watchamakalit Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 I'm pretty green on differentials. But I know I shouldnt be able to grab hold of the ring gear and wiggle it up and down or side to side. Would it be carrier bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghetdjc320 Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Depends, is the whole carrier moving or just the ring gear? Are the caps on the carrier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted September 20, 2021 Author Share Posted September 20, 2021 I pulled the shafts looking for the growl. Wheel bearings are maybe 6 months old. Pulled the cover as the investigation continued. Caps still installed I can move three entire carrier. I have a video but I'm not sure how to post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghetdjc320 Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Just now, watchamakalit said: I pulled the shafts looking for the growl. Wheel bearings are maybe 6 months old. Pulled the cover as the investigation continued. Caps still installed I can move three entire carrier. I have a video but I'm not sure how to post it. Sounds like carrier bearings. Due for an overhaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted September 20, 2021 Author Share Posted September 20, 2021 I guess there is no time like the present to learn.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghetdjc320 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Can you upload a small clip or video of the play? Have you had the carrier out recently? There should be a set of shims on each side of the carrier just underneath the pressed on bearings. Make sure to keep the same shim packs on the same side and label everything for reference. Otherwise, if you plan to swap to a locker or setup new gears then you’ll have to setup new shim packs based on the new components. You can use a regular bearing puller to remove the old ones since they will be trashed anyways. Installing new ones requires either a press or a perfectly size pipe along with a 2.5-5lb hammer and a block of wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schardein Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 There shouldn't be any side to side movement, or in and out movement. Either would indicate worn carrier bearings, or improper setup. But, if you grasp the ring gear and hold the pinion gear stationary, there should be some slight "play" in the ring gear in relation to the pinion gear, in its normal direction of rotation. This play is called backlash and is part of the ring and pinion setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 20210920_163734.mp4 Sorry about the background noise. 9 hours ago, ghetdjc320 said: Can you upload a small clip or video of the play? Have you had the carrier out recently? There should be a set of shims on each side of the carrier just underneath the pressed on bearings. Make sure to keep the same shim packs on the same side and label everything for reference. Otherwise, if you plan to swap to a locker or setup new gears then you’ll have to setup new shim packs based on the new components. You can use a regular bearing puller to remove the old ones since they will be trashed anyways. Installing new ones requires either a press or a perfectly size pipe along with a 2.5-5lb hammer and a block of wood. 9 hours ago, schardein said: There shouldn't be any side to side movement, or in and out movement. Either would indicate worn carrier bearings, or improper setup. But, if you grasp the ring gear and hold the pinion gear stationary, there should be some slight "play" in the ring gear in relation to the pinion gear, in its normal direction of rotation. This play is called backlash and is part of the ring and pinion setup. I guess I'm not as green as I implied. Lol I understand what backlash is. This isnt backlash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghetdjc320 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Almost looks like you lost a thick shim. That’s a tremendous amount of play for a carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schardein Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Yep time for rebuild. Was there any noticeable metal in the oil? Does the pinion have any play? Turns smooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy in Pa Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Yikes... yeah that is either a missing shim or bad carrier bearings. Who was the last one inside that axle? Take a good hard look at the gears too and make sure there are no bad wear patterns. If its badly worn, even after its fixed it may have a growl or whine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 hours ago, schardein said: Yep time for rebuild. Was there any noticeable metal in the oil? Does the pinion have any play? Turns smooth? The oil was full of stripper glitter. It was beautiful. As do the pinion I don't believe so but havent pulled the driveshaft yet. 1 hour ago, Andy in Pa said: Yikes... yeah that is either a missing shim or bad carrier bearings. Who was the last one inside that axle? Take a good hard look at the gears too and make sure there are no bad wear patterns. If its badly worn, even after its fixed it may have a growl or whine. I changed the oil in it probably 4-5yrs ago. I plan to inspect well. I am pretty sure I lost a carrier bearing or 2. Planning to do some parts collecting and plan a rebuild weekend. I have helped (stood around and tried to absorb as much as possible) 2 times rebuilding differentials. I am still a bit nervous about doing one solo, but if I don't try I'll never learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghetdjc320 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 hour