Riveting Floor Pans?

[JeepcoMJ]

Well, everyone has excuses.

 

 

Rivets will do fine, but not on a vehicle that you want to keep long term. It's been done time and again, and it almost always comes back having rotted out again, mere years down the road.

[Oyaji]

Noted.

 

But considering that you live deep in the rust belt and I live 700 miles south of it, your issue is not my issue. However, you are quite correct to bring it up for others who, like you, are not as fortunate.

[jimoshel]

Personally, with all of the information you seem to throw around, I think it's a bit laughable that you haven't read a million books on welding to consider yourself an expert there, too.

 

 

Really, with welding floors, it doesn't have to be perfect. It's actually a perfect thing to learn on because of that. Go buy a cheap used wire feed gas MIG and go at it. You really should develop that skill.

On a side note, one of the reasons, if not the main reason, rivets became so popular was during the war. You have heard about that haven't you? It's in all the history books.Skilled labor was hard to come by. You could take a newbie off the street and in 10 minutes, with adequate instruction. have them setting rivets. You're certainly not going to train a welder in 10 minutes.

[Oyaji]

 

Personally, with all of the information you seem to throw around, I think it's a bit laughable that you haven't read a million books on welding to consider yourself an expert there, too.

 

 

Really, with welding floors, it doesn't have to be perfect. It's actually a perfect thing to learn on because of that. Go buy a cheap used wire feed gas MIG and go at it. You really should develop that skill.

On a side note, one of the reasons, if not the main reason, rivets became so popular was during the war. You have heard about that haven't you? It's in all the history books.Skilled labor was hard to come by. You could take a newbie off the street and in 10 minutes, with adequate instruction. have them setting rivets. You're certainly not going to train a welder in 10 minutes.

 

Another reason was that the quality of the base metal of that time was not consistent, particularly in steel for ships. In such cases riveting is superior to welding in ultimate strength.

 

Riveting is also superior in that there is no residual stress from the local application of heat and subsequent cooling as there is in welding.

 

Not that this is applicable to the main subject of this thread - but it is interesting stuff about the subject in general.

[JeepcoMJ]

Jim, definitely on board with the history of rivets. OYAJI is quite correct about the quality issues at the time in the metal. The residual stress spoken of isn't as apparent when we're talking about 3/16" rivets and the adequate holes drilled (as you know, a circle is quite strong with the main benefit of being the single best way to stop cracks from beginning or spreading). The heating and cooling effect on sheet metal is not going to play into strength issues when it comes to floors. It will play into cause of corrosion by burning off the protective coating on the steel...and a lack of proper coating to prevent further corrosion afterwards.

 

Unfortunately, during the wars, there wasn't so much a lack of skilled labor as there was a lack of money to pay for skilled labor. A good welder can be trained in months, so long as they aren't stupid from the get-go.

[Oyaji]

It's also important to deburr the holes with a slight chamfer before driving the rivets to achieve best strength and avoid subsequent problems (at least for planes, as doubtless Jim can attest). I don't imagine it is an issue here, but it is part of good craftsmanship and is worth mentioning.

 

Another craftsmanship tip is the use of Cleco temporary fasteners, desirable but not essential here. I s'pose one could always work the perimeter having first marked out the pattern, staggering rivet placement as one would spread initial tack welds to limit heat distortion.

 

I know we have some students here who have doubtless covered rivet pattern and size requirements for a given base material in a design of machine elements class - will any of you make such recommendation, or do I need to go look it up?

[Automan2164]

All of you are nuts. Hardwood floors and roofing tar is the way to go. Don't ever have to worry about rust again, just have to run the swiffer every once and awhile to keep things on the up and up.

 

[AirborneDeth]

All of you are nuts. Hardwood floors and roofing tar is the way to go. Don't ever have to worry about rust again, just have to run the swiffer every once and awhile to keep things on the up and up.

 

 

You stole my idea!

[Oyaji]

*shudders*

 

Thank God I don't live at your latitude!

 

Anything worth doing is worth doing right (or right enough for the intended purpose), so if no one chimes in I'll have to go dig up a book. Barring that, past experience prompts me to use a staggered double row 1.5" apart with rivets also spaced 1.5" apart, and I am reasonably certain that the 3/16" diameter stainless blind rivets I have on hand are overkill. If I have a tube of NP4 on hand, I'll use it to seal the lap joint, otherwise I'll come up with something else that should do the job well and still be removable without too much difficulty.

 

If I don't like it and would like to change it to a repair indistinguishable from factory original sometime in the future, I can always drill out the rivets and start over with a more cosmetically pleasing repair at that time - removing the adhesive will be the hard part about that.

[JeepcoMJ]

You know, I really guess I just don't care what way you do it. Either way will get the job done, one way is the wrong way to do it correctly, the other takes skill.. I wouldn't ever rivet any metal panel together, be it floor or body panel. Just too nasty and unclean of a job, and bringing things like spending the time to drill or de-burr all of those holes. That will take more time.

 

Do as you wish, I am disinterested.

[jimoshel]

Any body interested in the proper way to set rivets, or just wants to learn something new may I suggest the following books.

Airframe and Powerplant  Mechanics. Published by The DOT, FAA, EA-AC65-9

Aircraft Inspection and Repair, DOT, FAA EA-AC-43.-1A&2

[dasbulliwagen]

You guys keep going at it... we can change the name of this place to "Land of the the Locked Threads"

[tubpilot]

I think using rivets to hold the new pan in place while adhesive such as Duramix (a 2 part epoxy) cures would be decent if you can't weld. Preparation and temperature/humidity is key, but done properly it's a real alternative. Blind rivets are no comparison to anything used on aircraft. Aircraft rivets are solid rivets and need to be driven from one side and bucked from the other, similar to old bridges. They are spaced as tight as 3 times the rivet diameter, so imagine the number required to do it properly. Where blind rivets are used on aircraft is due to lack of access to the other side, and then the rivets used are pricey Huck, Avex and Cherry max rivets. 

However you do it, take your time and do a good job. Post some pics and enjoy your Manche!

[sloride]

I'm with jimoshel and tubpilot on this.  25years ago I worked at TWA overhaul base here in KC in the engineering department.  Edge distance and spacing between rivets is key.  But for someone that can't weld, another option might be to have 'welder-for-hire' do your pans for you.  Some will show up at your door while others have a shop.  You might have a neighbor that as a MIG that will do it for a case of beer.  Its just a thought.