New MEAT transmission topic, Brain Buster

[BORDENCOMANCHE]

We've been going over and over and over the same old stuff, how bout this one.

 

I am done my 4x4 conversion to from rwd to 4x4. First ever epic build turned into an EPIC FAIL!

 

I got all my stuff hooked up ready to rock, I fired up the truck, I heard a mechanical whining noise coming from the transmission (Ba 10/5, NP231), while the truck was in neutral I thought, oh crap, forgot to fill the tranny. so I filled the tranny. I fired the truck back up and same problem, whining noise, but not as loud this time. I know I filled the tranny properly because the gooy (hypoid) oil came shooting out the side of the transmission when I filled it.

 

I push the clutch in (it too is bled properly) and the noise goes away, I release the clutch and the noise comes back. Doesn't matter what I do to the tranny, the noise is there as long as the truck is running.

 

I have accepted that I have to rebuild the transmission, good thing is that I still have the rwd Ba 10/5 that is in great shape. can I use pieces from this transmission to rebuild my 4x4 pegeot??

 

i repeat, can I use pieces of a rwd ba 10/5 transmission to rebuild my 4x4 pegeot?

 

EDITED FOR CLARITY

[jimoshel]

I'm not that familiar with the BA10 so this is a general sort of answer. Surely Pete, Don or Corry will correct and add to what I say. Place the two transmissions side by side. Compare the output shaft, diameter,length, spline count. If they're the same then the TC should bolt right up. The internals should be the same so if the output shaft don't fit then disassemble them and swap shafts. Frankly I would get a ax15

[shelbyluvv]

Normally when the whinning stops while pressing the clutch pedal down, it means the throw out bearing is going bad.

 

Did you replace the bearing when you did the swap?

[Geonovast]

This is true for the AX-4/5, and AX-15, but I would assume the same rule applies for the Pukey.

 

All the gears and bearings between your 2wd and 4wd transmissions should be the same. You could probably yank it back out 'rebuild'(I don't consider using used parts as a rebuild) it, put it back in, and the noise might go away. But, it might not.

 

But it does sound more like the throwout bearing. The internal slave/throwout bearing in my 4.0 MJ was perfectly fine before I swapped to a 4wd trans. Something happened to it during the swap, and as soon as I started driving with the 4wd tranny, if I had the clutch put in, I had a horrendous grinding noise come from it, and I'm amazed it didn't explode on me during the 560 mile trip to MO.

 

But back to your question. Yes, you could probably 'rebuild' the trans. But why? Your time is much better spent locating and throwing in an AX-15.

[BORDENCOMANCHE]

the answer is always money buddy, I don't have much left in my 4x4 swap budget, I owe WildBill 100 something bucks which puts me 200 over budget. Money man,.

[jpnjim]

Good news,

If the 4x4 tranny is junk, you can actually use the whole 2wd Peugot tranny in place of the 4wd one.

 

 

If you pull the tailhousing (long cone) off the back of the tranny you'll see why.

 

The entire output shaft is splined, for the last foot, or so (It's been a while since I did it, but it was ~1ft).

 

I converted two of these myself, so I know it works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This ONLY works on Peugeot BA 10-5's

 

1) Mark how far the output shaft sticks out of the 4x4 tranny's T-case adapter (I think it's just about flush)

 

2)Unbolt the t-case adapter from the 4x4 tranny.

 

3)Unbolt the 2wd tranny's cone shaped tail housing

 

4)slide the speedo gear off the 2wd's output shaft (the speedo gear is the same 21sp as the rest of the shaft, and the reason the entire shaft is splned).

 

5)Slide the 4wd tranny's t-case adapter on the 2wd tranny. (clean this housing as much as you can, especially if the 4x4 tranny was starting to self destruct)

 

6)Mark the 2wd's long output shaft at the length it needs to be cut (to match the 4x4 tranny's length).

 

7)While protecting the tranny internals from flying chunks of cut off steel, get some kind of a cut off wheel, and trim that shaft to fit.

 

8 )Clean up that cut off end so it's nice & smooth, bolt the T-case adapter on permanently, and enjoy your new 4x4 BA. :thumbsup:

 

 

I figured this out about 12 years ago (converted my first MJ without even pulling the tranny :D ), but have never heard of anyone else doing it.

A couple years later I did a second one, to keep as a spare, and it worked out just as well as the first time.

 

Both of those old tranny's are gone, but I think I have the cut off section of output shaft around here if anyone wants some kind of proof that it works. :smart:

[jpnjim]

Good news,

If the 4x4 tranny is junk, you can actually use the whole 2wd Peugot tranny in place of the 4wd one.

 

 

If you pull the tailhousing (long cone) off the back of the tranny you'll see why.

