Cold weather effects on starting

[89 MJ]

If you could, maybe try to grab a video of it when you’re starting it tomorrow. 

[NC Tom]

12 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

If you could, maybe try to grab a video of it when you’re starting it tomorrow. 

Sure. 47 degrees and damp this morning and no start. This is nuts! 

 

My son will be "voluntold" for battery testing and video.

[75sv1]

Also, check if there is a parasitic draw on the battery. A voltmeter between the negative cable and the negative post. 

[89 MJ]

4 hours ago, NC Tom said:

Sure. 47 degrees and damp this morning and no start. This is nuts! 

 

My son will be "voluntold" for battery testing and video.

It seems odd to me that it started on the second try when it was 53 degrees, but no start at all at 47 degrees. I think the video and battery testing will help a lot. 

[75sv1]

5 hours ago, NC Tom said:

Sure. 47 degrees and damp this morning and no start. This is nuts! 

 

My son will be "voluntold" for battery testing and video.

Sure it doesn't have any British parts in it? Oh, I guess the old Jags worked well when it was raining.  

[NC Tom]

6 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

It seems odd to me that it started on the second try when it was 53 degrees, but no start at all at 47 degrees. I think the video and battery testing will help a lot. 

 

Got home late, it's dark and raining and I'm a wuss. Test and video later.

[NC Tom]

5 hours ago, 75sv1 said:

Sure it doesn't have any British parts in it? Oh, I guess the old Jags worked well when it was raining.  

 Not sure, but it does have an electrical system "designed" by the French. They can't do anything right.

[eaglescout526]

29 minutes ago, NC Tom said:

They can't do anything right.

No they can do some great designing and engineering. They just can’t win wars haha. 

[gogmorgo]

Not to like, warm climate shame anyone or anything, but I’ll just throw it out there that it’s supposed to hit -27°F tonight here. And this really doesn’t sound cold-related to me. Cold weather problems usually just act like dead batteries or plugged fuel lines. 

If cold means humidity, that opens up other possibilities. Water under the distributor cap could interfere with it, extra humidity could cause problems for spark plug wires with deteriorating insulation. It could screw with the ecu. If the insulation on the starter windings is failing it could short them out, cause it to crank slow or not at all, and draw a ton of current and drop battery voltage low enough to screw with fuel pump or the ecu. Any electrical windings, like an alternator or relay could be more prone to shorting. 
 

Do we know what’s missing when it won’t start? Spark, fuel? Do we know what battery voltage is at while it’s cranking? If you let it crank slow for 15 seconds does anything (starter, battery cables) get really hot? Does it change anything if you jump power direct to the starter trigger instead of going through the key switch? Try boosting off another vehicle, or using booster cables to parallel your battery cables?

Renix has a starter/ignition relay that handles power for everything, yes? Have we tried bypassing that?
 

I don’t know if we can discount the stumbly idle yet after correcting the fuel rail leaks. If it’s not the fuel leak causing that, unfortunately it would likely be a second problem over the starter cranking slow.

[89 MJ]

16 minutes ago, gogmorgo said:

I’ll just throw it out there that it’s supposed to hit -27°F tonight here. And this really doesn’t sound cold-related to me. Cold weather problems usually just act like dead batteries or plugged fuel lines. 

If cold means humidity, that opens up other possibilities.

This is what I was getting at earlier with my comments about the temperature. Also why I asked for the video. He said it’s cranking slowly (might’ve been in the other thread though), making it seem like a battery/battery cable/starter issue. 
 

I agree that this issue doesn’t sound like a cold issue anymore though. My Eagle has a 590CCA battery and it would start the same at -10F and 70F. It sounds a lot more like an ignition issue if the issue is worse with higher humidity. 

[NC Tom]

On 12/10/2024 at 7:55 PM, 89 MJ said:

I agree that this issue doesn’t sound like a cold issue anymore though. My Eagle has a 590CCA battery and it would start the same at -10F and 70F. It sounds a lot more like an ignition issue if the issue is worse with higher humidity. 

 

Ok. Because I said I would test it, while cranking, readings were 10.3 to 10.5. No lower then 10 after four attempts.

[gogmorgo]

That’s pretty low, like it-may-be-a-problem-low, but shouldn’t be not-starting-low. But coupled with some extra resistance though the cables or a connection that could add up to a problem.

Have you tried boosting it off another vehicle to see if it changes anything?

[TurboedMJ]

You could try checking the voltage at the starter and compare it to the voltage at the battery...

[NC Tom]

Okay. Here's the latest update:

 

Changed the oil with Rotella T4 10/30 and a Wix filter

Battery Cables in good shape. At the battery, Neg was good. Pos. was loose and rusty. Cleaned both and tightened it all down.

Cleaned and polished the Pos. connection to the firewall.

Neg. to block was loose at the stud going into the block. I could not get the connections apart, so I just re-tightened the stud. The nut on the stud seemed to be seized. I was not able to get my hands and a wrench in that tight space to break it. Any suggestions?

Re-cleaned the C101. I also have an oil pan heater that I turned on.

 

Again, crank no start. Had my son come out and turn it over while I made a video and, of course, it starts. WTF? Drove it around a bit, no issues.

 

I guess I'm back to "try again tomorrow and see what happens." I am leaving the oil heater on overnight this time.

[89 MJ]

4 minutes ago, NC Tom said:

Cleaned and polished the Pos. connection to the firewall.

Neg. to block was loose at the stud going into the block. I could not get the connections apart, so I just re-tightened the stud. The nut on the stud seemed to be seized. I was not able to get my hands and a wrench in that tight space to break it. Any suggestions?

Penetrating oil and/or heat. 
 

Did the engine turn over any quicker?

Shouldn’t the positive cable go directly to the starter solenoid, not the firewall?

is the chassis to engine ground at the back of the intake cleaned?

Did you try boosting it with another vehicle or a jump pack?

How cold did it get? I really don’t think that you need the heater. 
How did you determine that the battery cables were in good shape? 
Have you taken it to a parts store to get the battery and starter tested?

[NC Tom]

5 minutes ago, 89 MJ said:

Penetrating oil and/or heat. 
 

Did the engine turn over any quicker?

Shouldn’t the positive cable go directly to the starter solenoid, not the firewall?

is the chassis to engine ground at the back of the intake cleaned?

Did you try boosting it with another vehicle or a jump pack?

How cold did it get? I really don’t think that you need the heater. 
How did you determine that the battery cables were in good shape? 
Have you taken it to a parts store to get the battery and starter tested?

Maybe a little quicker. Certainly smoother.

Not firewall, my goof.

I had cleaned that ground previously. Didn't think to check it.

No.

Not too cold. It's 40+ currently.

I removed the positive and gave it a visual inspection. Cleaned and the polished the connections. The neg looked ok for what I could tell since I didn't remove it.

Not yet. Winter advisory tonight. Will probably try the parts store Mon.

[Eagle_SX4]

42 minutes ago, NC Tom said:

Neg. to block was loose at the stud going into the block. I could not get the connections apart, so I just re-tightened the stud. The nut on the stud seemed to be seized. I was not able to get my hands and a wrench in that tight space to break it. Any suggestions?

I had the same issue I just the cable off close to block and removed the stud. Then replaced the cable and used a bolt instead of a stud.

[89 MJ]

9 minutes ago, NC Tom said:

Maybe a little quicker. Certainly smoother.

Not firewall, my goof.

I had cleaned that ground previously. Didn't think to check it.

No.

Not too cold. It's 40+ currently.

I removed the positive and gave it a visual inspection. Cleaned and the polished the connections. The neg looked ok for what I could tell since I didn't remove it.

Not yet. Winter advisory tonight. Will probably try the parts store Mon.

It seems like you're on the right track then. I think its definitely worth getting the negative cable off and cleaning it up. 

Might be worth checking that engine to chassis ground again, but a visual inspection will do for that one. A visual inspection is not always sufficient for the battery cables though. They could be corroded inside the casing. Best way to check that would be comparing your cranking voltage at the battery, which you've already done, to the cranking voltage at the solenoid. They should be just about the same. 

In my opinion, that's not cold enough to where you need to worry about having a heater hooked up. 

 

I'm curious as to what the parts store will tell you. In the meantime, and if you wanted to, next time you go to start the truck, cycle the key a few times so that the fuel pump will prime the system a couple of extra times. You cranking and it not starting and then your son cranking it and it starting almost makes it sound like the check valve in the fuel pump is letting the fuel drain back into the tank. That said, cranking speed is definitely a battery, battery cable, or starter issue. It could be such a situation where if the battery is bad, the sensors for the engine aren't getting enough voltage and preventing it from starting.

[NC Tom]

On 12/14/2024 at 4:58 PM, Eagle_SX4 said:

I had the same issue I just the cable off close to block and removed the stud. Then replaced the cable and used a bolt instead of a stud.

Do you recall the specs of that bolt? Size, thread count, etc.?

[NC Tom]

On 12/14/2024 at 5:02 PM, 89 MJ said:

 

Started and ran good yesterday, except for one stall out. I had gone to the dump, stopped short and she cut off. I tried several times to repeat the stall with no luck.

 

This morning she started after several attempts. It's damp and 50 degrees.

[Eagle_SX4]

I think it is a 5/16-18 thread not sure on the length

[89 MJ]

Still no trip to the parts store? Without that, I’m just guessing, but I suspect your slow cranking issue is the end of the battery cable that wasn’t fixed yet and your intermittent stalling or not starting is an ignition component that isn’t liking the moisture. 

[NC Tom]

8 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

Still no trip to the parts store? Without that, I’m just guessing, but I suspect your slow cranking issue is the end of the battery cable that wasn’t fixed yet and your intermittent stalling or not starting is an ignition component that isn’t liking the moisture. 

Have you ever heard or seen a TV show called "Mountain Men"? If so, those clowns live near me, only they are closer to civilization than I.

 

However, I did go by Advance Auto today. Battery test was solid, Alternator was good and because those two were good, he didn't see any reason to test the starter.

We talked a bit and he seem to think that it's a fuel delivery issue. He also suggested a vacuum test. I need to find the best way to do that. He suggested I check the secondary fuel filter as well. I picked one up while there in case he's right.

 

For today, after the initial several tries, it ran fine. Went to lunch, started and ran fine. Trouble starting at end of day. It actually started only after I tapped the gas pedal. Could be a coincidence.

[89 MJ]

Needing to hold the throttle open would indicate too much fuel in the combustion chamber. That should evaporate though after a period sitting and then wouldn’t want to start if you were just running it. I would lean to it being either an ignition issue or it’s not getting fuel to the injectors quick enough, something like the check valve in the fuel pump being no good. If you cycled the key three or so times so that the fuel pump runs without cranking the engine, that would answer that quickly. 

[NC Tom]

1 hour ago, 89 MJ said:

 If you cycled the key three or so times so that the fuel pump runs without cranking the engine, that would answer that quickly. 

You're saying turn the key, listen for the pump, turn key off. 3 times. What would that answer? I'm not following.