Pete M Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 I don't have the patience to dig through all the data, but all I want to know is: how many of the (non defensive) shootings were done by someone that was a legally carrying owner and how many would have been prevented by any of the recent laws Because if the goal of new laws is to prevent deaths, they need to prove the Law would actually do something. In my face-to-face discussions with anti-gun people I find a very common thread of "well, we need to try something" and that statement won't get you anywhere with an individual that believes this is a non negotiable right of being a US citizen. also, to the pro-2nd amendment guys, do keep in mind that the vast majority of anti-gun people are just moms and dads trying to make what they feel is a safer world. bringing Hitler or other Dictators into the discussion won't help you gain traction in changing their minds because they aren't Hitler and most people can't conceive of the US someday becoming 1930s Germany. They are just people trying to prevent another shooting. Ya gotta walk around that area, even if keeping the King of England out of your face was a main reason for the founders putting in the 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Your point is well taken, Pete. But the people behind so-called "grass roots" anti-gun groups like Moms Demand action or Everytown for Gun Safety (both front organizations for Bloomberg's millions of anti-gun dollars) are not "just moms and dads trying to make what they feel is a safer world." Most of the people who get sucked into those (and similar) organizations are "just moms and dads trying to make what they feel is a safer world," but the organizations themselves are anything BUT grass roots organizations. And they have been proven to use wildly inflated (or just made up) statistics, time and time again. So, I'm sorry to say, all those "just moms and dads trying to make what they feel is a safer word" are dupes. They are useful idiots who have been suckered by the anti-gun snake oil hucksters. The issue here is that, if you look at actual causes of death in the United States, gun deaths don't even make the top ten. (Suicide is number 10, and that must include some suicides by firearms, but it also includes asphyxiation, hanging, and all other methods of suicide.) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm Look at automobile deaths in the United States. 2015 - 35,485. 2016 - 37,806. 2017 - 37,133. 2018 - 36,560. Compare that to the TOTAL number of gun-related deaths in 2017: 39,773 . Automobile deaths were higher (but not significantly higher) than firearms deaths, BUT ... the gun deaths statistic is all-inclusive. That includes accidental shootings, suicides, domestic shootings, armed robberies, gang shoot-outs, and police officer-involved shootings as well as "mass shootings." According to this site the United States sees 30 deaths every day due to drunk driving. That's 10,950 deaths ... and there's no constitutionally guaranteed right to drive drunk. The NHTSA puts the number at 10, 511 for 2018. Why aren't people who profess to be so keen on saving lives going after the low-hanging fruit of drunk drivers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 I just saying that the person you would be talking to IS just a person trying to do good in the world. Moving up the chain can indeed find you more nefarious individuals. I've got no doubt about that. And the nefariousness could simply be "I've found a cause to get behind that helps keep me in power". Those types of people are everywhere. at some point int he conversation I usually point out that it is literally impossible to remove all firearms from the country. and even if you could, people would still be killing each other. Greed, jealousy, envy, hatred are the roots of evil. the gun is just a tool they might use. oh, and my favorite stat is that 99.999999% of the guns in this country have never been involved in a mass or accidental shooting. (yes I know the number is off a bit but it's close) (edit: because math is apparently hard late at night) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derf Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Pete M said: I just saying that the person you would be talking to IS just a person trying to do good in the world. Moving up the chain can indeed find you more nefarious individuals. I've got no doubt about that. And the nefariousness could simply be "I've found a cause to get behind that helps keep me in power". Those types of people are everywhere. at some point in the conversation I usually point out that it is literally impossible to remove all firearms from the country. and even if you could, people would still be killing each other. Greed, jealousy, envy, hatred are the roots of evil. the gun is just a tool they might use. oh, and my favorite stat is that 0.99999999% of the guns in this country have never been involved in a mass or accidental shooting. (yes I know the number is off a bit but it's close) You probably meant to say 99.99999%. 0.99999999% would imply that 99.00000001% of guns were used in mass/accidental shootings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 10 minutes ago, derf said: You probably meant to say 99.99999%. 0.99999999% would imply that 99.00000001% of guns were used in mass/accidental shootings. Common Core -- it's the new math ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 16 minutes ago, derf said: You probably meant to say 99.99999%. 