 

The entire output shaft is splined, for the last foot, or so (It's been a while since I did it, but it was ~1ft).

 

I converted two of these myself, so I know it works.

 

OK, I lied just a little.

 

I dug out the old shaft, and instead of the spline being continous,

the spline starts, stops, and starts again.

 

When you chop off the 8" or so, the section that the speed gear rode on ends up being your new output splines:

 

 

Part of the splines you see at the cutoff point were the speedogear splines, so the place to cut is just after a groove, after the new splines start up again.

 

 

You can even see the hack butcher method I used to chop it off (cut around the outside, then WHACK it off with a hammer :rotf: ):

 

It was winter time, and I did it laying under the Jeep. :D

 

If you're worried about these 'new' splines not being as strong as the ones on the end,

 

I can attest that I absolutely beat the unmerciful snot out of this MJ once it was 4x4.

The whole time I had it & wheeled it in New England & Upstate New York, the only tranny it ever had was this 120k+ mile converted 2wd BA.

I've destroyed BA's in the past, but I never had any issues with this one at all.

[Wildman]

Makes total sense.

 

That's always been the draw back on the 2wd tranny use after a 4wd conversion.

 

Cutting the output shaft would save you alot of time tearing into the BA10, Plus, At this point, what ya got to loose :dunno:

 

If jpnjim said it will work, I don't dough him.

 

At worst, you still have the parts from the 2wd BA10 to go the extreme route.

 

But........what you write about the noise goes away when you push in the clutch........I'll agree, there's a problem with the slave/throw out bearing.

 

I assume........you used the old clutch and parts??? Not new, while you had it all apart????

[BORDENCOMANCHE]

Two points:

 

1) I really like the idea of chopping up the 2wd tranny, it was in good shape, I know this for fact, because I wheeled the SH#* out of it.

I tried sticking the 2wd shaft into the back of the transfer case when I removed it just for *#$#s and giggles and it didn't fit in because the old tranny had a 23 spline output (I hope the number is right).

 

2)Here is where I screwed up. You guys are right, I should have put on a new clutch and what not, local parts guy quoted me 275 for pressure plate, clutch, and throwout bearing assembly. Problem is, I didn't have the money, I still have a mount and shaft to pay for (which by the way will be on its way soon).

 

The Ba10/5 and NP231 came as a unit from a private purchase, the guy assured me that unit was good to go, I checked it by hand in his garage by using all the ranges on the t-case and all the gears on the tranny respectively. The throwout bearing that came with unit spun freely like a top, so I thought it was good, I just installed it. It looked in better shape then the one I had. I do have my old one, maybe I will throw it on and find out what happens, failing that, I guess I will just mix and match parts until the noise goes away, if I end up chopping the 2wd Tranny I will take pictures.

 

FYI I was reading in my chiltons that there are two types of clutch plates for these 4.0L trucks and that each has its own hydrulic clutch. One won't work with the other, there is a difference of one and a quarter inch. The throw out bearing I put in there came out of a YJ.

[whowey]

Good news,

If the 4x4 tranny is junk, you can actually use the whole 2wd Peugot tranny in place of the 4wd one.

 

 

If you pull the tailhousing (long cone) off the back of the tranny you'll see why.

 

The entire output shaft is splined, for the last foot, or so (It's been a while since I did it, but it was ~1ft).

 

I converted two of these myself, so I know it works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This ONLY works on Peugeot BA 10-5's

 

1) Mark how far the output shaft sticks out of the 4x4 tranny's T-case adapter (I think it's just about flush)

 

2)Unbolt the t-case adapter from the 4x4 tranny.

 

3)Unbolt the 2wd tranny's cone shaped tail housing

 

4)slide the speedo gear off the 2wd's output shaft (the speedo gear is the same 21sp as the rest of the shaft, and the reason the entire shaft is splned).

 

5)Slide the 4wd tranny's t-case adapter on the 2wd tranny. (clean this housing as much as you can, especially if the 4x4 tranny was starting to self destruct)

 

6)Mark the 2wd's long output shaft at the length it needs to be cut (to match the 4x4 tranny's length).

 

7)While protecting the tranny internals from flying chunks of cut off steel, get some kind of a cut off wheel, and trim that shaft to fit.

 

8 )Clean up that cut off end so it's nice & smooth, bolt the T-case adapter on permanently, and enjoy your new 4x4 BA. :thumbsup:

 

 

I figured this out about 12 years ago (converted my first MJ without even pulling the tranny :D ), but have never heard of anyone else doing it.

A couple years later I did a second one, to keep as a spare, and it worked out just as well as the first time.

 

Both of those old tranny's are gone, but I think I have the cut off section of output shaft around here if anyone wants some kind of proof that it works. :smart:

 

 

 

Well.. I wish I had this bit of info about two weeks ago.....

