Hell Creek 3" rear springs rough ride question??

[knever3]

I have Hell Creek 3" lift rear springs installed and I was wondering if anyone has removed one of the leaves to improve the ride? The springs have 5 leaves so if I take one off would it ride better and sit a little lower? The rear sits a lot higher than the front with 3" Motion Offroad springs.

 

I don't need to carry 1500lbs of gear in the bed I would like better ride empty. It rides great with 500lbs in the bed but it rides like a 5 ton stake truck empty.

 

Any suggestions would be great.

 

Here is a pic with a few hundred pounds of trash I took to the dump, it didn't squat an inch but it rode better.

[HellCreek]

Hi, Kevin,

 

First off, Nice Truck ! :thumbsup: I wish mine looked that good.

 

Secondly, yes, you can remove the last leaf in the main spring pack to soften the ride. That will reduce the load capacity from 1440 lbs. to 980 lbs. and also lower the rear about an inch. Brent (BLHTAZ) has a setup like this. He has our first 3" lift springs with RE front coils. His springs were made with 3 leaves plus the bottom 2nd stage overload leaf. I am running our first 4.5" springs with 4 +1 leaves, just like yours. I am happy with my ride and I have the original clinch-type spring clips, instead of the bolt-type that we used on all of our production springs. My truck is a SWB Sport truck, and I usually have it empty.

 

Thanks,

Tom

[knever3]

I am happy with my ride and I have the original clinch-type spring clips, instead of the bolt-type that we used on all of our production springs. My truck is a SWB Sport truck, and I usually have it empty.

 

What do you mean about the clinch-type spring clips? Could you show me a picture? The leaves creek a lot when taking off at any speed because the springs have about an inch before contacting the bolt and clamp. Is this what you are referring to? If so how can I eliminate this creeking? This seems like it would contribute to a ton of axle wrap if any power is put to the ground and thus straining the U-joints due to pinion angle, can this be remided?

[wannabeMJ]

I am happy with my ride and I have the original clinch-type spring clips, instead of the bolt-type that we used on all of our production springs. My truck is a SWB Sport truck, and I usually have it empty.

 

What do you mean about the clinch-type spring clips? Could you show me a picture? The leaves creek a lot when taking off at any speed because the springs have about an inch before contacting the bolt and clamp. Is this what you are referring to? If so how can I eliminate this creeking? This seems like it would contribute to a ton of axle wrap if any power not unless your are spring over Are you? is put to the ground and thus straining the U-joints due to pinion angle, can this be remided?

 

 

couldn't go on photobucket from work but does your leafs have some like that on but both sides

http://www.truckspring.com/Images/Leaf% ... 50_tab.jpg

is that what's squeaking on yours

[wannabeMJ]

I've just put 4.5" on my MJ and mine sits level

 

did you go with the full leaf pack or just the add a leaf?

[HellCreek]

I am happy with my ride and I have the original clinch-type spring clips, instead of the bolt-type that we used on all of our production springs. My truck is a SWB Sport truck, and I usually have it empty.

 

What do you mean about the clinch-type spring clips? Could you show me a picture? The leaves creek a lot when taking off at any speed because the springs have about an inch before contacting the bolt and clamp. Is this what you are referring to? If so how can I eliminate this creeking? This seems like it would contribute to a ton of axle wrap if any power is put to the ground and thus straining the U-joints due to pinion angle, can this be remided?

 

 

Hi, Kevin,

 

Bolt-type clips are a plus -- not a bad thing. They allow more flex and movement in the spring, and thus a softer ride. If you believe that the noise is coming from the spring leaves rubbing against the clips, then a good grease applied to the inside surfaces of the clip should solve the problem. I'm sure most of the guys on here would prefer bolt-type clips to wrap (clinch) type clips.

 

-Tom

[SW86]

so if you remove the bottom leaf to soften the ride, would that also give better flex?

 

 

also, hey knever3, what size tires are you running?

[knever3]

couldn't go on photobucket from work but does your leafs have some like that on but both sides

 

Here are some pics of the leaf packs I have, they have 5 leaves with the bolt and clamp on both ends of the main leaf with a space of around an inch before they hit any other leaf. I think when I take off they creek because they have so much room to move on either side before hitting the next leaf. I could grease them but what if I put some hard rubber strips inbetween each leaf?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the replies, this is good stuff!!!