0.99999999% would imply that 99.00000001% of guns were used in mass/accidental shootings. Fake news. Based on alternate facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 yup. I changed the structure of the sentence and forgot to change the number too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rokinn Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 "The issue here is that, if you look at actual causes of death in the United States, gun deaths don't even make the top ten." Actually that's not the issue! By logical extension you could say, 'everyone dies'.... therefore nothing matters and anything goes! But let's use the auto accident deaths for comparison. First off, to drive a car you are required to obtain a drivers license to show proficiency as well knowing the laws for the rules of the road. If you drive without it your right to drive will be taken away for a period of time. You have to prove that you can see well enough to negotiate traffic and highways. Next, a car has to be registered as well as insured for liability in the event of an accident. If you are proven to be at fault in an accident you are liable for the damage (via your insurer if you are in compliance with the law}. Negligent homicide has even more onerous punishments, vehicular homicide yet more so. We don't just say, have at it if you can afford it. But none the less, accidents happen and people die. Laws have been instituted to try and bring down the number of deaths. Since seat belts were required in all cars, the number of lives saved is estimated to be about 300k. Air bags are now required and save lives also. I suppose you could say, drivers and cars are "well regulated." Supreme Court...DC v Heller Antonin Scalia for Majority opinion. 2008 III "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.... Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms." Underlining mine. Current law gives the right to put restrictions and controls on the sale and use of firearms. Enough said, I'm done with this conversation. I can find other things more productive to do like work on my MJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnj92131 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Pete, This has been a very gentile and polite discussion. I commend all participants for their own civil contribution to the discussion. If I understand correctly, we generally agree that "nuts" or "psychos" are a huge issue. So my next question is what can we do about them? What's wrong with universal background checks? No, it is not a 100% safety net. But it should catch a few, right? JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 30 minutes ago, rokinn said: "The issue here is that, if you look at actual causes of death in the United States, gun deaths don't even make the top ten." Actually that's not the issue! By logical extension you could say, 'everyone dies'.... therefore nothing matters and anything goes! But let's use the auto accident deaths for comparison. First off, to drive a car you are required to obtain a drivers license to show proficiency as well knowing the laws for the rules of the road. If you drive without it your right to drive will be taken away for a period of time. You have to prove that you can see well enough to negotiate traffic and highways. Next, a car has to be registered as well as insured for liability in the event of an accident. If you are proven to be at fault in an accident you are liable for the damage (via your insurer if you are in compliance with the law}. Negligent homicide has even more onerous punishments, vehicular homicide yet more so. We don't just say, have at it if you can afford it. But none the less, accidents happen and people die. Laws have been instituted to try and bring down the number of deaths. Since seat belts were required in all cars, the number of lives saved is estimated to be about 300k. Air bags are now required and save lives also. I suppose you could say, drivers and cars are "well regulated." Supreme Court...DC v Heller Antonin Scalia for Majority opinion. 2008 III "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.... Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms." Underlining mine. Current law gives the right to put restrictions and controls on the sale and use of firearms. Enough said, I'm done with this conversation. I can find other things more productive to do like work on my MJ. You understand that I can legally build a firearm? I have, 11 of them. You cannot control everyone. There is also language in the law and court opinions regarding what is in 'common use', The AK and AR are in common use. Collective Salvation. Study it, give it much consideration. One man, one god. Study it, give it much consideration. The Collective is antithetical to all of Creation, antithetical to (G)od, antithetical to the individual. The Collective is a means of enforcing Social Justice. Social Justice is a means of replacing the Creator (god). The 'common good' is a substitute term for Collective. Gun Control is sold to the masses of the Collective as a 'common good'. Those who seek to enforce the 'common good' of Gun Control believe that if they save the world/society they will then be Saved. These people are One World Utopians. I am an individual. The Creator breathed life into my nostrils. It is the Creator I answer to, not you, not this government. The Creator granted me my Rights. Among those Rights is the Right of self-preservation. You cannot Save me, you cannot protect me, you cannot take away that which the Creator has granted me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 minute ago, johnj92131 said: Pete, This has been a very gentile and polite discussion. I commend all participants for their own civil contribution to the discussion. If I understand correctly, we generally agree that "nuts" or "psychos" are a huge issue. So my next question is what can we do about them? What's wrong with universal background checks? No, it is not a 100% safety net. But it should catch a few, right? JJ Nature had a way of dealing with nuts and psychos. Politicians got in the way of Nature. Now you have people S---ing and fornicating in the streets. BTW, these people, the mentals, are being used against you and me, they are tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 has everyone said their fill? can I close this now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnj92131 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Jeep Driver said: Nature had a way of dealing with nuts and psychos. Politicians got in the way of Nature. Now you have people S---ing and fornicating in the streets. BTW, these people, the mentals, are being used against you and me, they are tools. Not sure you and I are on the same wavelength JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnj92131 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pete M said: has everyone said their fill? can I close this now? Please do close the thred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 I don't want to cut anyone off if there is some new point to bring up, but it would appear we're starting to go in circles so it's probably time to retire it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 23 minutes ago, johnj92131 said: Not sure you and I are on the same wavelength JJ No, we are not, and that is the point of my post. I post what I post to make you think about things not often thought of. Our society is intentionally being destroyed from within. In order to remake our society in their image it must first be destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pete M said: I don't want to cut anyone off if there is some new point to bring up, but it would appear we're starting to go in circles so it's probably time to retire it. Oh, we can go in many many directions.........no circles at all. I'm touching on that which makes you uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, johnj92131 said: Not sure you and I are on the same wavelength JJ This is an act of destruction........this destroys a society, it does not build one. https://www.dailywire.com/news/democrat-gov-gavin-newsom-doctors-should-be-able-to-prescribe-housing-like-medication Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 26 minutes ago, Jeep Driver said: I'm touching on that which makes you uncomfortable. nope. you're touching on things that go down paths that might make others uncomfortable and with which I don't want to deal with the consequences. the joys of being in charge. Personally speaking, there are very few things I find uncomfortable in discussions. Having said that, with my particular health issues I'm not always up to any topic at any time. The brain gets slooooowwwwww and forgetful when the fatigue sets in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 2 hours ago, johnj92131 said: If I understand correctly, we generally agree that "nuts" or "psychos" are a huge issue. So my next question is what can we do about them? What's wrong with universal background checks? No, it is not a 100% safety net. But it should catch a few, right? What's wrong with "universal" background checks is that they aren't universal. They only affect honest, law-abiding people who purchase firearms through legal channels. I don't know where you live. I live 75 miles from New York City. I'm between New Haven and Bridgeport, Connecticut. Both cities have serious ghetto areas where decent people shouldn't go during daylight hours, and can't go after dark. I know for a fact that guns are dealt on street corners in New Haven and Bridgeport, so it stands to reason they're being dealt on street corners in big cities like New York, Chicago, and [___]. It's illogical to impose more and more restrictions on honest people when the people you need to affect are immune from everything you do because, by definition, criminals don't abide by the laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Pete M said: nope. you're touching on things that go down paths that might make others uncomfortable and with which I don't want to deal with the consequences. the joys of being in charge. Personally speaking, there are very few things I find uncomfortable in discussions. Having said that, with my particular health issues I'm not always up to any topic at any time. The brain gets slooooowwwwww and forgetful when the fatigue sets in. The Bill of Rights, the Constitution, protects the Individual. Our inalienable rights, our natural rights, our God-given rights.....our Individual rights.......... The Statist, the gun-grabber, must minimize the Individual, must attack the Individual, must divide the Individual from the whole of society, must un-educate the individual, must destroy the very concept of Individualism, the concept of One Man-One God. And they have been very successful, so much so that the Individual is completely unaware that he is in deed, an Individual. That was my point. If it makes people uncomfortable, it should.........their 'comfort' is how we got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 That seems to be a good point to wrap up on. Thanks for being civil everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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