[jpnjim]

Good news,

If the 4x4 tranny is junk, you can actually use the whole 2wd Peugot tranny in place of the 4wd one.

 

 

If you pull the tailhousing (long cone) off the back of the tranny you'll see why.

 

The entire output shaft is splined, for the last foot, or so (It's been a while since I did it, but it was ~1ft).

 

I converted two of these myself, so I know it works.

 

 

 

 

 

This ONLY works on Peugeot BA 10-5's

 

1) Mark how far the output shaft sticks out of the 4x4 tranny's T-case adapter (I think it's just about flush)

 

2)Unbolt the t-case adapter from the 4x4 tranny.

 

3)Unbolt the 2wd tranny's cone shaped tail housing

 

4)slide the speedo gear off the 2wd's output shaft (the speedo gear is the same 21sp as the rest of the shaft, and the reason the entire shaft is splned).

 

5)Slide the 4wd tranny's t-case adapter on the 2wd tranny. (clean this housing as much as you can, especially if the 4x4 tranny was starting to self destruct)

 

6)Mark the 2wd's long output shaft at the length it needs to be cut (to match the 4x4 tranny's length).

 

7)While protecting the tranny internals from flying chunks of cut off steel, get some kind of a cut off wheel, and trim that shaft to fit.

 

8 )Clean up that cut off end so it's nice & smooth, bolt the T-case adapter on permanently, and enjoy your new 4x4 BA. :thumbsup:

 

 

I figured this out about 12 years ago (converted my first MJ without even pulling the tranny :D ), but have never heard of anyone else doing it.

A couple years later I did a second one, to keep as a spare, and it worked out just as well as the first time.

 

Both of those old tranny's are gone, but I think I have the cut off section of output shaft around here if anyone wants some kind of proof that it works. :smart:

 

 

 

Well.. I wish I had this bit of info about two weeks ago.....

 

I posted it here last year:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16190&start=15

 

I probably should've done a writeup on it, but I don't have the tranny's anymore to take pics (sad to say I tossed out 3 working Peugeots a few years ago).

[Wildman]

I would think the first thing would be to change out the clutch with the original one from the 2wd..........

 

We're all on 'budgets', it's just extra time you need to do the swap :roll:

 

I know this is time consuming, but, it's a "try" to see if your noise is from the clutch, or the tranny it's self.

 

I was reading in my chiltons that there are two types of clutch plates for these 4.0L

 

A shot in the Dark here.........I'm thinking there talking about the 2 clutch's, the BA10 or AX15.

 

From Rockauto. com -

 

BRUTE POWER / PERFECTION CLUTCH Part # 90414 More Info {#MU18901}

10.4" Clutch; Raised Diaphragm; 10.4x10Tx1 1/8 $167.99

 

Well all know how your parts store have a little less competition than ours :roll:

 

I don't know YJ's but there is a chance, that the clutch is shot from that one, or what, just the slave/throwout bearing is the problem :dunno:

 

Did you leave the pressure plate and clutch disk on your 4.0, and leave the slave in the "newer" BA10, and just bolt it up :hmm:

 

If that's the case..........how do you know the slave is "matched" up with your original pressure plate????

 

In other words.......are they both from the same manufacture???

[jpnjim]

I stayed out of the 'clutch problem vs transmission problem' part of this thread so far, but I'll add my 2C:

 

Throw out

A bad throwout bearing usually makes more noise when the clutch is pushed in, because that's when it's under stress (pushing the pressure plate in loads the bearing, and letting the PP spin with the engine while the input shaft stays put means the bearing itself has to be spinning as well as being loaded).

 

 

But if someone has a noisy junk tranny that grinds & rattles, the noise typically goes away when you push in the clutch (& it stops spinning).

 

The OP seems to say it's louder with the clutch out (engaged), and quieter with the clutch pedal pushed in (disengaged),

since he also said the sound seemed to be coming from the tranny, I'd lean in the direction of a noisy/potentially bad tranny.

 

Tranny

Sometimes tranny's are just loud (ala NV3550), but they still function fine,

though the BA is not known to be super loud normally (a dying one can be tho :D ).

 

The OP said he filled it till oil came out the side,

I'd put that side plug in, and maybe add another 1/4 to 1/2 quart.

These Peugeots are pretty good at ejecting the oil if you overfill them (right out the breather line), adding the extra 1/4-1/2 quart might make up for the Jeep not being on level ground.

 

I'd also try running it without the driveshafts in, or with the t-case in neutral to see if the noise changes, or goes away.

 

T-case

Even putting the T-case in neutral doesn't completely remove that from potentially being the problem (bad T-case).

since the T-case is also an unknown, it could very likely be the problem (unless the T-case is not yet installed at this point).