[HellCreek]

so if you remove the bottom leaf to soften the ride, would that also give better flex?

 

Yes, a softer spring gives better flex, but, as a trade-off, you lose carrying capacity.

 

Kevin,

 

In your pictures I don't see any evidence of the spring leaves rubbing the spring clips (no shiny spots). Could the squeaking be coming from the shackles or the anchor bushing? :dunno:

 

-Tom

[WahooSteeler]

Tom, are those metric ton or equivalent leaf packs on this truck?

[HOrnbrod]

I'm not Tom Wahoo :D , but I suspect these are similar in specs to the stock MJ 4+1 (overload leaf) p/n 52001825 built w. additional arch over the stock MT springs to guarantee the 4" lift. The arch on the stock MT 4+1 springs was about 9". I would think these would ride hard unloaded.

 

I used the 3+2 MT stock springs w. the stock arch specs that netted about 2-1/2" lift, then used TeraFlex shackles to get another 1/2" to equal the front w. the OME 3" lift coils. I thought this was a better way to go since 90% of the time I don't carry a load and wanted to retain the ride quality. I can carry about 1K lbs. before any sag appears. And they ride very nice unloaded.

 

Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but by all logic it would seem if MT springs built w. additional arch would naturally ride hard unloaded. Of course I may be AFU on this too......... :cheers:

[Pete M]

do you have longer lower control arms?

 

I have Hell Creek 3" lift rear springs installed and I was wondering if anyone has removed one of the leaves to improve the ride? The springs have 5 leaves so if I take one off would it ride better and sit a little lower? The rear sits a lot higher than the front with 3" Motion Offroad springs.

 

I don't need to carry 1500lbs of gear in the bed I would like better ride empty. It rides great with 500lbs in the bed but it rides like a 5 ton stake truck empty.

 

Any suggestions would be great.

 

Here is a pic with a few hundred pounds of trash I took to the dump, it didn't squat an inch but it rode better.

[HellCreek]

I'm not Tom Wahoo :D , but I suspect these are similar in specs to the stock MJ 4+1 (overload leaf) p/n 52001825 built w. additional arch over the stock MT springs to guarantee the 4" lift. The arch on the stock MT 4+1 springs was about 9". I would think these would ride hard unloaded.

 

I used the 3+2 MT stock springs w. the stock arch specs that netted about 2-1/2" lift, then used TeraFlex shackles to get another 1/2" to equal the front w. the OME 3" lift coils. I thought this was a better way to go since 90% of the time I don't carry a load and wanted to retain the ride quality. I can carry about 1K lbs. before any sag appears. And they ride very nice unloaded.

 

Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but by all logic it would seem if MT springs built w. additional arch would naturally ride hard unloaded. Of course I may be AFU on this too......... :cheers:

 

Wahoo,

 

Don is correct. Our lift springs, both 3" and 4.5", are basically the 1440 lb. capacity 4+1 springs with extra arch and slightly longer main leaves to compensate for the arch. We really don't consider these springs to be actual Metric Tonne springs, since the MT springs have a capacity of 1700 lbs., but they will carry more load initially, since the main spring pack on the 1440 lb. springs is 1.164" total thickness, and the MT main spring pack is 0.937" total thickness. The extra capacity of the MT springs comes from the double 2nd stage overload leaves. Anyone can soften the ride on our lift springs by removing the 4th leaf in the spring pack. The only drawbacks are that you would lose capacity and a little lift (probably about 3/4 to 1 inch). This would also allow for a more level looking truck. As I said earlier BLHTAZ is running this setup on his truck.

 

-Tom

[WahooSteeler]

You da man...(and Don too) :thumbsup:

[knever3]

Yes, a softer spring gives better flex, but, as a trade-off, you lose carrying capacity.

 

Kevin,

 

In your pictures I don't see any evidence of the spring leaves rubbing the spring clips (no shiny spots). Could the squeaking be coming from the shackles or the anchor bushing?

 

This is a very good question. First off I haven't actually had someone else drive the truck and me watch to see how the springs react. That said I did not replace the shackles and I would like to, do you know which ones I should get? The bushings were froze up but I did get them worked loose. This would be a great upgrade when I remove the rear end to take that extra leaf off. I will start looking for the shackles but if anyone has any suggestions on prior experience let me know.

 

Do you have longer lower control arms?

