Electrolysis for rust removal

[Manche757]

No questions here but thought this would be an interesting read. A friend in another state takes a break from his day job by restoring a WWII era Jeep. The beginning of all Jeeps that would come later.  He has used electrolysis to remove rust from parts that may or may not be available. It is amazing how well it works. On parts small enough to fit in a container anyway.  

 

 

[Manche757]

Here are a couple of links he sent of the process.  He did not create the videos.

 

Another link:

 

http://www.rickswoodshopcreations.com/miscellaneous/rust_removal.htm

 

If you have used the process yourself, jump on the thread with your pics.

 

 

 

[Manche757]

The following pics are from the same 1942 WWII Jeep (or Ford?)  as the first pics above.  It is hard to believe that the parts above and additional ones shown below are from a 76 year old Jeep.

 

His mix and methodology is: "I used water and Arm & Hammer washing soda ($4 for a large box at Food Lion or Walmart). It was about 3 tablespoons per gallon of water which basically makes the water more conductive and a car battery charger."

[Manche757]

Any comments welcome.  Anyone used it? 

[SVPete]

Haven't used it, but I will be looking for some reason to try this. SCIENCE!

[13 Legion]

https://youtu.be/ACGSzBXKONo

A little different process... 

[DirtyComanche]

I've never done it.  I guess if you had a batch tank set aside and sealed when you didn't use it, it wouldn't be a big hassle to drop parts in and let them cook, but the initial setup would take a bunch of time.

 

My concerns:

-Most parts I want to remove rust from also have paint I want to remove.  The process won't remove paint, but failed paint must be removed before you can repaint, leaving you stuck going back and mechanically removing it or using a chemical stripper.  If you go back and mechanically remove it, you might as well have just used that method to take the rust off in the first place.

-Most parts I want to remove rust from are very big.  IE, an axle housing, or a bed side.  To have a tank large enough would require a lot of water, and a lot of space.  If it was outdoors that would be great, but half the year water gets really hard if left outside.

-The process leaves you with a lot of water and sludge.  This water is contaminated with stuff and things, some of which is likely not good.    One of the hardest things for me dispose of is contaminated water since I can't dump it on the ground (well, and hey, it would be wrong), can't dump it down the drain (septic, and again, it'd be wrong), and can't really take it many places since it can't be easily recycled (it's not coolant, oil, or fuel, all of which actually have some value in contaminated waste form).

-The process takes time.  I don't reuse rusted hardware, unless I'm in a hurry, in which case I just give it a quick cleaning of the threads with a wire wheel, slather it in antiseize, and jam it back in.  If I have time I'd rather buy a new bolt that I know is not damaged and has the correct thread profile.  Other things it might not matter if it takes time, but again, small parts can be cleaned quickly with a wire wheel.

[Eagle]

Somewhere on Youtube there is (or was) a series of videos by a guy who came into possession of a VERY old Colt 1911 pistol that had been buried for about fifty years. He used electrolysis to de-rust it and get it back to where he was actually able to shoot it. It wasn't a thing of beauty, but from what it looked like when it wsas dug up you would never have thought it would function again -- ever.

 

In fact -- it looks like there are two series on such projects:

 

https://youtu.be/B28_VN8Q6YE

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDM69iNaI_8

 

[PCO6]

I've never used the electrolysis for derusting but I know some guys swear by it.   I could be wrong but it seems that the setup is a bit of work.   I been using phosphoric acid for years with good results.  Basically drop your items in and wash them off with clear water.   The product I use is B&G Remover.   I also sandblast some items.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeep Driver]

I tried my hand at plating, similar science just in reverse, transfer of materials. 

The only real reason one might take this seriously is for a concours restoration. 

 

 

 

 

 

Blasting makes quick and dirty work of most parts and much more effective.

 

 

[Eagle]

10 hours ago, DirtyComanche said:

-The process leaves you with a lot of water and sludge.  This water is contaminated with stuff and things, some of which is likely not good.    One of the hardest things for me dispose of is contaminated water since I can't dump it on the ground (well, and hey, it would be wrong), can't dump it down the drain (septic, and again, it'd be wrong), and can't really take it many places since it can't be easily recycled (it's not coolant, oil, or fuel, all of which actually have some value in contaminated waste form).

 

 

The water is dirty, but the sludge is just iron. Dumping it on the ground isn't really any different than taking a rusty part outside and chipping/scraping/brushing the rust off. (I think).

[Manche757]

15 hours ago, 13 Legion said:

https://youtu.be/ACGSzBXKONo

A little different process... 

That is pretty amazing vid.  $80,000 would not be beyond what a body shop could afford.  Looks like a pretty clean process and removes paint too.  That was pretty ballzy for him to place his hand in front of the lazer. Wonder if it rearranges his DNA. Technology will bring the price down. Thanks for the input.  Time for a GoFundMe page?

 

DirtyComanche. Thanks for the green thoughts.  Rust is as natural as you can get.  Iron is used in agricultural processes and iron is in your vitamin pills.  Obviously much smaller quantities. Breathing the dust from sanding poses a bigger risk which you protect against.  The container states that one cup should be used for a load of laundry.  Less is used by the guy who restored the parts in the pics that are shown.  Laundry detergent used to be a big polluter to rivers and streams because the phosphates used in the past would not break down.  Recall seeing foam and bubbles along a river's edge? That was  often the results of phosphates from laundry detergents finding their way into the rivers.  

 

I see you are from Canada.  Gotta question for you:  Some of the Jeeps I see online from northern US states are major rust buckets.  Do you drive your Jeeps in winter?  Fire departments wipe down the underside of fire trucks after every run.  Are you doing anything like that once a month or so?

 

PC06. I see ice on the ground around your tank. I assume the chemical process is not impeded by low ambient temperatures.  Have you used it on a chrome finish that has some rust coming through?  A chrome rim for example.  

 

JeepDriver.  Are you doing your own chrome plating?  If not, what are you plating the items with?  By reversing the process, are you connecting the current so that your desired object is the anode?  Are you suspending the plate material in the bath?

 

 

[Jeep Driver]

1 hour ago, Manche757 said:

That is pretty amazing vid.  $80,000 would not be beyond what a body shop could afford.  Looks like a pretty clean process and removes paint too.  That was pretty ballzy for him to place his hand in front of the lazer. Wonder if it rearranges his DNA. Technology will bring the price down. Thanks for the input.  Time for a GoFundMe page?

 

DirtyComanche. Thanks for the green thoughts.  Rust is as natural as you can get.  Iron is used in agricultural processes and iron is in your vitamin pills.  Obviously much smaller quantities. Breathing the dust from sanding poses a bigger risk which you protect against.  The container states that one cup should be used for a load of laundry.  Less is used by the guy who restored the parts in the pics that are shown.  Laundry detergent used to be a big polluter to rivers and streams because the phosphates used in the past would not break down.  Recall seeing foam and bubbles along a river's edge? That was  often the results of phosphates from laundry detergents finding their way into the rivers.  

 

I see you are from Canada.  Gotta question for you:  Some of the Jeeps I see online from northern US states are major rust buckets.  Do you drive your Jeeps in winter?  Fire departments wipe down the underside of fire trucks after every run.  Are you doing anything like that once a month or so?

 

PC06. I see ice on the ground around your tank. I assume the chemical process is not impeded by low ambient temperatures.  Have you used it on a chrome finish that has some rust coming through?  A chrome rim for example.  

 

JeepDriver.  Are you doing your own chrome plating?  If not, what are you plating the items with?  By reversing the process, are you connecting the current so that your desired object is the anode?  Are you suspending the plate material in the bath?

 

 

Zinc plating. 

Anode or cathode? Thought the anode was the sacrificial metal? Been a long time, but yeah...........

 

My bath was something like this-

2.5 liters tap water
150g epsom salt
50g zinc sulfate (hepta hydrate)
200ml Karo classic (brown)
100ml vinegar
 

 

Best if you have an adjustable power supply, I do not, I used an old power supply for a laptop or some such devise, don't remember. 

 

 

I wouldn't bother again........eh.......maybe.........

[Eagle]

6 hours ago, Jeep Driver said:

Zinc plating. 

Anode or cathode? Thought the anode was the sacrificial metal? Been a long time, but yeah...........

 

My bath was something like this-

2.5 liters tap water
150g epsom salt
50g zinc sulfate (hepta hydrate)
200ml Karo classic (brown)
100ml vinegar
 

 

Best if you have an adjustable power supply, I do not, I used an old power supply for a laptop or some such devise, don't remember. 

