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Hidden Winch Design Proposal


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Rob did it again. Last week he posted something I just must have on my truck. However, I am not quite the purist he is and have been doing some idea sketching. So I have been doing some research on the factory Hidden Winch option. From what I gather, it was just a simple set of brackets that held a winch plate in front of the cross member, held the bumper 3" out from the body and had the cable coming through a hole cut in the factory bumper.

 

For those of you who are lost:

 

Needless to say, I want something of the same sort on my Comanche. For starters, I have never found a winch bumper I liked for the XJ that did not cost $700. Since the Hidden Winch options are no longer available and are nearly impossible to find, to the drawing board I went. Then to SketchUp I went... I pulled up the FSM and used the frame/body dimensions to build the frame rails and cross member. It is FAR from perfect, but good enough for illustrative purposes.

 

I have designed everything using 1/4" steel, the recommended thickness for a solid winch plate from my understanding. The Winch Plate Brackets/Unibody Braces extend 14" down the frame for additional strength (this is typical for the high end winch bumper set ups I found). They will even brace the steering box. An additional set of Under Frame Straps utilize the the same design front mounted hitches use by tapping into the swaybar mount for more sheer strength. The winch plate is weld to the Winch Plate Brackets/Unibody Braces and Under Frame Straps, and has 1/4" plate wrapped around the plate for vertical strength with 3 drain slots in the rear.

 

Please critique, question and constructively criticize my design here. This is the first time I have tried to design anything to this magnitude and felt that I might actually get to implement it. I have scads of, poor design sketches. I plan to cut the metal myself and have a buddy with a 220v welder put it together.

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So when can I own one?

 

Here is all the info I have on the factory hidden winch:

 

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f177/xj- ... h-1157054/

 

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24496

 

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attachme ... page_2.jpg

 

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attachme ... page_4.jpg

 

This is the factory parts manual, check Figure 13, 900-1100.

http://www.xjjeeps.com/com_xjjeeps/manu ... atalog.pdf

 

Looks pretty cheesy, but factory none the less.

Rob

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nice design!

 

only thing I would add is a bolt-in front brace that will eliminate the use of nuts to bolt the factory front bumper on (tap the steel so all you need is a bolt), and I would make that brace bolt in, and run above the fairlead, in front of the winch. removable so that to remove/repair/inspect the winch, you don't need to pull the whole winch mount subframe.

 

 

The only issue I have, and it's one that can't be combatted, is the low aproach angle that it will give you. the only option I see to offset that is to move the winch plate up higher, which would mean cutting up the grille, and would defeat the purpose of a hidden winch.

 

this is something I'd love to have on all of my DD comanches. it would get used for utilitarian purposes.

 

keep up the planning!

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Ive thought about doing something like this. I thought that it would be better to cut out the crossmember and put the winch back further. That way it is really hidden. The factory one stuck out 3 inches and only fit a 6,000# winch, an 8,000# winch will stick out even further. Whatever would be built to hold the winch would be stronger than the factory crossmember. I thought about using a hydraulic winch that runs off the power steering pump since they seem to be smaller. Ive read other people's write ups on doing this and one thing to keep in mind is most winches arent designed to pull from their feet, so don't put it so the bottom is were the crossmember would be and have the cable run out the top of the winch. Your plans look pretty good, I would definately tap the holes so you don't have to use nuts on the bumper brackets. :wrench:

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what were the steps involved when whoever did the hidden winch inside the crossmember? i know several members have done it. that way you wouldnt loose the approach angle and depending on what you had to do it might be less work.

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Like the work...would def want one if the design proves out. Couple of questions:

 

1) Like the additional brace for the steering box, but it would necessarily mean longer bolts..correct?

2) Would it change the angle of the sway bar mount to the extent that custom end links would be required?

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Good idea and good work. I have always favored the idea of having the winch under the bed, directly behind the cab, enabling the cable to be run either forward or back under the truck, or even up thru the bed to a boom or A frame. How many people, besides me, cringe when they see ads for sale with winch spelled 'wench'?

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Good idea and good work. I have always favored the idea of having the winch under the bed, directly behind the cab, enabling the cable to be run either forward or back under the truck, or even up thru the bed bed to a boom or A frame. How many people, besides me, cringe when they see ads for sale with winch spelled 'wench'?

I dunno -- before I met and married my wife I was always on the lookout for an affordable Jeep wench.

 

Then there was the ad some years ago for a somewhat modified Wrangler, in which the seller proudly proclaimed "worn hubs."

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This was an option I so badly wanted to persue, but even if we could get someone to create plans, wasn't their issues around winches not being compatible with a hidden winch schema? Such frustrations took me to another solution, not a hidden winch, but at least it worked with most winches on the market.

 

http://icelandoffroad.com/CherokeeXJ/XJ ... fault.aspx

 

:dunno:

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The only issue I have, and it's one that can't be combatted, is the low aproach angle that it will give you. the only option I see to offset that is to move the winch plate up higher, which would mean cutting up the grille, and would defeat the purpose of a hidden winch.

 

this is something I'd love to have on all of my DD comanches. it would get used for utilitarian purposes.

My truck won't be a hardcore wheeler by any means. My use for the winch would be utilitarian purposes and security when out camping in the woods.

 

I read other people's write ups on doing this and one thing to keep in mind is most winches arent designed to pull from their feet, so don't put it so the bottom is were the crossmember would be and have the cable run out the top of the winch.

This is important to note. Mounting the winch on a vertical surface would save space space and make mounting easier, but a winch designed for such mounting can not be found

 

what were the steps involved when whoever did the hidden winch inside the crossmember?