 

No I don't Pete, I have stock '93 Cherokee lowers and new stock uppers now. I plan on buying JKS adjustable lowers because as of now my caster is high because I haven't installed any shims. It does drive like a shopping cart but the steering is sure easy!!

 

I plan on a lot of upgrades this winter so hopefully I get the time to enjoy the work.

[Motion Offroad]

Your shackle angle will make a huge difference in the quality of the ride as well. It's hard to see by your pics but what do the angle look like?

 

A set of boomerang shackles would help a lot. JKS Mfg. makes a 1" extended XJ shackle that will keep the MJ very close to the factory length (thus no lift).

 

Also having a greasable shackle will help with the noise.

[SW86]

i just popped off my bottom leaf and man it really was about an inch difference. i guess if you want that inch back just throw on some adj. shackles though.

 

hope this gives me the look and ride i want cause i pretty much f**ked up the threads on my bolt, so putting the bottom leaf back on won't happen unless i buy new bolts. plus it looks as if youll have to cut off some of it for it to fit right under the axle. ill find out for sure soon enough ;)

[Pete M]

too short control arms can also contribute to a rough ride. as will stiff springs and cheap shocks.

[HellCreek]

i just popped off my bottom leaf and man it really was about an inch difference. i guess if you want that inch back just throw on some adj. shackles though.

 

hope this gives me the look and ride i want cause i pretty much f**ked up the threads on my bolt, so putting the bottom leaf back on won't happen unless i buy new bolts. plus it looks as if youll have to cut off some of it for it to fit right under the axle. ill find out for sure soon enough ;)

 

We have new center bolts, if you need them. You can also use a socket head cap screw (some folks call them "Allen bolts"). The hole in the axle saddle, however, is 12 mm and the head of the standard 3/8" socket head cap screw is 9/16", so you would have to either turn the head of the bolt on a lathe or enlarge the hole in the axle saddle in order to use them.

 

Any aftermarket shackle designed for our trucks will work. I have never really seen the value in "boomerang" shackles, except that they would allow more flex toward the bumper, since they are "bent" that way, offering more clearance before hitting an obstruction, like the bumper. This helps on vehicles with the shackles mounted directly beneath the bumper, like CJs, Samurais and Land Cruisers but not so much on our trucks. When you look at them, though, the spring shackle eye and the frame shackle eye are still in a straight line. It's that "shortest distance between two points is a straight line" thing.

 

-Tom

[Motion Offroad]

I have never really seen the value in "boomerang" shackles, except that they would allow more flex toward the bumper, since they are "bent" that way, offering more clearance before hitting an obstruction, like the bumper. This helps on vehicles with the shackles mounted directly beneath the bumper, like CJs, Samurais and Land Cruisers but not so much on our trucks. When you look at them, though, the spring shackle eye and the frame shackle eye are still in a straight line. It's that "shortest distance between two points is a straight line" thing.

 

It's not about clearance as much with the MJ's, but instead shackle inversion & angle. Imagine the shackle dangling freely, now attach a spring and allow it to droop. The shackle will swing toward the frame. Now, if the spring compresses and there's pressure on the tire, the shackle cannot swing back forward and instead will rise up (swing backward) during the spring compression. This causes the spring to bend upward at the end. The boomerang shackle helps prevents it due to the angle.

 

Also the angle is very much key in how a rear leaf will ride while on the road. Though it's the same distance between 2 points I'll agree; but if your shackle is say at 45deg vs. 30deg you will notice a huge amount if difference in ride quality. It has to do with how much movement the shackle can make; and how the energy is transferred to the vehicle. Though the same distance between 2 points, the angle has everything to do with ride quality. A boomerang shackle changes the angle of the shackle itself, thus making the ride quality better.

[skidoo_j]

I have never really seen the value in "boomerang" shackles, except that they would allow more flex toward the bumper, since they are "bent" that way, offering more clearance before hitting an obstruction, like the bumper. This helps on vehicles with the shackles mounted directly beneath the bumper, like CJs, Samurais and Land Cruisers but not so much on our trucks. When you look at them, though, the spring shackle eye and the frame shackle eye are still in a straight line. It's that "shortest distance between two points is a straight line" thing.

 

It's not about clearance as much with the MJ's, but instead shackle inversion & angle. Imagine the shackle dangling freely, now attach a spring and allow it to droop. The shackle will swing toward the frame. Now, if the spring compresses and there's pressure on the tire, the shackle cannot swing back forward and instead will rise up (swing backward) during the spring compression. This causes the spring to bend upward at the end. The boomerang shackle helps prevents it due to the angle.

 

Also the angle is very much key in how a rear leaf will ride while on the road. Though it's the same distance between 2 points I'll agree; but if your shackle is say at 45deg vs. 30deg you will notice a huge amount if difference in ride quality. It has to do with how much movement the shackle can make; and how the energy is transferred to the vehicle. Though the same distance between 2 points, the angle has everything to do with ride quality. A boomerang shackle changes the angle of the shackle itself, thus making the ride quality better.

 

 

I know this is an old dead thread, but I'm currently researching My Leaf springs. What you're saying here is contradictory to torque and levers. I can get out my physics books etc, but I'm thinking Hellcreek is correct on this. If the shackle droops free it will find it's center like a plumb bob, so if eye to eye is the same for the boomerang vs stock the only difference in this resting position would be the balance of the weight of the shackle of the boomerang not being balanced, however this offset plumb would go away when the leaf spring it's self is attached freely as the weight of the axle etc would far out weigh the shackle balance, therefore the force down and forward back would be the same regardless of the design. when the weight is put back on the spring the vector diagrams would be the same, however if it was so much force you could possibly get a torsion or spring effect due to the boomerang design, but then again that would be at the flex of the metal.

 

ultimately if both eyes are equal distant both of them end up equillavent levers, and one is able to swing a bit farther before it is stopped due to obstructions.

[Motion Offroad]

Yes, the truth of the matter is you can have any shape shackle you'd like and it doesn't make a bit of difference between mounting point to mounting point. It can be straight, boomerang, S shaped, or shaped like a lighting bolt. The only thing that matters is the angle from mounting hole to mounting hole. The rest is all about packaging and preventing "shackle inversion" which was stated originally (we'll get into that in a minute). Here's some pics to illustrate what I'm talking about. The last image is them all overlaid.

 

 

 

 

 

The angle of the shackle however, can soften or stiffen the spring's normal rate. You can find the angle of a shackle by drawing a line through the middle of both spring mounting eyes, and a line through the shackle pivots. Then find the angle made by the two lines. You can increase the effective rate of a leaf spring by decreasing the shackle angle. An increase in shackle angle will produce a decrease in the effective leaf spring rate of a leaf spring.

 

Here's 4 more images of the same spring in a compressed state. The last one is them all overlaid.

 

 

 

 

 

This brings us to "shackle inversion". Shackle inversion is when the leaf spring droops past it's maximum point. This happens when the axle is fully drooped out and something hits the shackle (or leaf, or axle attached to the shackle) forcing it to compress in the opposite direction. It usually leads to a bent or broken leaf spring, and most people choose a "boomerang" style shackle to avoid this.

 

Why do I think a boomerang shackle will ride better on the MJ's? As the suspension travels while your driving the vehicle, and due to the length of the MJ shackle, the length of the leaf spring, and the shackle angle you are often at the "shackle inversion" point (or close to it). A boomerang shackle will keep the leaf and shackle angle towards the rear. If the factory shackle is always close to the shackle inversion point during suspension travel the ride will greatly be effected. Really the only thing it has going for it is that it's SOA from the factory; thus why I believe more people do not have problems with shackle inversion. Switch it to SOA and you'll see all kinds of people complaining about shackle inversion with the factory shackles/leafs on the MJ. Add in the fact that our trucks don't weigh much in the rear and you'll be fighting shackle inversion a lot (especially if you offroad your MJ).

 

 

*all pics were made by 87jeepwrangler over on the jeepsunlimited forum*

[knever3]

Wow, that's a lot of info. After removing one leaf, the second from the bottom the truck rides much better. It dropped about 1/2" to 1" but that's what I wanted to level it out. It still has plenty of load capacity because I've hauled a lot of stuff since I put the truck back together. I had the leafs blasted and repainted with a tough epoxy primer and black paint over that. I replaced the center bolts because they are fine thread and when you back them out they mash the threads pretty easily, just a stop by fastenall and a few bucks later and I was back in business. I used JKS shackles when I put them back in because my bushings were old.

 

Just after I installed them the first time.

 

 

After maybe 200 miles in the summer.

 

 

Removed for repaint.

 

Reinstalled.