Belt noise--Harmonic Balancer (with pics)

[coolwind57]

So 3-4 days ago I noticed some noise coming from the engine.  Sounded almost like some knocking at first but as I looked more closely, I narrowed it down to belt-driven area.  All looked ok, with some noticable wear on the idler pulley and maybe a bit of movement of it with engine running.  I figured the bearing was going out; an easy swap so I dropped a 20 and quickly swapped it out.  The new one turned better with zero noise, although the old one wasn't really that noisy to begin with.

 

Fired it up and I hear the same noise.  Water pump is probably less than a year old, with no weeping.  Alternator visually looked good, as was power steering pump.

 

A closer visual inspection found what you're seeing in the pics below.  I haven 't confirmed with 100-percent certainty, but I'm thinking this is my issue.  It kinda looks bad, huh?

 

So, what am I in for? 

 

I hadn't pulled a harmonic balancer before.  Is it as simple as removing the center bolt, getting a puller in there, and pulling it off, slapping a new one on and getting it aligned the same as the old?  Looks like there may be a keyway on pics of new ones, so perhaps alignment and timing isn't such an issue?  Of course I'm really not optimistic that its all that simple, so for you that had done this replacement, please spill the goods to hook a brutha up.  

 

 

     

[OldManComanche]

You got it! I did this a couple of weeks ago. No major problems. The three holes around the center bolt are threaded, so you can screw bolts into them when you use a puller. Pull the center bolt and give it a squirt of penetrating oil and let it sit for a while. When you get the balancer off check the cam chain cover for a wear groove due to the rubber cushion bulging out. Also if you need to change the timing chain (loose, slack) now is your chance as you have already done the hard part.

 

   Have fun!

[coolwind57]

2 minutes ago, OldManComanche said:

You got it! I did this a couple of weeks ago. No major problems. The three holes around the center bolt are threaded, so you can screw bolts into them when you use a puller. Pull the center bolt and give it a squirt of penetrating oil and let it sit for a while. When you get the balancer off check the cam chain cover for a wear groove due to the rubber cushion bulging out. Also if you need to change the timing chain (loose, slack) now is your chance as you have already done the hard part.

 

   Have fun!

Thanks man.  I appreciate you sharing your experience.

 

I suppose my post was a little premature, as I just thought to find a youtube video and found a pretty good one that did a good job of showing it all.  

 

Any good ideas on how to keep that engine crank locked while getting that center bolt out?  Dude on the video mentioned automatic trans guys removing a spark plug and sticking a rope inside to hold it from turning.  I'd like to think I can get an impact in there.

  

[JustEmptyEveryPocket]

To add to OldManComanche: make sure to pull the washer as well as the center bolt, otherwise you will crank the hell out of the HB puller and wonder why its not coming off (don't ask me how I know that. Its embarrassing how long that took me to figure out.). Also make sure you get a HB install tool. Otherwise its a super simple job, all things considered. Good luck!

[Wounded_Fighter]

Simple as f---.

Done it twice on mine now, once to replace and once to do timing set.

Might want to check timing chain while your that deep

[JustEmptyEveryPocket]

1 minute ago, Wounded_Fighter said:

check timing chain while your that deep

Made me think about replacing the crank seal while you are in there. If its weeping change it. If its dry leave it alone.

[Wounded_Fighter]

1 minute ago, JustEmptyEveryPocket said:

Made me think about replacing the crank seal while you are in there. If its weeping change it. If its dry leave it alone.

Now that was fun to figure out... thought I was gonna break the cover getting it out!!

[JustEmptyEveryPocket]

Yea, I did mine in the truck with the radiator and everything in place. I bought a cheap seal puller and cut the handle so I could get it in place. Still OP, I recommend you keep your fingers crossed and hope the seal is dry.

[OldManComanche]

coolwind57,  You mentioned a "knock" sound in the original post, a loose timing chain will knock or rattle especially at idle speed. From the pictures, you NEED a balancer, but from the description you may need a new timing chain / sprockets. The kits usually have chain, sprockets, cover gasket, chain cushion, and a crank seal. The timing chains that I have done had an amazing amount of slack in them. The Jeeps ran noticeably better after replacing the chain.

  

[SVPete]

Highly recommend you replace the seal while you have it off, otherwise you will likely get to remove the new balancer in a few months to do it.

 

Been there.

[AZJeff]

3 hours ago, coolwind57 said:

 

Any good ideas on how to keep that engine crank locked while getting that center bolt out?  Dude on the video mentioned automatic trans guys removing a spark plug and sticking a rope inside to hold it from turning.  I'd like to think I can get an impact in there.

  

If you can’t get your impact in there, you can jam a short stout screwdriver though one of the spokes on the HB, and wedge it under the shelf of the engine block where the oil pan attaches.  That will hold the HB while you use a breaker bar to free the bolt.

[coolwind57]

Well, all done.  Here's my experience.

 

1.  Obviously, the harmonic balancer was approaching death.  But that wasn't the noise-maker.  It was the water pump that I put on less than a year ago.  Autozone honored the warrantee and I got a free replacement.  Hand spinning the water pump make it obvious that it was the culprit.  

2.  There was no need to remove the radiator.  The center dampner bolt is below the bottom of the radiator anyhow.  The traditional harmonic balancer removal "loaner" kit gave adequate clearance just behind the rear of the front bumper to get it off.  I was able to break the center bolt by gently wedging some locking pliers in between the harmonic balancer pully and another pulley.  Removal was smooth. I even forgot to spray the area with break-free before I installed the removal tool.  Pulled off with ease.

11 hours ago, JustEmptyEveryPocket said:

Made me think about replacing the crank seal while you are in there. If its weeping change it. If its dry leave it alone.

3.  My front seal and timing cover was dry as a bone.  I left it along and I lubed up the new balancer contact area real well before installing to try to protect that seal.  Took JustEmptyEveryPocket's advice:

10 hours ago, SVPete said:

Highly recommend you replace the seal while you have it off, otherwise you will likely get to remove the new balancer in a few months to do it.

 

Been there.

4.   I saw your advice after I got the job done.  I'll see how it goes.  It wasn't nearly bad a job as I expected, so God-willing I won't have to remove it again.  I'll keep an eye out for leaks.

5.  In additional to the removal kit, I also rented an install kit.  That was a good move.  Went on as smoothly as removal.

6.  Fired her up after all was re-installed and she's as quiet as she can be.  TONS quieter.

 

I appreciate all the advice fellas.  Once again, I benefited from coming on and asking some questions.  

[75sv1]

I went through this a few years back. Mine was more involved as it wiped out the thrust bearing and scored the crank. Fortunately, my neighbor had a good used crank. I actually used the bearings from that motor. So, I'd check crank end play. Also, I recommend people to replace the harmonic balance as a service item. 

[Big_Mark]

I just did this yesterday, my HB was also separating, removal was easy, inspected the bearing seal it was "fine" so I'll run it as is and replace it later (when it's rebuild time).

The hardest part was getting the new HB back on since the bolt is too short to use to run the HB all the way down. Fortunately I have a 2 bolt steering wheel puller that has the same thread as the main bolt so I was able to place the HB on the end of the crank, then with the big washer in place, threaded the 2bolt puller into the crank, then I turned the 2 bolt puller (the part of the puller where you run the bolts through) body in by hand, this got the HB to move down the end of the crankshaft. I did this by hand until I couldn't turn it by hand, then I used a socket to keep cranking the HB down until it stopped. Next remove the puller, replace and torque the bolt.

 

Also someone asked how to keep the crank from turning when removing the bolt. I just used a punch placed through the HB slots (screw driver might work too) then turned the bolt and held the punch until the HB and punch bound on the block, then a couple of hard, palm of hand, taps on the bolt broke it loose.

 

Same process for getting it back on.

 

Pro tip - If removing this in vehicle, remove the fan shroud so the puller doesn't bind on it near the bottom like mine did.