Next mars rover:

[Sir Sam]

Dad sent me this pic today from work today, its the next mars rover in the clean room at JPL.

 

They also have various rock and obstacle courses setup for it, kinda like a minioffroad park for kids powerwheels jeeps.

 

 

 

 

I'm guessing it does not have the nuclear battery installed at this point. This is probably also a test mule, not the actual unit going to be sent.

[wyk]

If only they weren't wasting our tax dollars on all that nonsense. It's basically socialism for the aerospace industry.

[87Warrior]

I half expected to see the 2011 Grand Cherokee pictured with some gadgets attached to it.

[Geonovast]

They did launch a libby into space in one of their commercials a few years ago...

[Sir Sam]

If only they weren't wasting our tax dollars on all that nonsense. It's basically socialism for the aerospace industry.

 

By that logic NASA wastes peanuts compared to what the US socialized industrial military complex wastes. Yet if you were to say that the DOD's budget was one big waste of socialized tax dollars you might find yourself quickly hanging from a noose.

 

NASA's budget is about 3% of what the DOD's budget is.

 

DOE's budget is about $60 billion a year, other institutions like the NSA and NRO.....your guess is as good as mine.

 

 

However, for the peanuts we spend on NASA we reap all sorts of economic benefits, same goes for military R&D. It was massive government spending during WWII that spurred all sorts of new inventions, not just a new gadget, but chemical and metallurgical engineering, the birth of the polymer industry, the nuclear age, etc. Now it was private business that pushed forward with those things, but for so much of it the catalyst came from government funding research.

 

A classic example(though not related to research), is the interstate highway system. Eisenhower sold it saying it was for defense, but look at how indispensable it is to our current economic structure. China even went as far as to copy our system nearly verbatim with the exception of slightly wider lanes(to accommodate shipping traffic better).

 

The DOD spent metric-$#!& tons of money on the GPS system, but look how important the GPS system is world-wide?

 

Ever watch star trek? Did you know that all of the windows on the ships are supposed to be made of "transparent aluminum"? Guess what? Nasa invented that, the transparent aluminum is now used in the HMMWV armored windows.(polycrystalline alumina that is). Infared thermometers that have been used for abotu 20 years now were developed by NASA, kodiak film, ya, that 35mm film you used for decades untill you got that shiney new digital camera, was developed by NASA for use on the moon. Regular film wasn't good enough, so NASA worked with kodiak to develop a film suitable for use in outer space. The film turned out to be so good that kodiak pushed for its use in all consumer camera's.

 

There are something like 6500 patents registered by NASA, if you cannot see the intrinsic value in that then let me leave you with one last argument.

 

China and Japan turn out 60 engineers to every 1 of ours.

 

Japan has 130 million people

China has 1.3 billion

 

The US has about 310 million(we will wait for the new census results to be sure).

 

We as a nation cannot hope to maintain our technological edge and risk sliding into third world status without the research programs that go on with NASA, DOD, and DOE.

 

You may call it a waste, I call it investing in America's technological future. I know I sure don't want to compete with a chinese guy getting paid 39 cents an hour to assemble iPhones.

[jimoshel]

Probably the most fascinating part of my life was when I was working for LASL, Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, Los Alamos New Mexico, And the PSL Physical Science Laboratory at New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM. Was involved in developing the first NavSat launched, the fore runner of the GPS system. The millions we spent on R&D is what enabled the $59 GPS that you buy at WalMart now. Other millions we spent developing 'super adhesives' enabling suterless surgery, heat resistant tiles on space vehicles,and the ability to coat the bottom of your buddys coffee cup so when the heat activated the epoxy the cup was permantly attached to what ever surface it was sat down on. Don't know how many work benches and desk tops got replaced when they got so covered with coffee cups they were no longer useable. Yes, there is millions wasted but the good that comes out of these programs far out weighs the bad. My .02 cents worth.

