Riveting Floor Pans?

[Oyaji]

Rather than welding, what do you guys think of using a double staggered row of stainless steel blind rivets?

[vaquaro]

Can't weld .......Rivets worked for me   :thumbsup:

[Oyaji]

Another nice thing about blind rivets is that if you ever have to redo the job sometime in the future, it's easy to just drill and punch them out...

 

The end result isn't as pretty as welding, but how much time do you spend looking under the carpet and the underside of the truck anyway?  ;)

[Jeep Driver]

I had a 71 Camaro that I fiberglassed the floor pans. 4-5 layers of glass........probably stronger than they ever were.

 

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

At 19 years old, I brought this car home in pieces, literally in pieces, one piece at a time......every nut and bolt......built the engine too.

 

[91Pioneer]

I thought the floor pans were part of the rigidity/structure of the unibody design? If so rivets are a bad idea. If not, go for it as long as it's seam sealed well and won't rust out later on :-)

 

I was thinking that 3M Panel Bonding Adhesive would be a good choice if you can't weld. I've seen Kevin use it on Trucks TV.

 

I watched some guys rivet panels onto their XJs on youtube and thought WTF it just seems like a temporary fix to me. I don't know if they were "blind rivets" as I've never heard the term.

[mvusse]

Aside from that, at least in Ontario, riveted floor pans will not pass an inspection. Other states/provinces may have similar laws.

[jimoshel]

Properly applied a rivet joint can be be almost as strong as a weld, Stronger than a poor weld. What do you think they used in the aircraft industry for years? I can't remember the source or exact number but seems I read the b-24 Liberator of WWII used over a couple hundred thousand rivets in it's construction.

[dasbulliwagen]

The ones I've done in the past have just kept rusting or rusted worse after the fix. I agree it is temporary or just a band aid. I know I'm in North Carolina now but my experience was in Michigan. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that anymore.

[Tactical Bacon]

It's what I'm going to do. Cut the holes, put JB Weld around the edge, overlap the new plate 1" on each side, drill it, rivet it, bedliner on the inside, undercoat the outside, thick enough you can't see the rivets.

[JeepcoMJ]

If you rivet floors, you will want to use an abundant amount of sealant between the pieces.

 

 

You will also want to spray everything with rust-proofing paint prior to installing the rivets, but after drilling the holes if you can do so.

 

 

Anything else will just rust back. A sheet metal break will be almost a necessity to do it right and bend the angles on the outside edge to rivet to the inner rocker.

 

 

I would advise welding over riveting. It lasts longer.

[xjrev10]

I say go for it. If it keeps you from being like Fred Flinstone more power too ya.

 

I have had jeeps with stolen realitor signs, wood, beer boxes, chimney pipe cut and spread out and welded in.... It's all good. Just depends what you are doing with the truck. Not everyone needs a professional looking floor fix.

[Oyaji]

Properly applied a rivet joint can be be almost as strong as a weld, Stronger than a poor weld. What do you think they used in the aircraft industry for years? I can't remember the source or exact number but seems I read the b-24 Liberator of WWII used over a couple hundred thousand rivets in it's construction.

 

Indeed.

 

Interestingly, a glued lap joint can be stronger than the base material:

 

[Oyaji]

Aside from that, at least in Ontario, riveted floor pans will not pass an inspection. Other states/provinces may have similar laws.

 

 

I expect that is for safety, and that continuous bead welding is specified for the reason of keeping out potential for ingress of exhaust gas from a leaking exhaust system.

 

Diligent seam sealing is the cure in locales that allow riveting.

[JeepcoMJ]

 

Properly applied a rivet joint can be be almost as strong as a weld, Stronger than a poor weld. What do you think they used in the aircraft industry for years? I can't remember the source or exact number but seems I read the b-24 Liberator of WWII used over a couple hundred thousand rivets in it's construction.

 

Indeed.

 

Interestingly, a glued lap joint can be stronger than the base material:

 

 

So is a properly prepped and layed weld.

 

I guess the real question on the subject should be "how soon do you feel like doing the work again?"

[Oyaji]

Since spot welding is used for assembly of unibodies at the factory and rivets are essentially the same principle (only stronger), the rivets should last as long as the spot welds.

[jimoshel]

I have done several repairs using adhesive-rivets. Primary strength and bonding was with the adhesive. Primary purpose of the rivets was to hold the pieces together until the adhesive had set avoiding the need for C clamps, vice grips.

[Oyaji]

I had a 71 Camaro that I fiberglassed the floor pans. 4-5 layers of glass........probably stronger than they ever were.

 

 

Just a thought.

 

 

 

At 19 years old, I brought this car home in pieces, literally in pieces, one piece at a time......every nut and bolt......built the engine too.

