc aluminum cylinder head 
Mopar/Victor 0.043" head gasket
0.043" quench height
Flometrics F&B 68mm billet TB
Accel 30lb/hr injectors

290hp @ 5100rpm, 340lbft @ 3700rpm

 

5.3 LS Build:

Keeping the AX15/231. I don't drive it hard and only occasionally want to wheel it. Maybe one day a 3500 or 4500 but not now.

For just the swap I'm estimating around $4,500 since I don't need trans-back. Is that on par for a basic swap or am I dreaming? Clearly the motor cost will vary, but I can find them for anywhere between $600-$1,200 depending on accessories included or a lucky d.o.t.d.

Initial Novak estimate is about $1,700 for various items

Leaves the rest of cost for a Holley system. What am I missing?

 

With either, I'd assume frame stiffeners are needed, or not really required for my use? A stroker is easier, but I just can't decide. Leaning toward Stroker personally due to ease.

[Comanche SS]

Strokers are cool, but LS are cooler

A built stroker will have around the same power as a basic LS...So it depends on your end goal. Will this be the one and only time you will want more power out of the truck? If so, a stroker would be easier...but if you are gonna do it and then want more later, an LS with a holley is the way to go for sure.

I am around $6500 into my Supercharged LS, with a Holley ignition and 4L80E...But I cut some corners and got some screaming good deals on stuff, I would think 8-10k for a pretty good LS swap is reasonable. 

 

I have buddies with strokers, and they have there fair share of problems and annoyances too.

Just think what you want long term and plan from there

 

[neohic]

I'm on the bandwagon of "strokers are cool... but..." as I'd never build another. Yup, they're nice that everything bolts right back in where it was but it's still based on an engine that had its basic architecture engineered a long time ago. Modern engines are far more efficient in how they make power. If I were to do it all over again, I'd pick an engine that matches my wants/needs and go from there.

[89 MJ]

I think it depends. If you don’t plan on having the truck forever, I think an LS will hurt the value long-term, so I’d do a stroker. If it’s a forever truck, LS swap that puppy and get more power and parts availability. 

[howeitsdone]

52 minutes ago, Comanche SS said:

So it depends on your end goal.

I don't see myself building this truck to anything more-than. The ultimate goal is to have plenty of power when needed. I'm sure @neohic can attest, but living in the mountains requires a bit more torque unless you'd like to get to your destination next week. Right now I can't tow anything with it unless the route is flat essentially and I'm not in the "just re-gear" camp.

 

For reference, my WK2 has 400lbft torque and essentially the same gearing (3.45) and I can race through the mountains with the trailer on the back. So once I reach enough torque for those purposes, I'll be good. Since the stroker aims for 340lbft I feel it's right where I need it. But is a tough decision because it's "Max the 4.0, or Start from the 5.3"

 

40 minutes ago, neohic said:

If I were to do it all over again, I'd pick an engine that matches my wants/needs and go from there.

 

Which stroker version did you do? Does it chop through the Rockies just fine or is that part of your point?

 

30 minutes ago, 89 MJ said:

If it’s a forever truck, LS swap that puppy and get more power and parts availability. 

 

Definitely plan on keeping unless something extraordinary happens. But I know I won't need any more power than a base LS. So I'm in a dilemma of will I be wasting the extra couple of thousand bucks if I swap in the LS.

[Comanche SS]

24 minutes ago, howeitsdone said:

I don't see myself building this truck to anything more-than. The ultimate goal is to have plenty of power when needed. I'm sure @neohic can attest, but living in the mountains requires a bit more torque unless you'd like to get to your destination next week. Right now I can't tow anything with it unless the route is flat essentially and I'm not in the "just re-gear" camp.

 

For reference, my WK2 has 400lbft torque and essentially the same gearing (3.45) and I can race through the mountains with the trailer on the back. So once I reach enough torque for those purposes, I'll be good. Since the stroker aims for 340lbft I feel it's right where I need it. But is a tough decision because it's "Max the 4.0, or Start from the 5.3"

 

 

Which stroker version did you do? Does it chop through the Rockies just fine or is that part of your point?

 

 

Definitely plan on keeping unless something extraordinary happens. But I know I won't need any more power than a base LS. So I'm in a dilemma of will I be wasting the extra couple of thousand bucks if I swap in the LS.

Have you considered boosting a refreshed 4.0?

You can do all the gaskets and seals on the 4.0 for less than $200, figure a grand or two to boost it (if you are resourceful) and thus you won't have altitude problems.

I have had a few grands as well, and the thing that really stands out more than the power is the transmission technology. Sounds like you have  Hemi WK2, I had one too, and towing is a breeze, and that is due mostly to the trans I feel. After all, a V6 Ram 1500 or WK2 can still tow better than a 4.0 Jeep, not cause it has gobs more power, but a little extra power and a better trans can go a long way.

Now to answer how to do that, I dunno, A little boost and a good AX15 should get you close to your goal it sounds like do a lot less than a stroker or LS swap...

But take what I say with a grain of salt, I have a boosted LS and a trans that was idealized in the 60's. The new 8, 10, 12 speed transmissions from 2015+ are really amazing

 

[89 MJ]

You can get the stock LS engine computer tuned for about $300. That saves a lot of money too. The WK2 with a V8 is a more rev happy engine and has more gears in the transmission. Not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. 

[howeitsdone]

44 minutes ago, Comanche SS said:

You can do all the gaskets and seals on the 4.0 for less than $200, figure a grand or two to boost it

I'm at 300k miles and a PO scratched the crank @ RMS so it's gotta come out regardless to swap the crank, bearings, & rings. My thought with the stroker is that if it's already out, just replace with different parts. But if it's coming out regardless then I thought an LS might be an option. Just don't want to waste the money if I won't use it. 

 

Hoping to hear folks that stroked and have problems or why they chose that route/love it. Because it seems an LS is ideal, but something tells me I'll go swap one in and it'll be much more complicated than anticipated lol.

 

41 minutes ago, 89 MJ said:

Not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

Correct. Was more using it as a "this is the direction I want to go" in a sense. An LS with Auto trans would be more of a direct comparison, but my point is that I want/need torque. I suppose a stroker is still rev limited while a LS opens up the high-end, but if I can make ~315lbft with the stroker at like 2.5k then I'm not sure the higher RPM is needed. That's already almost 100 more than stock. Not trying to win races, just don't want to go 30mph up a hill lol. Plus I want to haul and drive on the freeway without problems. That's where I am currently.

[Comanche SS]

1 minute ago, howeitsdone said:

I'm at 300k miles and a PO scratched the crank @ RMS so it's gotta come out regardless to swap the crank, bearings, & rings. My thought with the stroker is that if it's already out, just replace with different parts.

 

 

Correct. Was more using it as a "this is the direction I want to go" in a sense. An LS with Auto trans would be more of a direct comparison, but my point is that I want/need torque. I suppose a stroker is still rev limited while a LS opens up the high-end, but if I can make ~315lbft with the stroker at like 2.5k then I'm not sure the higher RPM is needed. That's already almost 100 more than stock. Not trying to win races, just don't want to go 30mph up a hill lol. That's where I am currently.

If you really don't intend on going fast, a stroker is the way to go.

But take what @neohic said too, he wouldnt do it again.

an LS is a lot of work if you really only want to go a little faster. 

[howeitsdone]

Yeah, I'm hoping he chimes in with the "Why" he feels that way. Does he need more power or did things break?

 

Appreciate the input!  Clearly with a SC you're intent was to go VERY fast

[Comanche SS]

3 minutes ago, howeitsdone said:

Yeah, I'm hoping he chimes in with the "Why" he feels that way. Does he need more power or did things break?

 

Appreciate the input!  Clearly with a SC you're intent was to go VERY fast

Itll go fast one day...still workig out the kinks in the build!

[89 MJ]

Here is another point with the LS. This truck is your overlander, yes? If you ever decided to take the truck cross-country and had an engine issue, you have OBDII. You don’t have that with Renix. You can also get dang near anything you need for an LS in an auto parts store. I haven’t had the same luck with my 4.0s. But the 4.0 will make more low end torque, which is good for off roading. 

[Comanche SS]

1 hour ago, 89 MJ said:

Here is another point with the LS. This truck is your overlander, yes? If you ever decided to take the truck cross-country and had an engine issue, you have OBDII. You don’t have that with Renix. You can also get dang near anything you need for an LS in an auto parts store. I haven’t had the same luck with my 4.0s. But the 4.0 will make more low end torque, which is good for off roading. 

 

It wouldn't be hard at all to make low end torque with an LS, literally a camp swap away from having a better torque curve and high end than a 4.0, if that's a concern.

 

I agree with the statement about obd2 and parts availability, although I haven't had the issues you have with the 4.0 at least hard parts

[Pete M]

even if I got a bigger engine, I'd still regear.     3.07 gears suck.     My Dakota R/T had 3.92s and ~27" tall tires.    damn I miss that truck.

[Limeyjeeper]

Having now done 3 strokers and an LS here is my take. The Stoker is a beast of an off-road engine. Tons of low-down torque and enough power to do just about anything. However, getting the build right is hard unless you go with a Golen (Not a Titan) which is what I would do if I did a stroker again. Getting an engine that has been dynoed and broken is the way to go. The LS will have more power out the box (285hp - 450hp depending on size and configuration, but not necessarily more torque) and the potential to be tuned to stupid horsepower. It is not as torquey down low like a stroker, and it will cost you at least twice as much as a stroker. I would also do a stroker on an ODB2 platform as it is much easier to tune. Personally, I would never do a stroker on a renix platform. I have done ODB1 and ODB2. The latter gets much better results. A Golen stroker will cost you around $7k. They will also build you an LS if you want. The so called "poor mans strokers" really don't give you much over a stock engine except a lot more torque. Strokers are notorious for having valve train issues and often need premium fuel to run right. You can get a junkyard LS pretty cheap. I would get one that I knew was running well with good compression as a baseline, with less than 60 or 70k miles on it. You then have to add wiring, mounts, intake, (if you don't want a cowl hood), headers etc and you are still going to be running a high mileage platform that may or may not be reliable. If I did an LS again I would get a crate motor with PCM all ready to drop it. Expensive but completely issue free.

[neohic]

The main reason that I wouldn’t do another stroker is the cost investment. I did mine 15+ years ago and I think I had around $3500 in it. Mine is on the milder side so I wouldn’t have any issues running it on a stock RENIX computer. Granted, the truck has been mostly sitting for the past six years, but the seat of the pants feel of my truck when it was my daily driver was awesome! Plenty of power and gobs of torque. I’m still very happy with my engine. 

 

At the time, it was a good option. Since then I’ve done a bunch of drivetrain swaps in a bunch of different vehicles. Smaller V8s fit fine in our trucks and companies like Novak make swaps way easier than they were in the past. A bone stock GM 4.8/5.3 has way more potential than our 4.0s in terms of tuning and “easy/cheap” horsepower.

 

If I were to start from scratch, I’d do a GM 4.8 in front of an AX-15 with a Novak adapter but I’d build my own engine mounts. If an automatic was a priority, I’d consider an old school AMC 360 with a modern carb replacement fuel injection in front of an AW4… but that’s not what we’re talking about. 

[ghetdjc320]

Well, I’ve been down to many stroker roads to ever do one again. The cost to power trade off just isn’t there. As @neohic stated, it’s a very dated platform to begin with. I’m neck deep in the LS swap and as @Limeyjeeper said, it’s going to run you 10k plus to do a decent ls swap if you want a clean install. i wouldn’t use very much from novak aside from their radiator and motor mounts. They are very helpful but their products are lacking in thoughtful engineering imho. Id stick with just freshening up the 4.0 and probably gears or save up significantly more for an ls swap. Keep in mind that there are many GM engines that get labeled as an “LS” so there will be wildly varying results with the end product depending in what you use. I went the LS6 route as i don’t fell an ax15 can handle much more. But for a 4wd tranny, there isn’t a great alternative that has the closer gearing and compact size of the ax15. If you want to build an extra strong ax15, get a new unit from Aisin and send it to Marlin Crawler for their R151 upgrades. Even stock though, the ax15 can handle quite a bit of TQ and HP. 

[howeitsdone]

Thanks all. Sounds like strokers are moreso a thing of the past then. @Limeyjeeper for the cost of the Golen stroker it makes way more sense to go LS for only a bit more in cost. I looked at the Titan because I didn't feel I needed anything super powerful. When originally looking at the Golen I immediately thought LS instead lol

 

@ghetdjc320 I started compiling a sheet for keeping track of research and cost. Fortunately there's only a few Novak parts that I'd even need as the bell housing adapter comes with tons of parts already. My cost is about 4k off your estimated 10k. What am I missing? Do I have the wrong Terminator? Clearly taxes and shipping excluded.

Some things can certainly be scored used vs new too and I'll be looking for that. And that's my personal choice as I'm not scared of used things. There's even a local L76 intake and rail for $400 with 250 miles on it.

 

Not opposed to swapping in an R151 1st gear. What else does Marlin do to it? I thought it was just the 1st gear swap. Everything else seems about the same. I just rebuilt mine so no sweat to work on it.

 

Edit: Added $500 (should it be more?) for misc hoses and random stuff.

 

[thecodemonk]

Honestly, from what you describe, I'd go with the "regear it first" route and see if that's enough.  Torque can make up for regearing but regearing to a better ratio will help *now* and it will help later too (I'm on 4.10s even with my LS and it definitely makes a difference, even from the 3.54s I was on previously before I swapped axles).

As for stroker vs LS:
The stroker has one thing going for it and that's the ability to reuse parts.  No need for adapter plates to fit your transmission, no special motor mounts, no having to figure out new/custom piping for all your fluids and air, no having to change out your accessories like A/C or your power steering pump, etc...  

 

The LS has a few other pros that are sometimes not mentioned...which is that you need fewer custom parts for the engine itself to get more power (Stock LM7 or better yet, a LQ4 is going to be more power everywhere without modifying the engine at all).  My only minor regret is not going for the LQ4 when I did mine...it looks like it would have fit just the same (not that the LM7 doesn't have more than enough power for everything I want to do...but you know how it is).

 

On paper, a stroker is the same cost as an LS...in reality, it's still a fair amount cheaper due to all the little costs to fit the engine into the engine bay.  Unless you're a pretty confident fabricator and have a LOT of time to throw at it, the price of a LS swap is going to add up quick.  A glance at my spreadsheet, I spent easily an extra $5k in small parts to get it to fit well under the hood (accessory brackets, battery relocation, new fuel rails, different intake, guages to read the different ECU, novak headers, slimmer accessories, different radiator and e-fans, and on and on and on).
 

[ghetdjc320]

@thecodemonk pretty much summed it up. It’s all the little stuff that adds up, my engine alone was much more than what you have listed. Mine is more of a turnkey swap but even so I needed a lot of extra parts. AC was a bit of a headache, a few sensor adapters, oil pan and stick swap, upgraded dampener, roller rockers and lifter trays to upgrade know failure points, fuel system upgrades and plumbing… the list goes on. Not super complicated but you’ll need a lot of extra nickels and dimes lol

[thecodemonk]

5 hours ago, howeitsdone said:

 

 

 

Unless your 5.3 is coming from a car, you’ll need all new accessory brackets (f-body or vette spacing).  I tried to make it work with truck spacing and it ended up killing the space needed for the intake.

 

You’ll likely also need a new power steering pump…a tiny thing, think it also comes from a vette.  
 

AC fitment is a challenge…down low where it’s stock on a truck doesn’t usually fit in the rails unless you trim your frame rails. Alternative is that you get something else as your AC pump…I went with a geo metro pump to fit (but it’s not hooked up yet…just placed in there.  My truck wasn’t originally AC capable and I still haven’t torn apart the dash).

 

Battery fitment under the hood is tight.  Depending on your accessory config, you’ll have to rotate your battery or relocate it.  Mine is in the bed under my bed storage box now.

 

Those are some of the bigger items I remember from my swap.  
 

I highly recommend poking through the hardcore section to see how much is needed and what you’re in for with a V8 swap.  Also if you do it, start a thread and document your journey!  I’d love to see how you solve problems differently or similarly and see the journey! :)

 

[howeitsdone]

I think I'm going to ultimately end up with the LS route after hearing everyone's thoughts. For now I may do a JY 4.0 swap since I still need to replace my crank and would rather just plop something else in. Plus it's not like I can save the funds overnight. That would be nice! But I'll start collecting over the next few months.

 

LT from TruckTech did this swap last year and I have mine modeled a bit after it. Clearly not going LQ4 but essentially the same process. That's partly why I have the "LS Simple" line or a similar thing from another company. That'll allow me to adjust the accessories as needed. Plus the LS1/LS6 or L76, etc. intake. The video series below is actually really helpful because he explains the "Whys" and "Hows" and is pretty knowledgeable on these motors.

 

There's another video of someone doing a 4.8 & AX15 but isn't quite as polished and he bought the wrong parts at the beginning. In his latest video he tried a small launch and snapped the rear DS yoke. Clearly enough power flowing which has me excited!

 

Since I'm Renix, I don't really have much in the way of a PDC up front so I've got plenty of room for the battery and whatever else. Will definitely keep the battery up front with a little fab.

 

Oh and I've definitely added to that list since posting as I read through other's builds and do more research

 

 

[thecodemonk]

Sweet!  I’m excited to see the build as you progress!