[Automan2164]

Probably the most fascinating part of my life was when I was working for LASL, Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, Los Alamos New Mexico, And the PSL Physical Science Laboratory at New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM. Was involved in developing the first NavSat launched, the fore runner of the GPS system. The millions we spent on R&D is what enabled the $59 GPS that you buy at WalMart now. Other millions we spent developing 'super adhesives' enabling suterless surgery, heat resistant tiles on space vehicles,and the ability to coat the bottom of your buddys coffee cup so when the heat activated the epoxy the cup was permantly attached to what ever surface it was sat down on. Don't know how many work benches and desk tops got replaced when they got so covered with coffee cups they were no longer useable. Yes, there is millions wasted but the good that comes out of these programs far out weighs the bad. My .02 cents worth.

 

Jim, you never fail to amaze me. Your a been there, done that, bought the shirt, and then taught the class kind of guy. Is there anything you haven't done? If I could do 1/8th of the stuff you've talked about I would be a happy man.

 

:bowdown:

 

Cheers to you brother. :cheers:

Rob L.

[dfreeman616]

sam and jim... i couldn't say it better by any means.

 

and i wouldn't mind having that snap-on box and it's contents...among quite a few other things in that room.

[Sir Sam]

Probably the most fascinating part of my life was when I was working for LASL, Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, Los Alamos New Mexico, And the PSL Physical Science Laboratory at New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM. Was involved in developing the first NavSat launched, the fore runner of the GPS system. The millions we spent on R&D is what enabled the $59 GPS that you buy at WalMart now. Other millions we spent developing 'super adhesives' enabling suterless surgery, heat resistant tiles on space vehicles,and the ability to coat the bottom of your buddys coffee cup so when the heat activated the epoxy the cup was permantly attached to what ever surface it was sat down on. Don't know how many work benches and desk tops got replaced when they got so covered with coffee cups they were no longer useable. Yes, there is millions wasted but the good that comes out of these programs far out weighs the bad. My .02 cents worth.

 

Los Alamos huh? I lived there back in the early 90's my father worked for DOE there in town.

 

 

Man talk about a weird little place, that town was the oddest microcosm of $200k+ incomes, let alone if you had dual incomes......

 

You ever make it up to Jemez springs? There was a little resturant there that had the best prime rib and chicken fried steak.....(los ojos maybe?)

 

Lots of cross country skiing in that area, plus all the indian artifacts all over. I remember playing at the playground of the middle school and then just finding all sorts of pottery shards. Got a few arrowheads still, including a nice obsidian one. Plus a big cup full of different shards.

[jeepdoggydogB]

If only they weren't wasting our tax dollars on all that nonsense. It's basically socialism for the aerospace industry.

 

By that logic NASA wastes peanuts compared to what the US socialized industrial military complex wastes. Yet if you were to say that the DOD's budget was one big waste of socialized tax dollars you might find yourself quickly hanging from a noose.

 

NASA's budget is about 3% of what the DOD's budget is.

 

DOE's budget is about $60 billion a year, other institutions like the NSA and NRO.....your guess is as good as mine.

 

 

However, for the peanuts we spend on NASA we reap all sorts of economic benefits, same goes for military R&D. It was massive government spending during WWII that spurred all sorts of new inventions, not just a new gadget, but chemical and metallurgical engineering, the birth of the polymer industry, the nuclear age, etc. Now it was private business that pushed forward with those things, but for so much of it the catalyst came from government funding research.

 

A classic example(though not related to research), is the interstate highway system. Eisenhower sold it saying it was for defense, but look at how indispensable it is to our current economic structure. China even went as far as to copy our system nearly verbatim with the exception of slightly wider lanes(to accommodate shipping traffic better).

 

The DOD spent metric-$#!& tons of money on the GPS system, but look how important the GPS system is world-wide?

 

Ever watch star trek? Did you know that all of the windows on the ships are supposed to be made of "transparent aluminum"? Guess what? Nasa invented that, the transparent aluminum is now used in the HMMWV armored windows.(polycrystalline alumina that is). Infared thermometers that have been used for abotu 20 years now were developed by NASA, kodiak film, ya, that 35mm film you used for decades untill you got that shiney new digital camera, was developed by NASA for use on the moon. Regular film wasn't good enough, so NASA worked with kodiak to develop a film suitable for use in outer space. The film turned out to be so good that kodiak pushed for its use in all consumer camera's.