Did you fill the T-case?

 

FWIW, A gear mismatch in the T-case (wrong year/pitch input gear, and or planetaries swapped in) makes a TON of scary noises.

 

 

 

Running a BA dry certainly could leave you with a noisy tranny, you could run it for a while and drain the fluid to see what's in it.

A self destructing tranny will likely have plenty of metal in it to let you know.

 

 

As far as the 21 vs 23 spline part,

all BA's that I've dealt with (2wd, or 4wd) were 21sp.

 

The 87 (XJ) & 89 (YJ) 4wd's, and the two that were converted were 88 (MJ) & 89 (MJ) 2wd's all = 21spline,

 

so if both tranny's were Peugeot BA 10-5's the T-case should have slid on the end of the 2wd tranny (assuming the tailhousing is removed so it doesn't interfere).

[BORDENCOMANCHE]

I kept the 2wd clutch and pressure plate on there when I put the new tranny/t-case unit on as a whole, which came with an unkown condition throw out bearing. I will try the old throw out bearing, I will drain the tranny, maybe take it apart.

 

Here are some of the things I noticed about the tranny, it works just fine, with the exception of hard shifting sometimes, it will fight to let go of reverse. 2nd gear start works just fine to. I ran it with the drive shafts off and had the same noise.

 

will climbing under the truck with a stethascope tell me exactly where the noise is coming from??? Accurately?

[BORDENCOMANCHE]

The noise is non-existant with the clutch pushed in.

[aemsee]

does the noise change when you select a different gear? change as you accel and decel? maybe almost go away in 4th? how long did the truck run without trans fluid in it? before doing the bearing swap, I would drain the trans and look for metal in the fluid. Instead of pushing the clutch pedal all the way in, push it just enough to load the TOB without disengaging the clutch.. Any change to the noise? Also, a TOB that "spins like a top" is probably shot. There is normally some drag from the grease in it.

[64 Cheyenne]

I just replaced the BA-10 in my 88 because of the same issue,"noise coming from the tranny at idle, goes away when the clutch is pushed in". I felt that the BA-10 was on its way out, it did shift OK though. Only differences in my situation are : I replaced the tranny with another BA-10, didn't want to fear a used internal slave failing, so I replaced the slave/throw out assy with a new one. I used the original clutch and pressure plate (money issue) put it all back together, the "noise" is back, but not as bad as with the first tranny. I think the clutch disk is warped or something. My final fix? Picked up an AX-15 last weekend, got the linkages, mount, crossmember, master slave throwout assy (internal), guy even threw in the 231 for free, he said it "popped out of gear" in low range, I think because it was wrecked, it threw the linkages out of adjustment. All for $125 bucks. :banana:

For now, I'm just going to run the Goat till it dies, keep the AX in "stock", buy a NEW clutch, and slave assy for it for when it's needed.

Sorry for going off topic but my point is that my problem didn't go away with a new throwout assy, I think either both trannys had bad mainshaft input support bearings or the clutch disk is the culprit, because I used the same one on both trannys.

[JeepcoMJ]

I just replaced the BA-10 in my 88 because of the same issue,"noise coming from the tranny at idle, goes away when the clutch is pushed in". I felt that the BA-10 was on its way out, it did shift OK though. Only differences in my situation are : I replaced the tranny with another BA-10, didn't want to fear a used internal slave failing, so I replaced the slave/throw out assy with a new one. I used the original clutch and pressure plate (money issue) put it all back together, the "noise" is back, but not as bad as with the first tranny. I think the clutch disk is warped or something. My final fix? Picked up an AX-15 last weekend, got the linkages, mount, crossmember, master slave throwout assy (internal), guy even threw in the 231 for free, he said it "popped out of gear" in low range, I think because it was wrecked, it threw the linkages out of adjustment. All for $125 bucks. :banana:

For now, I'm just going to run the Goat till it dies, keep the AX in "stock", buy a NEW clutch, and slave assy for it for when it's needed.

Sorry for going off topic but my point is that my problem didn't go away with a new throwout assy, I think either both trannys had bad mainshaft input support bearings or the clutch disk is the culprit, because I used the same one on both trannys.

 

that noise is the throwout bearing on the internal slave having failed, OR you had a bad pilot bushing...

[64 Cheyenne]

I hate to think bad pilot bushing, when I went to put in the replacement tranny, I did look at the pilot bushing, looked OK. But I guess this goes to show that when I got concerned about having to pull the tranny again, replaced the slave TOB assy I dropped the ball, should have replaced the pilot just because matter of fact, oh well, live and learn, I guarantee, pilot bushings will always be replaced in the future if they are in doubt.

Thanks for the insight JeepcoMJ. :cheers: