I can see why Jeep has drug their feet on a new truck . . .

[mvusse]

I get 23 mpg highway: stock powertrain XJ's match it?

 

if you got an early 2wd 4cyl KJ, you may have had a D35. But about 98% of KJ's got a 29-spline 8.25 rear. Can't say that for XJ's.

 

KJ's NEVER came with whitewall tires.... :rotf:

 

Did I mention the turning radius?

 

 

My 87 4.0/auto 4x4 Comanche got 24mpg highway when it was stock. An XJ with the same drive train, but weighing less should be able to match that. Both of my XJs are the 4.0HO, though, and I only get 22 with them. But 18mpg while towing a 2000 pound trailer pleasantly surprised me. I guess when you have the aerodynamics of a brick, hanging a wider taller brick behind it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

Quite a few 97 and newer XJs have a 29 spline 8.25. Some 96 as well, but older 96 and earlier 8.25 would have had 27 spline shafts.

 

87 through 89 (90?) could come with a D44.

 

Did Cherokees ever come with whitewall tires?

 

Googled for a few minutes, and it came up with a 17.9 foot turning radius for both a 99 Cherokee and an 03 Liberty. Exactly the same turning radius.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the KJ, and when the XJ finally disappeared it was definitely outdated. But the KJ is not the end all - be all of Jeep SUVs.

[Automan2164]

But the KJ is not the end all - be all of Jeep SUVs.

 

Nope, that already exists.

 

 

Rob L.

[Sir Sam]

My KJ came factory with a 241 t-case: what XJ ever came that way?

My 88, 89, 96, 99, 00, 00, 00 and 01 XJ's all came with the 242, in my opinion, a much better option.

 

I get 23 mpg highway: stock powertrain XJ's match it?

Yup, got 23mpg in my XJ just last week on the highway doing 80mph.

 

if you got an early 2wd 4cyl KJ, you may have had a D35. But about 98% of KJ's got a 29-spline 8.25 rear. Can't say that for XJ's.

 

Fair enough and no I can't, though in the XJ's defense the last one I had with the D35 was my 88 and 89, all the others had the 8.25.

 

The turning radius, stopping power, and handling are head and shoulders above the XJ. Did I mention the turning radius? And the handling?

 

I agree.

 

off road the KJ can go around things that will have the XJ backing up and trying again.

 

I completely disagree, stock for stock and modified and modified I believe the XJ is much more capable than the KJ.

 

the KJ chassis is much more rigid than the floppy and rust prone XJ.

I agree it is more rigid, and safer. I don't see anyway around that. Can't speak to the rust issue as nothing rusts around here.

 

You can actually get in and out of the rear and be comfortable while in there.

Yes it is easier to get in and out. However the rear seats also don't fold flat, and the rear has less cargo room than the XJ. If you need to haul anything besides people in the back the XJ is far better.

 

The KJ is harder & more expensive to mod, but that usually only occurs with the 2nd or third owner.

Ya probably, but chances are if you want to mod a new KJ your not thinking about modding an old XJ.

 

For $150 I can change all of my Liberty badges to factory Cherokee badges.

I am planning to when I repaint mine.

 

As far as its mission for the company...the KJ rocked.

I think the KJ was a success, and the production numbers speak to that. While I will never like the KJ as much as the newer XJ's the KJ does have a lot going for it.

 

I took a good look at a new KK last week, much more impressed with the interior and the rear cargo area. Would love to upgrade to one if it had a diesel.

[Incommando]

The thing is that i am NOT knocking the XJ, as it was revolutionary in '83. I have written numerous times in praise of the XJ. But I can't ignore that it was a design from about 1981 or so. Things changed so drastically from the 83 intro of the XJ to the 01 intro of the KJ.

 

KJ's also had the 242 available, so that is a wash. The 242 is not universally loved. And no one can claim that almost every XJ had a rear equal to the 29 spline 8.25. The XJ D44 was rare, and KJ's also had a very limited number of D44's. The D35 is pretty common under XJ's.

 

The worst ever KJ drivetrain is still better than a 2.8/pukegoat/D35.

 

cherokees weren't the only XJ, were they? An XJ Waggy had whitewalls iirc...The not so hot SR-a's from a KJ were better than anything that I recall the XJ having stock imho.

 

You are on numerous boards including KJ oriented ones, SS, and your not having read of and seen proof of XJ/MJ rust issues is surprising. I have never seen a condor because they are not around here, but I don't deny their existence because of that. Driver's floorboards alone are an issue, ignoring all of the others.

 

I can't dispute what people are claiming to get MPG wise in this thread, i can only point out that mid-20's is very different than what most claim and whine about here regularly. even if the XJ is about 25% lighter than a KJ. To be even, th e XJ would have to get about 28 mpg.

 

The KJ is not the be all/ end all. And neither was the XJ. The KJ is a fitting succesor to the XJ if you consider the target audience of the vehicles. Remember that jeep could not care less about what a later owner buying parts from someone other than jeep will eventually do to a vehicle as it does not make them a dime.

 

 

If I hated XJ's, I would not love my MJ.

[Sir Sam]

.................and your not having read of and seen proof of XJ/MJ rust issues is surprising. I have never seen a condor because they are not around here, but I don't deny their existence because of that. Driver's floorboards alone are an issue, ignoring all of the others.

 

I have seen lots of rust on XJ's in pictures. Those XJ's were 15-25 years old.

 

I have also seen KJ's with minor rust issue's that were 5 years old.

 

I am not in a heavily rust prone area to have the experience to compare what bad KJ rust looks like at 5 years to what bad XJ rust looks like at 20 years. The fact that the XJ's overall are older than the KJs means that its hard to subjectively compare rust with either.

[Incommando]

Good point.

 

 

Just be glad you are not in the rust belt where body and floor pan rust began shortly after their first winter.

 

My 6 yr old KJ has zero zilcj nada rust. Fingers crossed.

[dasbulliwagen]

 

The worst ever KJ drivetrain is still better than a 2.8/pukegoat/D35.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you meant it that way or not, but just for clarification, the 2.8 was never offered with the puegot transmission. All the 2.8's came with an AX5, but there are rumors of it being offered with another manual early on, but I can remember what it was, or an auto A904.

[terrawombat]

I would sure hope that any engine/transmission/rear end from 2002 and newer would be better than something offered in 1984-1986, if that's the comparison you want to make.

[Incommando]

I would sure hope that any engine/transmission/rear end from 2002 and newer would be better than something offered in 1984-1986, if that's the comparison you want to make.

 

Bingo! That is exactly my point!

 

Romanticism aside, the XJ was very dated when it was finally put out to pasture. Heck, it was obsolete by today's product cycles when the MJ was discontinued. The KJ is more advanced because it had to be more advanced. When introduced in 01 as an 02 model, it kicked the butt of its competition (CRv,RAV4,Escape,etc...) off road where a Jeep should excel.

 

It is like the fact that a V6 Accord from today will out run, out brake, and out handle a 72 SS chevelle from the factory: it is just more romantic to talk about what a bad a$$ the Chevelle was... Many of the great jeeps we remember fondly would not cut it today: they did not stop or turn at all and were not great at what we do in modern wheeling. I have owned, modified, and wheeled every thing from a '45 CJ2 to FSJ's to commandos to CJ5's: all were open front/rear when stock with most had very weak axles by today's standards. The 8.25 is light years ahead of the 10 or 19 spline two-piece axle D41/44 rears that jeep used in everything until '70 or so. And for years FSJ's used the tiny and very weak D27 front! Many jeeps used a D30 REAR that made the D35 look stout. But romanticised memory has them viewed through rose colored glasses that overlooks the the crappy 9" drum/drum brakes would not stop under the best of conditions, let alone when you have been in mud and the hideous Ross steering system. Find a vintage but stock 4wd Xj and a similarly equipped KJ: now use it strictly as a DD like almost all of the original owners did. Lay into a 35 mph entrance ramp at 45 and see which vehicle you want to be in. Heck, my lifted KJ on M/T's and the rear sway bar removed will outhandle my stock MJ with all-season tires and new gas shocks. Does it make the XJ a bad vehicle? No, it just makes it something designed for the market as it existed 30 years ago, when a z28 had 140 hp. The XJ excelled then. But in today's market it would not sell at all and would not even be legal for sale. Unless it was so cheap that weirdo jeep nuts like me could buy one new and go mod the crap out if it no one doing back-to-back test drives in one and a modern SUV would buy the XJ. The good old days are like they have always been: probably not nearly as good as we remember them being.

[Pete M]

my 83 Z-28 has 190. :D

 

the seats in a KJ SUCK. and whose idea was it to put the window switches in the center console?!