 

There are something like 6500 patents registered by NASA, if you cannot see the intrinsic value in that then let me leave you with one last argument.

 

China and Japan turn out 60 engineers to every 1 of ours.

 

Japan has 130 million people

China has 1.3 billion

 

The US has about 310 million(we will wait for the new census results to be sure).

 

We as a nation cannot hope to maintain our technological edge and risk sliding into third world status without the research programs that go on with NASA, DOD, and DOE.

 

You may call it a waste, I call it investing in America's technological future. I know I sure don't want to compete with a chinese guy getting paid 39 cents an hour to assemble iPhones.

I agree with you mostly, except your implications around why China and Japan produce more engineers than the U.S. It is simply supply and demand, there is more demand for engineers in for example China and India. I have provided a link to American Society of Mechanical Engineers article that might give you insight from an engineers perspective. If you are wondering why I am so tuned into this is that I am a Graduate of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo School of Engineering, and have many a colleague that had were educated as Engeneers and have since changed their fields because there was not a demand for their services. You and I both agree that the Federal Government is the cornerstone of U.S. reasearch and development, but many private corporations chose to utilize the great work of NASA and the Military in R&D and develop offshore because it is more profitable.

 

http://memagazine.asme.org/articles/200 ... horing.cfm

[jpnjim]

They did launch a libby into space in one of their commercials a few years ago...

 

They should've launched them all. :yes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

;)

[Sir Sam]

I agree with you mostly, except your implications around why China and Japan produce more engineers than the U.S. It is simply supply and demand, there is more demand for engineers in for example China and India. I have provided a link to American Society of Mechanical Engineers article that might give you insight from an engineers perspective. If you are wondering why I am so tuned into this is that I am a Graduate of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo School of Engineering, and have many a colleague that had were educated as Engeneers and have since changed their fields because there was not a demand for their services. You and I both agree that the Federal Government is the cornerstone of U.S. reasearch and development, but many private corporations chose to utilize the great work of NASA and the Military in R&D and develop offshore because it is more profitable.

 

http://memagazine.asme.org/articles/200 ... horing.cfm

 

ME here, what's your discipline?

[jeepdoggydogB]

I agree with you mostly, except your implications around why China and Japan produce more engineers than the U.S. It is simply supply and demand, there is more demand for engineers in for example China and India. I have provided a link to American Society of Mechanical Engineers article that might give you insight from an engineers perspective. If you are wondering why I am so tuned into this is that I am a Graduate of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo School of Engineering, and have many a colleague that had were educated as Engeneers and have since changed their fields because there was not a demand for their services. You and I both agree that the Federal Government is the cornerstone of U.S. reasearch and development, but many private corporations chose to utilize the great work of NASA and the Military in R&D and develop offshore because it is more profitable.

 

http://memagazine.asme.org/articles/200 ... horing.cfm

 

ME here, what's your discipline?

CE here Currently Director of Technology at a large K-12, loved ME as well. My first cousin and I used to work on cars, we built up a Datsun 510, and he did a frame up restoration a a 57 Chevy before we went to College. At one point we both were wanting to go on the ME track, me at Cal Poly and he at Cal Berkeley, but you know how young folks want to be different. He currently works at Toyota Corporation in the Warranty Division. :cheers:

[wyk]

And you hadn't even touched on the amount wasted on the fact we have about 90,000 personell in administration and military in Europe alone. The reason socialism works so well in Europe(well, semi-socialism) is due to the fact we cover most of their military presence. As you pointed out, we spend a ridiculous amount of GDP on military. This is mostly to protect assets for corporations and investors - and very little of it helps your average tax payer - not unlike NASA. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

There is no future in America. Everything will eventually be manufactured overseas. Make a call to tech support sometime. I was speaking to an Eastern Indian last time I was on the phone with ATT. Again, whatever comes from NASA helps corporations(usually aerospace and military IE - the people that hold those patents you spoke of) and Engineers, not the tax payers that funded it. The patents are worthless to your average tax payer. We have no technological edge - china has access to our tech via spies and the fact we hire their engineers to save money at home(both on the fact our engineers earn more and cost more to educate) and Europe has access as well. Again, similarly to the arrangement we have with our military protecting Europe, we also feed them our technology without their having to invest in it as we do.