 

 

 

Doable for sure. I did the rusted-out floor of my first 914 with 'glass... a full quarter-inch thick! It turned out far more rigid than the perfectly good passenger side.

 

I was worried about the 'glass patch separating from the metal, but it never did for the 10 years I drove it thereafter. In retrospect, I probably should have added some rivets or bolts once the patch cured, just to add a mechanical means of fastening for security.

[xjrev10]

Aside from that, at least in Ontario, riveted floor pans will not pass an inspection. Other states/provinces may have similar laws.

So if you don't have floor pans, you cannot pass inspection?

[Oyaji]

I have done several repairs using adhesive-rivets. Primary strength and bonding was with the adhesive. Primary purpose of the rivets was to hold the pieces together until the adhesive had set avoiding the need for C clamps, vice grips.

 

And you don't have to add seam sealant when finished - I like that.

 

The factories used to use a plastic solder to seal critical seams; I don't know if they still do.

 

A fine illustration of the strength of adhesives was their use to join frame members in the Plymouth Prowler.

 

I am curious, Jim - can you recommend a good adhesive?

[jimoshel]

It's been a couple years since the last time I used any and I'm sure they've come out with newer and better stuff since then. I'll let  one of the other members more up to date answer that. For simple repairs you can't beat JB weld. Also EpoxE is pretty good stuff. Just don't inhale the fumes. Checked the log book. The last adhesive I used to replace a panel on the Piper was 3M350. B/A. You'll rip the aluminum to shreds before you pull it apart.

[JeepcoMJ]

Since spot welding is used for assembly of unibodies at the factory and rivets are essentially the same principle (only stronger), the rivets should last as long as the spot welds.

I would respectfully disagree. You are talking stainless on dirty steel riveting. You cannot get all impurities out of 20+ year old metal, especially since it has corroded.

 

Even if you get it as clean as possible, you are combining un-like metals when you rivet instead of weld. The rivets open up more chance of leakage and corrosion as you have opened more surface area to water penetration with every hole drilled, regardless of sealant used or not.

 

It can't possibly last as long as the factory spot welds.

[mvusse]

 

Aside from that, at least in Ontario, riveted floor pans will not pass an inspection. Other states/provinces may have similar laws.

So if you don't have floor pans, you cannot pass inspection?

 

Don't know; haven't lived there since 1993. I just know the neighbor bought a car with a riveted floor pan and ended up taking it to the scrap yard because he couldn't get it plated.

 

 

Properly applied a rivet joint can be be almost as strong as a weld, Stronger than a poor weld. What do you think they used in the aircraft industry for years? I can't remember the source or exact number but seems I read the b-24 Liberator of WWII used over a couple hundred thousand rivets in it's construction.

 

Indeed.

 

Interestingly, a glued lap joint can be stronger than the base material:

 

 

Cool, a Dutch video. "Ideeen kriijgen vorm"  means "Ideas take shape".

[Oyaji]

 

Since spot welding is used for assembly of unibodies at the factory and rivets are essentially the same principle (only stronger), the rivets should last as long as the spot welds.

I would respectfully disagree. You are talking stainless on dirty steel riveting. You cannot get all impurities out of 20+ year old metal, especially since it has corroded.

 

Even if you get it as clean as possible, you are combining un-like metals when you rivet instead of weld. The rivets open up more chance of leakage and corrosion as you have opened more surface area to water penetration with every hole drilled, regardless of sealant used or not.

 

It can't possibly last as long as the factory spot welds.

 

 

I was talking about stainless rivets joining mild steel panels, but I take your point.

 

When joining panels, it is proper to cut out the rusted material and join good metal to good metal, same as for welding. I suppose plain steel rivets could be used in place of stainless - they are certainly cheaper. I just happen to have a few pounds of 3/16" stainless rivets on hand from boat work, where they offer good results with aluminum in a salt water environment. I can't imagine their use with steel would be any worse even on salted winter roads (on which many of us would never drive), but to be safer and avoid any potential electrolysis issues I guess it would be better to go with plain old cheap steel rivets.

 

That said, since I have plenty on hand already I will use stainless. If I run into any problems years down the road, I'll be sure to report back, but I am pretty sure they will outlast the truck.

[JeepcoMJ]

Personally, with all of the information you seem to throw around, I think it's a bit laughable that you haven't read a million books on welding to consider yourself an expert there, too.

 

 

Really, with welding floors, it doesn't have to be perfect. It's actually a perfect thing to learn on because of that. Go buy a cheap used wire feed gas MIG and go at it. You really should develop that skill.

[Oyaji]

Thanks for the advice, but I started welding 20 years before you were born. Though I don't claim to be a master craftsman, I can even lay a decent bead in aluminum with TIG when I need to. But my eyes are getting bad enough now that I don't need to be staring through a welding mask any more than I have to when there is a perfectly good alternative.