Looks like I have some more research to do!!!

 

Like the work...would def want one if the design proves out. Couple of questions:

 

1) Like the additional brace for the steering box, but it would necessarily mean longer bolts..correct?

2) Would it change the angle of the sway bar mount to the extent that custom end links would be required?

I borrowed the plating design from JCR. I believe their tie-in brackets include extended bolts for the steering box. For the under frame strap, it would simply just move the swaybar mounts down 1/4". I doubt that would alter the links. I will have adjustable JKS discos on the truck so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

I would add in "D" ring mounts while i was at it, i think $500 MJ made something that looked pretty good & went well with the factory bumper...

HA. Thought about this today in almost the exact same fashion 500 built his :yes:

 

This was an option I so badly wanted to persue, but even if we could get someone to create plans, wasn't their issues around winches not being compatible with a hidden winch schema?

Mounting is the issue. Using a new style winch that needs to be mounted feet down on the factory hidden winch design,feet to the side, can cause winch failure.

 

Let me know if you need some assistance fabbing up the plates.

Wow. Thank you for the offer. I may have to take you up on that eventually. That would be a such a time saver!

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This is important to note. Mounting the winch on a vertical surface would save space space and make mounting easier, but a winch designed for such mounting can not be found

 

 

I have a Desert Dynamic 9,000lb winch mounted on my trailer made to be mounted either vertical or horizontal. Has 4 threaded bolt holes, 2 on each end, on both the bottom and rear of the winch.

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I drew up a drivers front tow point bracket tonight that incorporates the steering gear bolts for additional support locations, which I see you have also done with your design. But, upon designing the passenger side, I noticed there aren't many existing holes over there to tie into. In fact, the only holes I see are the three front bumper bracket holes. Was wondering what you did for your design. My passenger front tow point bracket is likely going to require that a few holes be drilled through the frame rail.

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I drew up a drivers front tow point bracket tonight that incorporates the steering gear bolts for additional support locations, which I see you have also done with your design. But, upon designing the passenger side, I noticed there aren't many existing holes over there to tie into. In fact, the only holes I see are the three front bumper bracket holes. Was wondering what you did for your design. My passenger front tow point bracket is likely going to require that a few holes be drilled through the frame rail.

I borrowed an idea I saw on the JCR bracket and utilized the hole that runs through the frame on both sides. IIRC it is about 12" from the front of the frame rails. This give you 4 mounting holes on the passenger side and seems to be widely accepted by the XJ winch bumper manufactures. I suspect you could follow $500MJ's idea and drill an additional hole on the passenger side between the front and rear bumper mounts and 'play hold the nut with needle nose pliers and hope it sticks.'

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Another Trial:

- D-Ring mounts

- Gussets for lateral strength with D-Rings

- Pulled back the bumper bracket relocation mounts 1" (total of 3" extended now)

- Pulling the bumper mounts back also brought the side plate back an 1".

- Winch plate has less material in the front corners now. 4" of contact between winch plate and side plate on each side. (this is still more than my TJ's winch plate)

- Bracing around winch feet

- Removable fairlead mount is nearly the width of the winch and spaced away from the winch plate for drainage

- Nut Straps for bumper bolts

 

Hoping to cut out some physical models out of 1/4 foam board to build a mock up... and to see how close I got following the FSM dimensions. With no XJ or MJ with me it feels more like a guessing game.

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I do have to ask now that you said you've been away from your vehicles - where did you find such accurate dimensions of the bolt holes on the MJ/XJ frame? I checked my '92 FSM and my '01 FSM and the only frame dimensions that I saw were some very basic point-to-point measurements which could maybe be used by a frame straightening guy to get a wrecked frame back into alignment. I didn't see anything in the way of hole spacing so I assumed you were taking your own measurements. I went through four cardboard "prototypes" last night getting my hole spacing right, but if there's a dimensioned frame drawing out there, that would have saved, oh, three hours LOL

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Also if you have 3 water outlets in the back I'd suggest putting 2 in the front on each corner... Just small enough slits for water to get out...

 

:agree:

 

My front bumper is designed for the winch it carries (not hidden), but the pan directly underneath the winch is full of mud and it's REALLY hard to get it out 'cause it doesn't have drain holes.

 

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I would buy one if you made em :bowdown:

Also if you have 3 water outlets in the back I'd suggest putting 2 in the front on each corner... Just small enough slits for water to get out... Also like the d-ring idea!

I certainly don't have the ability to make and sell. All I could do is share the plans.

 

I will be adding holes for drainage in the winch plate its self. This will happen once I start marking the location for the winch mounts. Thanks for pointing out the need for additional drainage.

 

I do have to ask now that you said you've been away from your vehicles - where did you find such accurate dimensions of the bolt holes on the MJ/XJ frame? I checked my '92 FSM and my '01 FSM and the only frame dimensions that I saw were some very basic point-to-point measurements which could maybe be used by a frame straightening guy to get a wrecked frame back into alignment. I didn't see anything in the way of hole spacing so I assumed you were taking your own measurements. I went through four cardboard "prototypes" last night getting my hole spacing right, but if there's a dimensioned frame drawing out there, that would have saved, oh, three hours LOL

You are correct. To get the basic design of the front frame rails I used those basic dimensions in the FSM. Once I knew the location of some of the major points on the frame I scaled several images with the perspective removed and followed the outline. I know it is not perfect, but it should be good enough for illustration.

 

I plan on throwing a piece of tracing paper on the frame this weekend, as well as get actual dimensions. Then tweak the drawing accordingly (or start a new one depending on the level of alterations needed).

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