 

Add to this the fact that our rich pay far less taxes then European rich, and we can not hope to have a system as beneficial to the average tax payers as theirs. Grab google and look at the 'quality of life' reports. We usually fall into second digits behind most of Europe. There is a reason for that.

 

So, yes. NASA is a waste if you are not directly associated with the industry, and our military complex is also a waste of tax payer funds if you are not tied to the military or oil, or other resources that make the corporations wealthy.

 

In the end, the Americam middle class dollar has stagnated - we make LESS than we made 30 years ago. And Europe's buying power has increased significantly - to the point they are now investing in the US because we work our workers harder and pay them less due to stagnating US wages. The top .05% in the US now have something like 100X the amount of this country's wealth they had 30 years ago as well. Say good bye to the US middle class. Thank you NASA, the military, China, and the US GOV for selling the middle class out.

 

Again - socialism for aerospace...

 

http://www.mercer.com/qualityoflivingpr#City_Ranking_Tables You don't see the US until #31.

In International Living the US Ranks 7th - which is the highest I have seen it there.

 

Having lived abroad I can say it's not looking good for America. I hope we get back on the right track, but such a thing seems doubtful.

 

WYK

 

 

If only they weren't wasting our tax dollars on all that nonsense. It's basically socialism for the aerospace industry.

 

By that logic NASA wastes peanuts compared to what the US socialized industrial military complex wastes. Yet if you were to say that the DOD's budget was one big waste of socialized tax dollars you might find yourself quickly hanging from a noose.

 

NASA's budget is about 3% of what the DOD's budget is.

 

DOE's budget is about $60 billion a year, other institutions like the NSA and NRO.....your guess is as good as mine.

 

 

However, for the peanuts we spend on NASA we reap all sorts of economic benefits, same goes for military R&D. It was massive government spending during WWII that spurred all sorts of new inventions, not just a new gadget, but chemical and metallurgical engineering, the birth of the polymer industry, the nuclear age, etc. Now it was private business that pushed forward with those things, but for so much of it the catalyst came from government funding research.

 

A classic example(though not related to research), is the interstate highway system. Eisenhower sold it saying it was for defense, but look at how indispensable it is to our current economic structure. China even went as far as to copy our system nearly verbatim with the exception of slightly wider lanes(to accommodate shipping traffic better).

 

The DOD spent metric-$#!& tons of money on the GPS system, but look how important the GPS system is world-wide?

 

Ever watch star trek? Did you know that all of the windows on the ships are supposed to be made of "transparent aluminum"? Guess what? Nasa invented that, the transparent aluminum is now used in the HMMWV armored windows.(polycrystalline alumina that is). Infared thermometers that have been used for abotu 20 years now were developed by NASA, kodiak film, ya, that 35mm film you used for decades untill you got that shiney new digital camera, was developed by NASA for use on the moon. Regular film wasn't good enough, so NASA worked with kodiak to develop a film suitable for use in outer space. The film turned out to be so good that kodiak pushed for its use in all consumer camera's.

 

There are something like 6500 patents registered by NASA, if you cannot see the intrinsic value in that then let me leave you with one last argument.

 

China and Japan turn out 60 engineers to every 1 of ours.

 

Japan has 130 million people

China has 1.3 billion

 

The US has about 310 million(we will wait for the new census results to be sure).

 

We as a nation cannot hope to maintain our technological edge and risk sliding into third world status without the research programs that go on with NASA, DOD, and DOE.

 

You may call it a waste, I call it investing in America's technological future. I know I sure don't want to compete with a chinese guy getting paid 39 cents an hour to assemble iPhones.

