Death wobble is trying to come back

[Knucklehead97]

10 hours ago, Eagle said:

 

Factory spec for caster is +7 to +8 degrees, but 6 may be the best you can do with a lift because of U-joint angles. I'd say it's marginal.

 

Factory spec for toe is zero, plus-or-minus 1/32 for each side, so it shouldn't be more than 1/16 toe-in. But I don't think 1/8" of toe-in would be enough to create any problems other than a bit of premature wear on the outer shoulders of the tires.

6* was the best I was able to get if I remember correctly. I'll reset the toe in when I replace TRE's because I feel after I check them a couple will need replacing. Something I just remembered is if I turned left, sometimes it would try to set off a full on wobble.

[Manche757]

I see there are tire preferences and issues here.  I usually head to Costco and buy a new set of Michelins for most vehicles I have owned.  Any mistake is those for MJs?

[Knucklehead97]

Drove it 70 up the interstate today with no odd jiggles. I found a Hunter balancer close to me so I will be having my tires balanced by them either way, if things still feel odd after that then I'll look into suspension parts again. Going to get XJ bucket seats and a 6x12 trailer next week so I need it running straight down the road for the 50 mile trek!

[mica]

Sounds like the tie rod end needs to be changed at the least, cheap part and added piece of mind. Kind of a bummer when one tire decides to steer independent of the steering wheel. if the TRE is endlessly spinning it will be hard to get it tight. As mentioned above you can carefully grab it with needle nose or something, but it is better to just change it out.

[mica]

As an aside, I have experienced death wobble with an '88 and an '86 MJ. The '88 had worn ball joints and a bad tire, later the tire blew out. On the '86 I changed a loose track bar the tie rod ends, not sure which caused the problem, but it fixed the problem.

[NickyV]

Hello! I am bringing this thread back! I'm also duplicating this post on r/MJComanche. Hope that's OK. I just want to make sure others who experience this can find more information if they're searching for this topic. I'd be interested in hearing back from @Knucklehead97 to hear if you ever fully vanquished your DW.

 

So, as my signature says, I have a 1987, 2.5L, 4-speed (AX4), 2WD. It is not lifted, but it has slightly larger-than-stock tires on it (235/75R/15 as opposed to 225/75R/15). It was a base model, I'm pretty sure. Might have even been radio delete. I've done a lot of work on the cab and creature comforts (stereo, etc), but starting to get into mechanical stuff.

 

I just spent a big chunk of change to try to address the accursed Death Wobble. It seemed to be mostly gone, although when I drove it home from the shop there was a little shimmy that the techs were attributing to tire balance or some related issue.

 

I still need to pull the trigger on balancing the tires or just get brand new ones. I have some 235/75r/15 Goodyear Wranglers on there. They have good tread, but uneven wear and they are pretty old. According to the shop, they are probably 12+ years old.

 

I really trust the mechanic, who I feel did a great job, despite not being a Jeep-specific shop. He runs an outfit that specializes in classic cars. MJs are classic in my book, but they aren't exactly a '56 Bel Air.

 

He knew about Death Wobble and recommended a bunch of things to do. He replaced the pitman arm, put in new suspension which needed to happen, replaced steering damper, installed power steering (yay!) and replaced the clutch master cylinder (unrelated to Death Wobble, obviously, but also needed to happen).

 

Since doing all these repairs, it has never gone back into full Death Wobble, but I can feel it creeping in at the edges. When I reach 55 MPH all the way to about 65 MPH, I can feel shimmy. If I hit a bump going in those speeds, I can feel the shimmy start to become more of a wobble.

 

When I'm on freshly-paved freeway, and feeling brave, I will push it to 70-75 MPH, and it does feel like it starts to smooth out and shimmy less, which I hear may be an indicator that this is a tire balance issue.

 

I have a few main questions:

 

1) I live in Oakland, Ca. The mechanic I like is in San Jose. It would be great to find a mechanic closer to home and also one who is very familiar with MJs or XJs. Does anyone have any recommendations for a mechanic or just a tire shop that is very good and thorough and would understand my issue? I see that @Eagle and @HOrnbrod swear by the Hunter Road Force tire balancer. That's good to know.

 

2) Has anyone ever experienced this exact issue, or close? What I mean is doing a bunch of work to fix Death Wobble and then having it start to creep back? If so, what did you do? Did you ultimately resolve it? How?

 

Thanks so much in advance for any wisdom!

[89 MJ]

21 minutes ago, NickyV said:

Hello! I am bringing this thread back! I'm also duplicating this post on r/MJComanche. Hope that's OK. I just want to make sure others who experience this can find more information if they're searching for this topic. I'd be interested in hearing back from @Knucklehead97 to hear if you ever fully vanquished your DW.