 

 

 

 

I just figured since we were all going to argue over semantics/details and nitpick each others' post ad-nauseum, I'd throw my hat into the ring. :dunno:

[87Warrior]

Hey Pete, the Miata has the power window switches in the center console :rotfl2:

[Sir Sam]

Hey Pete, the Miata has the power window switches in the center console :rotfl2:

 

And so did all my mercedes. But for some reason while I am fine with it being there in the mercedes, in the KJ it drives me nuts. Very unnatural feeling place for it.

 

Plus with the door lock switch right up where the window switches should be I keep hitting the door locks when I want to rolldown the windows.

[jpnjim]

To explain my original statement:

 

The Liberty may, or may not be a fine vehicle,

but it's introduction at the demise of the XJ set it up as an XJ replacement in the minds of many.

 

As an XJ replacement, in my opinion,

it failed.

 

 

 

The XJ was a true Sport Utility Vehicle.

 

Even though it was the fastest SUV for a while, it wasn't built to be the fastest, or biggest, baddest, cutest, most lovable, most luxurious, or most stylish (even when new).

 

It was built to be a lean, plain vanilla: people mover, parts fetcher, snow pusher, from cab, to cop car, to mall security car (EVERY mall around here had an XJ, with a plow on it for everything from shuttle service, to jump starts, cleaning snow away from the entrance to chasing kids out of the parking lot after hours).

 

Not to just pick on the Libby,

but there isn't ANYTHING that I've seen that comes close to being an XJ replacement.

 

If you could put a snow plow on a Marathon Cab, 1980's Toyota Corola, or a 1967 Rambler American, you'd be close.

 

Basic transportation that will carry 4, or 5 people every day, stand up to neglect for a couple hundred thousand miles,

and not complain when your daughter jumps the curb learning to drive, or your son gets in races with it home from school.

 

There's a reason XJ's were on the most stolen lost for so long,

blending in with all the other SUV's, while being quick enough to run from the cops, and able to withstand jumping curbs & islands made them perfect getaway vehicles for crooks.

 

Durable, plain jane, and tough.

 

A scratched Porsche is an abomination, but a dent on the boxy XJ blends in, and adds character.

 

I used to smile when I saw all the 'working' XJ's everywhere.

 

I can tell you I don't see many 'working' KJ's.

The 'private security company' around here had one,

but they had a fleet of XJ's when they were still available.

 

Those little Ford Escape's seem to be the 'mall car' of choice now, tho they aren't as durable, and can't clear snow.

 

Xterra's kind of inherited the XJ's 'function over form' perception, but I don't see many of those doing the utilitarian jobs XJ's excelled at.

 

So, KJ owners may love their Libby's,

but nothing, Libby included, ever really 'replaced' the XJ,

there just stopped being a single vehicle that filled that 'do it all' niche.

[aabmike]

:agree: :cheers: :clapping:

Very well said, I totally agree!!

[AMC-MJ]

:D I ain't gotta worry about the new jeeps Cryco started rolling as they discontinued the AMC Models, Note the Wrangler is the only one of AMC's models of Jeep still around . . . But that's ok i won't be having another Vehicle note :yes:

 

I been driving 1950-70's Vehicles for years n years i updated once apon a time and it bit in the tail feathers won't happen again no more new/New used only the old n obsolete for me :thumbsup:

 

Mike

[boardmanMJ]

throwing in my 2 cents... every side has had very great points to the arguments. me personally, if i had my choice, id pick an outdated XJ over a new KJ any day. I fit into the rugged do it all class as stated above but i also stand in the 2% of the population that would pick the outdated XJ. here in the good ole rust belt i have seen rust on the KJs but not so much on the rockers, more on the wheel wells like full size fords. also i have done so minor work on KJs before and it is all a PITA! i do side work at a mechanic shop that specializes in jeeps and i have seen countless KJs come in and out for very similar things; motor troubles. now i could be wrong about the 3.7 because i don't like dealing with the newer jeeps so i stay away from them. beside the KJs the next newest jeep to be pulled into the shop was a 98 TJ with literally no frame left and a 2001 4banger TJ.

 

final thoughts, I'm not liking the dana 30a or the ifs the KJ has because i like the simplicity and strength of a solid axle with a steel center section.

 

i do like the rear disc brakes and the coil springs of the KJ plus they had the renegade package that really made a styling difference. i also think the KJ came with a diesel in the US which, even though the XJ HAD one, is nice for the MPGs in the current economy. I also like that the 8.25 was offered in most KJs.

 

 

 

Josh