 

 

I wouldn't bother again........eh.......maybe.........

 

I don't remember which is which, anode or cathode, either, but it seems to me that both of the videos have it wrong. They both refer to the submerged rebar as the "sacrificial" element, but it's not sacrificing anything. It's being "plated" with ... rust. It's attracting the iron oxide from the rusty parts.

 

In your case, if you used powdered zinc sulphate, how did you make your electrical connections?

 

And what was the purpose of the Karo syrup and vinegar?

[Jeep Driver]

1 hour ago, Eagle said:

 

I don't remember which is which, anode or cathode, either, but it seems to me that both of the videos have it wrong. They both refer to the submerged rebar as the "sacrificial" element, but it's not sacrificing anything. It's being "plated" with ... rust. It's atracting the iron oxide from the rusty parts.

 

In your case, if you used powdered zinc sulphate, how did you make your electrical connections?

 

And what was the purpose of the Karo syrup and vinegar?

Anode I used is pictured below. 

 

As for the Karo, has something to do with improving the density of the solution so the ions migrate better or some such nonsense.........who knows

 

[PCO6]

6 hours ago, Manche757 said:

… PC06. I see ice on the ground around your tank. I assume the chemical process is not impeded by low ambient temperatures.  Have you used it on a chrome finish that has some rust coming through?  A chrome rim for example.  

 

 

Manche757 - It works well in the winter but it works better in the summer.   You can heat it up (submersible heater for example) but I have never felt the need to.   

 

Phosphoric acid won't attack chrome, rubber, glass, plastic, paint, etc.   It will derust any ferrous metal.   if you have rust pits, scratches, etc. on chrome it will remove them and not hurt the chrome.   I've used it on aluminum but you have to keep an eye on it.

 

As for driving my Jeeps in the winter … Hell ya!  it's the best time!   My MJ is only 2WD so not so much but my XJ is a regular driver.

 

 

 

[DirtyComanche]

14 hours ago, Jeep Driver said:

I tried my hand at plating, similar science just in reverse, transfer of materials. 

The only real reason one might take this seriously is for a concours restoration.

 

Be careful with plating fasteners.  Unless you bake them afterwards you have a high risk of causing hydrogen embrittlement.

 

12 hours ago, Eagle said:

 

The water is dirty, but the sludge is just iron. Dumping it on the ground isn't really any different than taking a rusty part outside and chipping/scraping/brushing the rust off. (I think).

 

Maybe?  The problem with electrolysis is it tends to cause ions of everything involved to wind up in solution.  As the point out there is a serious risk if you use stainless steel as the sacrificial anode as it will result in producing a chromate solution, that is extremely toxic and is known to very readily pollute large quantities of ground water, in fact if you produce this solution the only safe was to dispose of it is to evapourate the water off and take the left over powder to a hazmat disposal facility.  I guess if you use an anode that is a known alloy of nothing more than iron and some carbon there is no real risk, but like I said I don't know.

 

10 hours ago, Manche757 said:

DirtyComanche. Thanks for the green thoughts.  Rust is as natural as you can get.  Iron is used in agricultural processes and iron is in your vitamin pills.  Obviously much smaller quantities. Breathing the dust from sanding poses a bigger risk which you protect against.  The container states that one cup should be used for a load of laundry.  Less is used by the guy who restored the parts in the pics that are shown.  Laundry detergent used to be a big polluter to rivers and streams because the phosphates used in the past would not break down.  Recall seeing foam and bubbles along a river's edge? That was  often the results of phosphates from laundry detergents finding their way into the rivers.  

 

I see you are from Canada.  Gotta question for you:  Some of the Jeeps I see online from northern US states are major rust buckets.  Do you drive your Jeeps in winter?  Fire departments wipe down the underside of fire trucks after every run.  Are you doing anything like that once a month or so?

 

Iron oxide in water is toxic.  There's a threshold that you or I can withstand, but beyond that it will kill.  Most vitamin pills actually don't contain iron, as it is something that many people are extremely sensitive to, or if they do it is in very low quantities.  If you leave something outside to rust it releases the iron extremely slowly, as it just isn't that soluble, but doing it this way you produce a highly concentrated solution.  Like I said, I wouldn't dump it on the ground at my place.

 

I wear a full face respirator when grinding, wire wheeling, etc.  And I have airflow and moderate dust control.

 

I drive my 88 in winter.  I clean it when I can, but there is nothing that can be done when it is too cold.  Actually, there is little risk of corrosion when it is cold and stays cold, as the salt they apply is not able to melt the ice/snow and produce an ionic solution.  They do not salt in massive amounts here, unlike in the east where they are subsidizing the salt mines.  Salt also is totally ineffective at making the road safer in most conditions, and a sand/gravel mix is luckily mostly preferred.  I do not have any significant structural rust problems, AMC did a fairly decent job of designing the uniframe and protecting it with zinc to avoid that.  The thin metal of the body is another matter, all the usual places are starting to go in it (rockers, above the wheel wells, floor boards), but that said the body work on the truck was 'fixed' poorly in the past and it is now 30 years old.

[gogmorgo]

X2 on minimal structural rust. Dirty's seen what's left of my rocker panels, on the 330,000-mile '91. And I've got wheelwell bubbles in the bedsides too. But I suspect in my case it's less the road salt and more the sheer amount of gravel pounding mine's done. That super-fine dust gets everywhere, absorbs moisture, and plugs drain holes. Like Dirty mentioned, salt's not all that effective when it gets cold. Plus the cold slows down the rusting reaction. There's so much ancient equipment up North in great shape, because it's preserved so well most of the year, and sunlight doesn't hit so directly. 

Even with a warmer climate like your "north-East", or "rust belt", whatever you want to call it, I still find myself preferring driving on ice to the nasty salty slush you get when you add salt to fresh snow. Ice is a much more predictable surface, and sand works great for added traction. The windshield - and paint-eating crushed rock chunks maybe not so much.

[HOrnbrod]

Just now, gogmorgo said:

Even with a warmer climate like your "north-East", or "rust belt", whatever you want to call it, I still find myself preferring driving on ice to the nasty salty slush you get when you add salt to fresh snow. Ice is a much more predictable surface, and sand works great for added traction. The windshield - and paint-eating crushed rock chunks maybe not so much.

 

Calling out the "warmer climate like your north-East, or rust belt, whatever you want to call it" is like the pot calling the kettle black. Anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon line sucks for vehicles, and the further north you go the suckage increases. You must enjoy driving rust buckets Gog. 

[DirtyComanche]

18 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

 

Calling out the "warmer climate like your north-East, or rust belt, whatever you want to call it" is like the pot calling the kettle black. Anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon line sucks for vehicles, and the further north you go the suckage increases. You must enjoy driving rust buckets Gog. 

 

Stuff in the arctic doesn't rust.  I can tell you that for sure...

 

Besides, I'm not made for the heat.  I'm white.  Like the snow.

[HOrnbrod]

Just now, DirtyComanche said:

 

Stuff in the arctic doesn't rust.  I can tell you that for sure...

 

Didn't know you lived in the arctic Dirty. If it were not for you guys up there, Bondo would go out of business. 

[DirtyComanche]

2 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

 

Didn't know you lived in the arctic Dirty. If it were not for you guys up there, Bondo would go out of business. 

 

Bondo is for collision repair, not rust.

 

Chopped mat fiberglass and epoxy resin is for rust!

[HOrnbrod]

Okay, nobody up there uses Bondo for rust. Then how come don't magnets stick to any metal vehicle up there over five years old? Must be because of all the fiberglass.

[Manche757]

12 hours ago, PCO6 said:

 

Phosphoric acid won't attack chrome, rubber, glass, plastic, paint, etc.   It will derust any ferrous metal.

 

Could it be used to wipe rust from chrome rims without having to set up an immersion bath?  

Some tube vid showed using aluminum foil to clean rust from chrome rims. Have not tried that but I have doubts about how well that would work.

 

Your XJ looks to have oversized tires.  You lifted it?  How much?

[gogmorgo]

Obviously magnets just loose their stick that far north. Too much interference from the north magnetic pole. 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/ktMYDW9Ti9U2 

But in all seriousness, go wander around Street View in any northern city, and find me a rusted out vehicle. You won't.

As to those southern climates you call "north" being warm? Well we got our first frost up here last week...