[jeepdoggydogB]

And you hadn't even touched on the amount wasted on the fact we have about 90,000 personell in administration and military in Europe alone. The reason socialism works so well in Europe(well, semi-socialism) is due to the fact we cover most of their military presence. As you pointed out, we spend a ridiculous amount of GDP on military. This is mostly to protect assets for corporations and investors - and very little of it helps your average tax payer - not unlike NASA. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

There is no future in America. Everything will eventually be manufactured overseas. Make a call to tech support sometime. I was speaking to an Eastern Indian last time I was on the phone with ATT. Again, whatever comes from NASA helps corporations(usually aerospace and military IE - the people that hold those patents you spoke of) and Engineers, not the tax payers that funded it. The patents are worthless to your average tax payer. We have no technological edge - china has access to our tech via spies and the fact we hire their engineers to save money at home(both on the fact our engineers earn more and cost more to educate) and Europe has access as well. Again, similarly to the arrangement we have with our military protecting Europe, we also feed them our technology without their having to invest in it as we do.

 

Add to this the fact that our rich pay far less taxes then European rich, and we can not hope to have a system as beneficial to the average tax payers as theirs. Grab google and look at the 'quality of life' reports. We usually fall into second digits behind most of Europe. There is a reason for that.

 

So, yes. NASA is a waste if you are not directly associated with the industry, and our military complex is also a waste of tax payer funds if you are not tied to the military or oil, or other resources that make the corporations wealthy.

 

In the end, the Americam middle class dollar has stagnated - we make LESS than we made 30 years ago. And Europe's buying power has increased significantly - to the point they are now investing in the US because we work our workers harder and pay them less due to stagnating US wages. The top .05% in the US now have something like 100X the amount of this country's wealth they had 30 years ago as well. Say good bye to the US middle class. Thank you NASA, the military, China, and the US GOV for selling the middle class out.

 

Again - socialism for aerospace...

 

http://www.mercer.com/qualityoflivingpr#City_Ranking_Tables You don't see the US until #31.

In International Living the US Ranks 7th - which is the highest I have seen it there.

 

Having lived abroad I can say it's not looking good for America. I hope we get back on the right track, but such a thing seems doubtful.

 

WYK

 

 

If only they weren't wasting our tax dollars on all that nonsense. It's basically socialism for the aerospace industry.

 

By that logic NASA wastes peanuts compared to what the US socialized industrial military complex wastes. Yet if you were to say that the DOD's budget was one big waste of socialized tax dollars you might find yourself quickly hanging from a noose.

 

NASA's budget is about 3% of what the DOD's budget is.

 

DOE's budget is about $60 billion a year, other institutions like the NSA and NRO.....your guess is as good as mine.

 

 

However, for the peanuts we spend on NASA we reap all sorts of economic benefits, same goes for military R&D. It was massive government spending during WWII that spurred all sorts of new inventions, not just a new gadget, but chemical and metallurgical engineering, the birth of the polymer industry, the nuclear age, etc. Now it was private business that pushed forward with those things, but for so much of it the catalyst came from government funding research.

 

A classic example(though not related to research), is the interstate highway system. Eisenhower sold it saying it was for defense, but look at how indispensable it is to our current economic structure. China even went as far as to copy our system nearly verbatim with the exception of slightly wider lanes(to accommodate shipping traffic better).

 

The DOD spent metric-$#!& tons of money on the GPS system, but look how important the GPS system is world-wide?

 

Ever watch star trek? Did you know that all of the windows on the ships are supposed to be made of "transparent aluminum"? Guess what? Nasa invented that, the transparent aluminum is now used in the HMMWV armored windows.(polycrystalline alumina that is). Infared thermometers that have been used for abotu 20 years now were developed by NASA, kodiak film, ya, that 35mm film you used for decades untill you got that shiney new digital camera, was developed by NASA for use on the moon. Regular film wasn't good enough, so NASA worked with kodiak to develop a film suitable for use in outer space. The film turned out to be so good that kodiak pushed for its use in all consumer camera's.

 

There are something like 6500 patents registered by NASA, if you cannot see the intrinsic value in that then let me leave you with one last argument.

 

China and Japan turn out 60 engineers to every 1 of ours.

 

Japan has 130 million people

China has 1.3 billion

 

The US has about 310 million(we will wait for the new census results to be sure).

 

We as a nation cannot hope to maintain our technological edge and risk sliding into third world status without the research programs that go on with NASA, DOD, and DOE.

 

You may call it a waste, I call it investing in America's technological future. I know I sure don't want to compete with a chinese guy getting paid 39 cents an hour to assemble iPhones.

I think what is being said is that what you call socialist is our Country's best chance at being the most innovative and creative in the next century. Our Military has been overwhelmingly successful in making sure the "dollar" is a global standard. Thank them (our men and women in the military) please because I cannot imagine what this world would be like having the euro, yen, rupi, or peso as the global standard of economic measurement. Also make sure you thank our former President Nixon for seeing this and getting us off of "gold" as a global currency, and making it the dollar. Although many of our private corporations have followed the venue of profit (nothing wrong with that) our Military, and NASA have provided us with the very medium we are expressing ourselves with now (Al Gore did not invent the internet, our Military, Higher Education, and NASA did). One day like Willy's, Kaiser, AMC and our manufacturing companies of old we will see a resurgence of American companies when they see profit in reenvesting in America. From my perspective I am already seeing that the cost of top engineers in China are $150,000 U.S. (I have friends in the engineering business in China, and they are outsourcing engineering services to Vietnam) Everything is a cycle and one day the sleeping giant known as the American economy will wake from its slumber.

[knever3]

They did launch a libby into space in one of their commercials a few years ago...

 

 

 

I wish they'd launch the Compass and Patriot into space... Permanently!!!!

 

So on that topic, how 'bout this as a Mars rover?

[Sir Sam]

They did launch a libby into space in one of their commercials a few years ago...

 

 

 

I wish they'd launch the Compass and Patriot into space... Permanently!!!!

 

So on that topic, how 'bout this as a Mars rover?

 

British made, even worse.

[kastein]

So wait, you want to send that British made vehicle to Mars?

 

The martians are gonna be pissed when it causes an oil spill, or oil leak, depending on how bad the seals on that particular one are.

 

As for the whole aerospace socialism debate... NASA's budget is what, 17 billion a year? And we've gotten so much good science and info out of it?

 

Kill Social Security and Medicare before they bankrupt us. Then worry about the small crap like NASA. Bang for buck, go for the big stuff first.

 

"The war on poverty sure has worked, we have gotten a lot of poverty for our money"

[Sir Sam]

So wait, you want to send that British made vehicle to Mars?

 

The martians are gonna be pissed when it causes an oil spill, or oil leak, depending on how bad the seals on that particular one are.

 

As for the whole aerospace socialism debate... NASA's budget is what, 17 billion a year? And we've gotten so much good science and info out of it?

 

Kill Social Security and Medicare before they bankrupt us. Then worry about the small crap like NASA. Bang for buck, go for the big stuff first.

 

"The war on poverty sure has worked, we have gotten a lot of poverty for our money"

 

Agreed. Like I said above, NASA's budget is about 17 billion, or 3% of the DOD's annual budget. It's pennies compared to what we spend elsewhere.

[DJM/78]

The day we get rid of NASA is the day we become a third world country , almost every piece of technology we have today is thanks to some NASA involvement .

Computers , cell phones , GPS , Laser welders . not to mention all the cool materials they've come up with in last 50 years , like making ceramics and titanium a household product . Now lets talk economy , all that money is going to pay American people to build , R&D and overall production of these products . The military and NASA use and fund

Private contractors that intern pay our asses to build a 100K dollar HHMMVV . So what's the b*@$£ ? I don't see any of our asses wanting to pony up the change for R&D .

 

Simply put we are a bunch of cheep asses . Most of us don't make what a scientist at NASA makes , so we see the spending as gross waste of money . However we sure want our

cheap GPS navigation device for our used Jeeps ! This is still the land of opportunity no matter how much spending Obama is throwing out , bailing out big insurance and bank's.

 

I started my own company three years ago . Since then I've been able bust out over a 100k a year making my own products and selling them , right here in the USA !

We still have something these third world countries don't have , its called infrastructure . They can blow up buildings , we'll just build another one , they can get all the technology , until we outsource it to another country . China is sitting pretty right now , but wait until we pull the rug out from under them . You've seen what happened when we started doing business with their enemy .

 

I love my country , I think I'll stay right here and watch the euro dollar drop and drop , like it has been doing .

[jimoshel]

:cheers: :USAflag: Capitalistic Radical. :USAflag: :cheers: