Automan2164 Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 Updates, updates, who's got the updates. Little bit more done today. Got back in there, pulled the alternator, the vacuum pump, as well as hashed out the "pinning" of the crank. First thing on the menu was pulling out the alternator. It's on the lower left of the engine, tucked under the injection pump. Only a pivot bolt and a tensioner bolt and out it came, took a reference pic for the wires. While it was out, did a little comparo with the new one... I'd say we are playing the same game. Once the alternator was out, I had better access at the vacuum pump. Only two bolts, and it comes right off. It's driven off an accessory shaft, which can be seen in the timing belt pics. It looks like an idler with teeth. It's actually connected to a shaft, the shaft turns the vacuum pump like a distributor, and the vacuum pump turns the oil pump kind of like a distributor would... Block side of it. Once that was out of the way... I knew I was in the same area as the crank pin, so I figured what the hell... In order to do the timing belt, you must "pin" the engine at TDC number one. Basically, there is a notch cut into one of the counterweights on the crank, and there is a hole in the block that you are supposed to drop an alignment pin down into to lock it in place while the belt is changed. Here is a pic from the manual for visual reference. What lurks behind this ominous plug? I think we know. I am surprised how much the timing relies on a somewhat poorly fitting belt cover. TDC #1 ballpark is when the timing marks line up with the arrows on the cover. So close I can smell it. Look at that amazing notch cleavage... Little tweak and I had it lined up. Ding! You are actually supposed to have a special pin that fits the bore of the hole exactly and hits the crank notch center. Not wanting to speak yet another language, I figured I might improvise... Fits like a glove, and with almost no movement out of the crank. It drops right in with the most satisfying engagement. Good feeling. The beginning of many, many, many reference marks. That's where I left off... I have to pull the crank pulley yet, but that's really the only thing besides the tensioner in the way of taking the belt off. I want a full day when I pull that stinking belt off, so I think the next update will be this weekend when I get a full day to stab away. Stay tuned. Rob :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opsled Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Walla!! :clapping: All downhill from here. So much for Mott tool 861. Once you've done one they really are'nt that bad. The one I have had blown the belt prior to me getting it. Besides broken parts because of piston/valve interferance timing to install a new belt is not so easy. What Rob is doing here (and by the looks of it does this with everything he tackles) that is key to a good mechanic is to know the animal you are dealing with before you start tossing wrenches at it. There are many oddities out there that get a bad rap because they have special needs that were'nt taken care of when they were needed and/or proper procedures were'nt followed to take care of the needs. Even if you never own one of these there are lessons to be learned by watching Rob's progress. (nice job) They can be applied elsewhere. These little Renaults are one of those oddities. They are good engines that will last a long time if taken care of. The one we have here has over 260K on it now with 410 gears. That's a lot of turns of the crank. If I could get a new one today and parts were available I wouldn't hesitate. This thread will be searchable and will help many who own one of these critters. I looked and looked when I got mine and found almost nothing on the net. This thread would have been a big help at the time. I don't know if it can be done now but if you could add the words "Renault 2.1 Diesel" to the thread title it would be found much quicker on a google search. Nice Job Rob, opsled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neohic Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Said it before and I'll say it again... this is cool! The detail that you're posting up makes working on one of these seem not so bad. Thanks... now I want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Might have to wait until next weekend for any updates. My phone just took a crap, and that's what I use to take all the pictures and catalog my progress. They said it's going to be 4 to 5 days, so that puts my next full day at next Saturday... I don't want to go through all of this without being able to chronicle it for the masses. Rob :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 Did end up picking up a little something something today after all. I took a trip to JoAnn's fabrics, and found some headliner/visor material. They had some really close colors in a few styles of fabric, but I ended up settling on a Duck Canvas. The color is almost a spot on match. I brought a headrest along for comparison, and ended up with "Classic Burgundy" color. Interior for reference: Swatch from their site: It's pretty on par in person. It was half off, so I picked it up for under $6 a yard. I am also pretty pumped about the fact that it's canvas, and might be a bit tougher on tears/damage, while making it a breeze to actually put some elbow grease to if I need to clean it. Angela's brother sort of volunteered some camera action, so I might dive into the timing belt after all tomorrow. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 I ended up sitting down and taking my phone apart. Nothing looked too out of place, but I cleaned everything up as well as some contacts under the cover... Voila! It works. That let me dive into it. Started the daunting task of the timing belt today before a road block and some rain made me go inside. Started with re-pinning the engine, and tossing on the cam/IP lock. Then the impact came out, and zipped off the crank bolt. Not too much holding it on besides the roll pins and the bolt... The timing gear does all the heavy lifting. Note the timing marks. With that exposed, I could count all my teeth between timing marks. 3 times. Then noted. 52 between crank and cam, 19 between cam and IP, and 77 between IP and crank. Once I counted all the teeth between the belt and added them up, I ended with 148. Then I counted all the teeth on the new belt, 148. In the process of that, I noticed the new belt had some weird lines on it in very odd places... Then I counted between a set... 19 teeth. No $#!&. The exact same indexing marks between the timing marks on the crank, IP, and cam. All counted out to be the exact same as what I counted out on the original belt. Super sweet. Once that was noted... Only one thing left to do... Pull the tensioner. And... No going back. All seemed to be going pretty swimmingly, until I went to take out the idler. Seems to be pressed into the IP bracket, with no sign of any sort of bolt/retainer/keeper other than fit. New one. I played with getting in there to get behind it for awhile, but I just really can't pry against much back there. There are only a few ribs to pry against, and I don't want to go to town on them. I don't have a puller that would pull from the back without pushing on the center, which is not what I want. I think I might have something at work that might help, but I am unsure if it's too big or not. We have a plated bearing/pulley separator that brings two plates into each other. I might be able to get that in and behind the idler, and coax it out... See what happens tomorrow. For now, the rain brought me in, and it's time to make some easter dinner. Feel free to post up any ideas on the idler though. Rob :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whowey Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 This might be the guy you are looking for... but I'm not sure if it will fit in there or not. I'm having a time finding dimensions on it. http://www.ktoolinternational.com/KTI/C ... =KTI-70383 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 That's what I am talking about with the 2 blades... We have a similar Snap-on one at work. I'll bring it home along with me tomorrow and see what happens. I did discuss this with Pat, who has an engine out of the truck, and he confirmed my problem. He's got the same game plan I am on... I will try to delicately get it off, if I can't, I'll just continue on with the old one. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 Video of how the existing pulley spins... _lCegp8X6OM Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whowey Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 There are a handful of sizes of bearing separators. The smallest I remember seeing is about three inches between the bolts. Getting the new one in though looks like a rawhide mallet and some prayer might be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 I did rap on the old one a few times to see if it would move, and it did move in, so I know it's doable by hand. If it hadn't moved at all, I'd be worried. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 Good news gentlemen, good news. :D Made up a game plan at work today to get that idler off... I knew I'd be bringing home that bearing separator, but the boss tossed in some pearls of advice. All that turned into this. First I wrangled the bearing separator in the small space I had to work with and started tightening it down slowly. It was going along well, hoping to have it bite in behind the pulley, rather than into it. Based on the room I had behind it, the latter seemed like the more likely one. Lo and behold, as I was cranking down, it started to dig in behind... Huge weight off my shoulders. Not only that, but as it was digging in, it was actually forcing the assembly out. Once I tightened it down until the curvature touched the pulley, out came the bosses plan. I was trying to figure out how to pull at the separator without putting awkward pressure on one side. He suggested making a piece of flat stock that I could put across it, tap the center for the slide hammer, and this was the result. It was already most of the way out when I got the separator in place, but the slide hammer helped it out the final few mm's. Just barely enough room. Bam! Old and new. I was a bit worried about getting the new one back in as far as straight/proper, so I started slow. Once I put the new idler up to the hole, I knew it was all downhill. It sat in so straight to begin with. A few light taps of the hammer, and it drove itself right in. Next up, the old tensioning device. With the new style tensioner, there is no tab for this thing to push on any longer. The new one just relies on attention every now and then, but so did the old one. Before, you would loosen the tensioner, the spring would take up the slack, then you would re-tighten it. Not anymore. Being that there isn't any tab for that to rest on, it had to go, no matter how stuck in it was. I didn't want it to come loose someday, and make friends with the spinning belt. It was really locked up in there. It's housed by the water pump, so I was trying to be delicate while trying to beat the friggen thing out. I managed to chip a part of the aluminum while trying to use a chisel to grab the cylinder and coax it out. Eventually, the chisel caught, and it started moving. Vice grips were the finishing move. New tensioner and idler, happy to be in their new home. Time for the belt to go back on. It became immediately evident how much tighter and more firm the new belt was to wrestle. Took me a few minutes, but eventually, I beat it into submission. Managed to get all the marks lined up. Then out came the green tooth counting marker... All is in place correctly and legit. For reference. I then took out the crank pin, the cam/IP lock, and started turning it, feeling for any unusual contact. Everything seemed ok, so I plugged back off the pin hole, and moved on. It's good to have that belt back in and in place. I had a celebratory beer, and moved on to the vacuum pump. I picked up a few o-rings, but all seemed to be a bit too big to fit back into the block. I'll have to stop by the auto parts store with the pump again, and see if I can scare up some rings that are the right size. Belt is in though! Did I say that!? Belt is in! All down hill from here! Rob :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sam Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 Sorry for the lack of updates fellas... Been busy lately, and when I get the chance to do something, it's crappy outside. Hope to be back on it in a day or two. Rob :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Holy crap. Where did I leave off? Well... I have been nipping away at this thing for a few weeks now in my free time, but just never thought that there was anything really worth posting. I finally have a chance to sit down and toss up pics and info. Grab a beer, this might be a long one. I believe I left off just after installing the belt. Let's continue. With the belt in loose, I figured it was time to start wrapping up the rest. The manual called for some gasket maker between the crank pulley and the timing gear on the crank, so I did as instructed. Put the bolt in, and torqued it down to spec (70 Lb ft IIRC). I also tensioned and put the final guesstimate on the timing belt tension... I just used the tension between the cam and the IP that were locked in place as a sort of guide. Seeing as I don't have the sonic belt tension gauge that gates specifies. :roll: In order to keep the whole works set, since I'm not a huge fan of the new style, I employed some screw strength threadlocker. With the belt situated for the most part, I moved on. O-ring after o-ring I tried on the vacuum pump just wouldn't work. It was a really thin, odd ball size that I couldn't track down in any assortment. So... I put the old one back on, and out came the RTV. Annnnnddd... Back in it went. Next it was time to get rid of all the old coolant in the system. I dropped the thermostat, took the heater hoses off, and got to spraying. Green coolant? Ack... Thermostat gasket was roached, and I had no idea when the last time it got some love was. Quick call to the local CarQuest (Thanks guys!), and they actually had the correct 178 degree stat and gasket in stock. I had the GF run to pick up the parts since she was in town, but she came back less one part. The gasket they listed as in stock, but they were out. Good luck anyway, as the picture later revealed their listed gasket was an o-ring, rather than the lip seal that goes around the edge. Moving on, I started putting the radiator and such back in. Belts anyone? Happy belted alternator. Yeah... Something like that... Eesh. Time to take loose that thermostatic capsule to put the new one in. A few days had passed, and with a trip to CarQuest, I found the correct gasket I was after for the thermostat. With most of the rif-raf out of the way still the temp sensor got changed also. I was a little unsure as to whether it was a sensor or a switch like the box says, so I got out the DVOM, and stuck it in my mouth to get an ohm reading. Dropped with the heat of my mouth, which told me it was a sensor. With all that back in, it was time to finish out my coolant swap with the new stuff. I decided to go with the Ford/Chrysler Gold coolant, as from what I read, it does well with soft metals, and passes the specs of a few heavy engine manufacturers. With the green flushed out the best I could, it got filled up and topped off with the gold. It was easy to flush, as the green/gold didn't get along, and the gold would push out the green from any loose hose. Finally got back to that thermostatic capsule... What a pain to get the lock ring out. New v old. Empty bore. Had a bit of mineral (Or I hope it's a mineral) buildup left behind in the capsule. Belts back in and tight. Capsule going back in. Overall, it all went back in smooth for the most part. I decided to leave off the timing belt cover to let me keep an eye on it. I don't plan on driving it without the cover, but wanted to make sure it was kosher. I will have to take off the accessory belts again when I go to put it back on though, so I'll deal with that at a later time. I rechecked everything multiple times, and it all came down to this... r2AbK43mLdQ uBVgLslvzsg Still a bunch of issues to work out, like what that groan is now, the tach, the temp gauge... the list goes on... But, at least it's not a step back. It starts, it hasn't exploded, and I'm no worse than when I started... Eh? Not bad right? :D Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue88Comanche Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 :drool: :drool: :drool: awesome :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComancheKid45 Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Hey i reconize that can ( or bottle) Coozy. 8) Progress is great so far! :wrench: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMJ Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Favorite part of the first vid: "Lets let the glow plugs kick in." Something you don't hear/see all too often with the MJ's. Awesome progress so far and I applaud you for your patience man. Keep it up RockMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share Posted May 12, 2012 Did some more tinkering with it today. I stopped by the local JY, and picked up a new accelerator pedal assembly since I mangled the original one getting the carpet out. $10 later, and I had myself one of those fancy working gas pedals. Got home, put it in, and let the tinkering begin. It's great to be able to start it and keep it going without being somewhat of a contortionist, reaching for the throttle cable. I started by finding out where that new groan was coming from. Being that the only major change was the timing belt, I tried letting a little slack off of it and seeing what would happen. I loosened the tensioner enough for it to relax and bit and fired it up. No more noise. Still runs - Strike that, Idles - like a bag of a$$holes, but that's another issue. It seems to be smoother throughout with the belt relaxed a bit. With that knocked out, I changed the fuel filter since I bought one, and it had been sitting on the passenger side floor for awhile. Seems to run, just run, not idle, better yet. I am pretty determined that the goofy tachometer and the stationary temp gauge have to be some piddly detail that I keep overlooking. For those who haven't been with us since the beginning, the temp gauge is stone dead, and the tach has to be doubled + of actual value. With the extent of the mechanical gremlins not requiring the tach sorted, it's time to figure that out. I need a correct, hell at least ball park, RPM identifier besides my ears. I broke out the manuals, and the DVOM. I started with the simple stuff. First I took the signal wire off the alternator to see if it would act different. Sure enough, tach didn't move. At least I know I have some sort of signal coming through. Next check. Continuity from the ground to the neg post. Good, not much for ohms, but I decided to put the signal wire back on, and add an additional jumper from the ground to the neg post. Still way high on the tach. I ran myself a jumper to the a pillar straight to neg so I could next test the pins on the cluster to a clean ground. This is where I finally remembered I had my phone and snapped a couple pics for you guys. Schematics for those who want to follow along and can read these: I tested all the pins that should have voltage, all tested good. All the pins that should have ground tested good. The tach pin started at about 5 volts and increased with RPM. The temp sensor pin crept up in resistance as the engine cooled. I then turned my attention to the gauges themselves, checking that each component had a good connection to the connector terminal from where it originates in the printed board. All seemed good there... But by this point it was getting pretty dark, and I had to call it a night. Anyone know why the tach would read so high? I was thinking poor ground... Excessive voltage is a thought, but I just don't know. With the old alternator, and the new alternator, all is the same. Except for the not charging that is. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'm saying this for the first time ever, there are too many pictures in this thread. CC doesn't run fast enough for me to scroll through this at my regular pace. Other than that, nice work Rob. Keep it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 More good news guys. I finally got the temp gauge working, so I can feel free to putter around or let it run for longer without worry of not knowing the temperature. I've been searching for some time to have someone who has an idea of what they are doing take a look at the static timing and the idle on it. I thought I had a home run when I went to the guy a town away. He's been a European import guy since before I could even remember, so I thought I would be a shoe-in. His sign is even a Bosch service sign, and his lot is always filled with BMW's, Mercedes, a Porsche or two, and the occasional Rolls. A guy at work takes his Subaru there for service, and he always has great prices and service. I went in there to ask about having him do the work. He got as far as me telling him what kind of engine was in it, and he stopped me. His reply was that the "Renault has just enough Peugot influence on it that I want nothing to do with it." Great. The guy who works on the weird stuff says my stuff is too weird for him... Ugh. Yesterday, one of the guys at work and I were talking, and he mentioned someone I had forgotten about. In the town I work for, there is a guy who runs a small shop, and breathes diesel. Having nothing else to lose, I decided to stop over there after work and see what he thought. I told him what I had. He sounded up to it from the get go. He started asking questions about it that helped me trust that he knows enough to give it a shot. His reputation also sup-recedes him also. He looked up the general labor times, and estimated he could check/adjust the timing on it, and play with the idle for $150-200. Sold. I am bringing him the FSM's on Monday to page through, and hopefully schedule an appointment for next week. (He's booked until then). I am also going to check and see if I can hang out when he does the work to learn. Can't wait to have it be-bopping around this summer! Rob :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 Couple more updates today. I finally got everything back together, and have been tinkering with it. Here's a video. -W3U9izSOQI Pic of the idle stop, before I moved it... I had to move it until it touched the throttle and then some. Cover back on. I got it all back together today, and once that throttle was stepped up a bit, I took it around the block a couple times. It still has absolutely no power. I am really hoping that the timing is off. If this is really all I have, I will be grossly disappointed. I mean, I'm not sure what 85 horsepower is supposed to feel like, but I hope it's not what I currently have. D-day is next Wednesday, so we will see what happens. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I admire your dedication and work ethic on this diesel project Rob, really. :cheers: But as you know this Renault engine was always anemic even in top form, and never had a stellar reliability reputation. Hope you get it to where you want it, but can't help feeling it's like beating a dead horse. Wish you the best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 I admire your dedication and work ethic on this diesel project Rob, really. :cheers: But as you know this Renault engine was always anemic even in top form, and never had a stellar reliability reputation. Hope you get it to where you want it, but can't help feeling it's like beating a dead horse. Wish you the best of luck. All my research and information seeking is really pointing the other way. It seems that overseas where people have the intelligence and the diligence to take care of the maintenance of them, they last a long time. I had someone from Italy or France stumble on to some of my posts/videos, and he was raving about it. Over here, they have a bad rep because we just never had the diesel savvy small shops and repair places to take note and perform the needed maintenance. I keep hearing that the power should be adequate, I'm just thinking that the pump isn't in time, and that's why I have my lack of power. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Renault parts source? http://www.winnebagoparts.com/about-renault.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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