ago, watchamakalit said: The oil was full of stripper glitter. It was beautiful. As do the pinion I don't believe so but havent pulled the driveshaft yet. I changed the oil in it probably 4-5yrs ago. I plan to inspect well. I am pretty sure I lost a carrier bearing or 2. Planning to do some parts collecting and plan a rebuild weekend. I have helped (stood around and tried to absorb as much as possible) 2 times rebuilding differentials. I am still a bit nervous about doing one solo, but if I don't try I'll never learn. As @Andy in Pa and @schardein mentioned, definitely need a rebuild but take a close look at your gears first. And there was no metal shavings in the fluid or left in the housing? There should be zero side to side play in the carrier. It should actually be less than zero and actually have a few thousandths of preload on the bearings. The shim packs should be sandwiched under the bearings on the carrier. Make sure to mark and identify each side for reinstallation. Also mark the carrier bearing caps so everything goes back together the same way. I have a sneaking suspicion though that you have a shim or two missing/eaten/shredded and are going to have to set this up as a new gearset. Let’s just hope the gears themselves aren’t too worn. Unless you were driving a lot in 4wd though I bet they are still within tolerance. Especially since you didn’t loose any oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 14 minutes ago, ghetdjc320 said: As @Andy in Pa and @schardein mentioned, definitely need a rebuild but take a close look at your gears first. And there was no metal shavings in the fluid or left in the housing? There should be zero side to side play in the carrier. It should actually be less than zero and actually have a few thousandths of preload on the bearings. The shim packs should be sandwiched under the bearings on the carrier. Make sure to mark and identify each side for reinstallation. Also mark the carrier bearing caps so everything goes back together the same way. I have a sneaking suspicion though that you have a shim or two missing/eaten/shredded and are going to have to set this up as a new gearset. Let’s just hope the gears themselves aren’t too worn. Unless you were driving a lot in 4wd though I bet they are still within tolerance. Especially since you didn’t loose any oil. The oil was full of metal(stripper glitter). I havent really looked at it too hard yet. Found the loose carrier and stopped. I am planning to rebuild it. Possibly throw in a limited slip. I will look it all over very closely when I tear into it, and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghetdjc320 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, watchamakalit said: The oil was full of metal(stripper glitter). I havent really looked at it too hard yet. Found the loose carrier and stopped. I am planning to rebuild it. Possibly throw in a limited slip. I will look it all over very closely when I tear into it, and report back. what gears are in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted September 22, 2021 Author Share Posted September 22, 2021 58 minutes ago, ghetdjc320 said: what gears are in it? 3.55. Contemplated a gear change but then I'm into the front diff too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghetdjc320 Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 26 minutes ago, watchamakalit said: 3.55. Contemplated a gear change but then I'm into the front diff too. Ahh this is for the rear axle?? Yeah, a gear change will likely be necessary. You’ll want to take a good look at those bearing caps and all the journal surfaces in the housing. Something went very wrong there. By chance was there some very heavy towing/off-roading recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted September 22, 2021 Author Share Posted September 22, 2021 7 hours ago, ghetdjc320 said: Ahh this is for the rear axle?? Yeah, a gear change will likely be necessary. You’ll want to take a good look at those bearing caps and all the journal surfaces in the housing. Something went very wrong there. By chance was there some very heavy towing/off-roading recently. It is the rear axle. I don't wheel it. I have towed with it but nothing any whhere near what it will handle. The worst it sees is a utility trailer full of firewood and thats not very often these days. This dana 44 and the 30 both came from a junkyard truck of unknown condition roughly 10yrs ago. Other than a fluid change the only thing I have done was change wheel bearings recently and brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmorgo Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 You changed the wheel bearings on the rear axle? Usually if one bearing goes in an axle the metal floating around in oil takes out the rest of the bearings in pretty short order. You don't typically get away only changing out the one bearing, usually if you start looking into it you'll find the rest warrant changing out as well. With as much play between the ring and pinion as you have, plus the metal floating around, they'll have worn out the contact surfaces and they'll need changed too. If you don't change out all the gears and bearings you'll probably be back in there within the next few thousand miles for something else... or the same things again. That unfortunately is going to include your new wheel bearings. Setting up new gears yourself isn't difficult, but it does take precision. Thousandths of an inch can mean the difference between the diff lasting 500,000 miles or blowing up within 50 miles. It's possible to follow instructions online and get it dialled, but it's definitely better to have someone around who knows what they're doing to keep things on track. It's also critical to clean out the entire housing to get all the metal shrapnel out to stop it happening again. It's an excellent idea to get a magnet in there as well once you've rebuilt to collect anything that was missed. To answer the initial question, no, there should be absolutely no movement in the carrier or any component, other than rotating in their normal direction. The carrier bearings keep the carrier fixed in place. But they're not the only component in the system that does that. The carrier bearing shims have two functions. The first is setting the preload on the carrier bearings, to ensure zero end play (no side-to-side motion in the carrier) and the second is to locate the ring gear relative to the pinion. The gears want to push apart under load, so the preload, having no play, is critical to keeping the gear contact pattern where you want it. If anything is moving around at all, there's absolutely no way to keep the ring and pinion contacting the way they should, which will destroy the gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted October 4, 2021 Author Share Posted October 4, 2021 Ok ive got an update. Tore it down part way today. It doesnt seem to have any shims on the carrier. Didnt pull the pinion yet. Here is some puctures of what I found. Spider gear damage.... No noticeable damage to the ring gear.... And then there is the pinion..... And I'm not sure about this. Appears to be rtv..... Edit: Current shopping list: Front master rebuild kit New gearset for front to match rear Rear master rebuild kit New gear set for rear Limited slip unit for the rear Any suggestions on gearing would be welcome. I currently have 3:55's and find it anemic on the hills. I am contemplating 3:73 or possibly 4:10. Don't wanna loose the highway driveability as this is my daily. Currently running 31's with no intention of going any bigger. Suggestions on limited slip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmorgo Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 I’m not 100% but I think the orange RTV looking stuff is for sealing the axle tubes. I don’t know if it’s worth worrying about. The factory original carrier shims are cast iron spacers, not a stack of individual shims. An advantage of assembling axles by the million is you can have shims on hand that are the correct size instead of assembling a stack from a set. Makes it a lot quicker to put them together. Spider gear wear is pretty normal looking, consistent with lots of one-tire-fires off-road or in snow, or if you drive like I do. If it’s in the plans, now is going to be the time for a regear and a locker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 8 hours ago, watchamakalit said: Ok ive got an update. Tore it down part way today. It doesnt seem to have any shims on the carrier. Didnt pull the pinion yet. Here is some puctures of what I found. Spider gear damage.... No noticeable damage to the ring gear.... And then there is the pinion..... And I'm not sure about this. Appears to be rtv..... Edit: Current shopping list: Front master rebuild kit New gearset for front to match rear Rear master rebuild kit New gear set for rear Limited slip unit for the rear Any suggestions on gearing would be welcome. I currently have 3:55's and find it anemic on the hills. I am contemplating 3:73 or possibly 4:10. Don't wanna loose the highway driveability as this is my daily. Currently running 31's with no intention of going any bigger. Suggestions on limited slip? From personal experience, 31" tires with 3.73 gears is EXACTLY the same overall drive ratio as stock tires with 3.55 gearing. Personally, for the way you use the vehicle I probably wouldn't regear but, if you're going to do it, go to 4.10s. A Trac-Lok (the factory limited slip) is probably the cheapest limited slip you'll find. They're decent and more than adequate for the use you describe. Next step up is a TruTrac, which is a gear-driven limited slip. It doesn't require friction modifier, because it doesn't use clutches. Engagement is a bit more positive than a Trac-Lok. When buying parts -- buy two sets of carrier bearings. Take one set and hone out the ID enough that you can slide them onto and off the carrier by hand. Use those bearings for trial fitting the shims. Once you have the shim packs set correctly, then set aside the setup bearings and press on the other new set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchamakalit Posted October 4, 2021 Author Share Posted October 4, 2021 25 minutes ago, Eagle said: From personal experience, 31" tires with 3.73 gears is EXACTLY the same overall drive ratio as stock tires with 3.55 gearing. Personally, for the way to use the vehicle I probably wouldn't regear but, if you're going to do it, go to 4.10s. A Trac-Lok (the factory limited slip) is probably the cheapest limited slip you'll find. They're decent and more than adequate for the use you describe. Next step up is a TruTrac, which is a gear-driven limited slip. It doesn't require friction modifier, because it doesn't use clutches. Engagement is a bit more positive than a Trac-Lok. When buying parts -- buy two sets of carrier bearings. Take one set and hone out the ID enough that you can slide them onto and off the carrier by hand. Use those bearings for trial fitting the shims. Once you have the shim packs set correctly, then set aside the setup bearings and press on the other new set. Should i also buy a second set for the pinion too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, watchamakalit said: Should i also buy a second set for the pinion too? I don't think that's needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 If I was regearing for 31s, I'd do 4.10s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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