 

So, as my signature says, I have a 1987, 2.5L, 4-speed (AX4), 2WD. It is not lifted, but it has slightly larger-than-stock tires on it (235/75R/15 as opposed to 225/75R/15). It was a base model, I'm pretty sure. Might have even been radio delete. I've done a lot of work on the cab and creature comforts (stereo, etc), but starting to get into mechanical stuff.

 

I just spent a big chunk of change to try to address the accursed Death Wobble. It seemed to be mostly gone, although when I drove it home from the shop there was a little shimmy that the techs were attributing to tire balance or some related issue.

 

I still need to pull the trigger on balancing the tires or just get brand new ones. I have some 235/75r/15 Goodyear Wranglers on there. They have good tread, but uneven wear and they are pretty old. According to the shop, they are probably 12+ years old.

 

I really trust the mechanic, who I feel did a great job, despite not being a Jeep-specific shop. He runs an outfit that specializes in classic cars. MJs are classic in my book, but they aren't exactly a '56 Bel Air.

 

He knew about Death Wobble and recommended a bunch of things to do. He replaced the pitman arm, put in new suspension which needed to happen, replaced steering damper, installed power steering (yay!) and replaced the clutch master cylinder (unrelated to Death Wobble, obviously, but also needed to happen).

 

Since doing all these repairs, it has never gone back into full Death Wobble, but I can feel it creeping in at the edges. When I reach 55 MPH all the way to about 65 MPH, I can feel shimmy. If I hit a bump going in those speeds, I can feel the shimmy start to become more of a wobble.

 

When I'm on freshly-paved freeway, and feeling brave, I will push it to 70-75 MPH, and it does feel like it starts to smooth out and shimmy less, which I hear may be an indicator that this is a tire balance issue.

 

I have a few main questions:

 

1) I live in Oakland, Ca. The mechanic I like is in San Jose. It would be great to find a mechanic closer to home and also one who is very familiar with MJs or XJs. Does anyone have any recommendations for a mechanic or just a tire shop that is very good and thorough and would understand my issue? I see that @Eagle and @HOrnbrod swear by the Hunter Road Force tire balancer. That's good to know.

 

2) Has anyone ever experienced this exact issue, or close? What I mean is doing a bunch of work to fix Death Wobble and then having it start to creep back? If so, what did you do? Did you ultimately resolve it? How?

 

Thanks so much in advance for any wisdom!

Sounds like it wouldn't hurt to get the tires road force balanced. When you said your mechanic put in new suspension, does that mean shocks? Or is new suspension springs, shocks, and all rubber parts? There are almost countless causes for death wobble. The condition of all rubber puts in the front suspension should be inspected and replaced if needed. The track bar bolt on the front axle side is also prone to getting worn out to be an oval shape, causing death wobble. You should also get it aligned if it hasn't been aligned in a long time. Not having enough caster can cause issues too. 

 

@boxyjeep is somewhere in Cali, so he might have some shop recommendations. I would encourage you to learn how to do a lot of this stuff on your own. These are fairly simple rigs. Obviously there are some things that you can't do, like the tire balance and alignment, but working on other suspension stuff can be done fairly easily.

[NickyV]

Thanks for the intel, @89 MJ. I'll try to get @boxyjeep's attention, or he can drop his recs here, if he sees this post.

 

To answer your question, we only did the shocks. The springs are still the same ones that came from the PO. The mechanic wasn't thinking that the shocks were a big factor in the DW (if they even were), but did think they should be replaced.

 

And thanks for the encouragement too. Confidence is definitely one reason I didn't want to try to mess with the suspension, pitman arm, etc... I do feel pretty handy, though and I bet I can do some of this stuff myself. The other rub, though, is I don't have a driveway and I live on a relatively busy street. Then there's the time factor... anyway, my confidence is growing with every project and many of the ones I have listed in my signature, I plan to tackle myself.

 

I have a question for you related to this: 

 

4 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

Not having enough caster can cause issues too.

 

I brought up caster with the mechanic, and he seemed to understand it way better than I do. I think we were both thinking that because I don't have a lift, that it probably isn't the first thing to troubleshoot. However, as much as I trust him, I trust the group wisdom of this forum more. What do you all think? If I don't have a lift, could my issue be with caster?

[schardein]

I had death wobble on a low mileage, completely stock 2000 Cherokee.  I inspected everything, and nothing looked bad.  I threw a new track bar on it.  All that did was change the speed at which death wobble most commonly happened.  Then I put new tires on it.  That solved the DW permanently.

 

If you are driving 70+ mph on 12 year old tires, I really recommend getting new tires.  There are lots of variables to determining tire life, but 12 years old is pushing it for a rig driven at interstate speeds.  You could rotate your tires (swap front to rear) and see if that makes a difference, a free test you could probably do yourself.   

[NickyV]

Hey! I like that idea, @schardein! Not that I'm trying to be a cheapskate with my personal safety. Heh...

[89 MJ]

37 minutes ago, NickyV said:

 

To answer your question, we only did the shocks. The springs are still the same ones that came from the PO. The mechanic wasn't thinking that the shocks were a big factor in the DW (if they even were), but did think they should be replaced.

That’s what I was guessing. There shouldn’t be any reason to replace the springs anyways. The only reason I could see the shock causing DW would be if it were seized or completely and making the suspension do weird stuff. but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case. 
 

42 minutes ago, NickyV said:

I brought up caster with the mechanic, and he seemed to understand it way better than I do. I think we were both thinking that because I don't have a lift, that it probably isn't the first thing to troubleshoot. However, as much as I trust him, I trust the group wisdom of this forum more. What do you all think? If I don't have a lift, could my issue be with caster?

It’s an unlikely issue, but it’s still a possibility. Out of everything suggested, it’s probably the least likely. If it is an issue, they’d probably take care of it at an alignment shop. 

[MississippiComanche]

I have a 2.5L that had Death wobble for the majority of the years I've owned it since 2005. 

 

 I was finally able to get rid of the wobble last year by getting new tires, upgrading my trackbar to one that is beefier, I got new rough country steering stabilizer, and new upper/lower ball joints. The drivers side steering knuckle had so much play....and could easily be turned by barely touching it. I immediately knew this what the root cause of the wobble. As a kid, I had sh*t mechanics for years never properly diagnose it, and it finally after growing up....teaching myself how to be a mechanic...I figured it out.

 

Get Spicer ball joints. 

[NickyV]

Track bar and spicier ball joints! Love it!

 

@MississippiComanche, what tires did you get? Your signature doesn’t mention a lift. Is your MJ lifted?

Edited 19 hours ago by NickyV
Forgot to mention someone.

[MississippiComanche]

Yea I have 3in lift on 31's. I ended up getting the Rough Country HD Steering Kit for the trackbar and stabilizer.

 

In retrospect I wish I would've done the ZJ track bar or something else instead. It would've been a lot easier. 

I had to buy a reamer tool and ream the knuckles to fit the new larger RC trackbar joints. It was a pain in the a*s. 

 

But my death wobble is gone so I am happy. Steering is a lot more stiff and has better feel to it 

[NickyV]

Thanks, @MississippiComanche

 

At this point, I do not have plans to lift the truck. The most "off-roading" I ever do is driving on forest service roads to get to campgrounds, and I've always had sufficient clearance for that.

 

I'm realizing whenever I see conversations about track bars, it usually has to do with a lift. I'm assuming I have a track bar as well, even though it isn't lifted. (Novice question, I know.)

 

What's a good track bar for a non-lifted, 2WD MJ? One day, I want to get 4x4, but it will be a while.

 

 

[MississippiComanche]

I will say I did my steering upgrade and replaced ball joints before I installed my lift kit and when I still had factory wheels on it. I just did the lift and tires a few months ago....so the Death Wobble went away before that 

[MississippiComanche]

I meant to say tie rod earlier. I got a new tie rod and track bar. 

[MississippiComanche]

Here is a pic of my Rough Country tie rod, trackbar, and stabilizer. 

 

Some people will dog the sh*t out of Rough Country, but it had drastically improved the experience of my Comanche. My truck has always been a junker and feels like a daily driver now. You have to use wheel spacers for it to fit with factory wheels BTW 

[AZJeff]

If you search the XJ andZJ forums on the subject of death wobble, the following facts regularly surface as primary culprits:

• Out of balance or out of round tires.
• loose or worn steering linkage components, including ball joints
• loose or worn control arms and/or track bar

Note. that the steering stabilizer is so far down the list in mitigating death wobble as to be inconsequential.

 

[89 MJ]

The steering stabilizer at best will only mask issues. Eventually, it will come back when the stabilizer wears out. 

[AZJeff]

3 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

The steering stabilizer at best will only mask issues. Eventually, it will come back when the stabilizer wears out. 

This is VERY TRUE.   Many people think the stabilizer will stop or “cure” DW.   It does VERY little to mitigate DW on a vehicle that has any of the issues I listed as causes in my above post.