89 Manche runs 30 sec, sputters, then dies

[ocean]

Hello I've lurked on the forum until the purchase of my manche went through. I'm Jason from Colorado, my wife and I live near Glenwood Springs.

 

:help:

SO I looked for the Ballast resistor. No dice. I looked all over the driver side fender and near the radiator housing, underneath radiator overflow, underneath windshield wiper fluid resevoir, on the drivers side, nada.

 

Cursory check of firewall reveals nothing. Sale date of the vehicle was 1/89. would the balast resistor be anywhere else? I've followed wires near the headlight and looked through the horn area and around the airintake but I can't find anything resembling a 3 inch long porcelain block with the two wires attached to either end.

 

The truck does run but it does the proverbial 30 second sputter die thing. I did get it to go several hundred yards down the road before it did this, left it in second with the key in on position and the trucked lugged and sputtered enough that I was able to get it out of the owners driveway and into the nearby ace hardware parking lot.

 

Does take a while to crank, say 6-8 turn when it decides if it will or won't start. PO has replaced lots of things trying to find problem until he decided to sell it to me, rust free, for 350.00. Things appearing to be new include alternator, 02 sensor, etc.

The truck has 231xxx... Any help would be extremely appreciated... I'm going to look through my Hayne's manual again so I can verify sensor positions etc.

I love the jeep and want to fix it.

Thanks in advance

Jason

[Randy in Maine]

What do you get when you stick the fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail? Use a FI pressure guage good to 60 psi please.

[BLHTAZ]

The relay that is just above it on mine is a fan controller that I installed. This is the inner fender on the drivers side right by the ar filter box.

 

[carnuck]

Crank position sensor, TPS, CTS, wire connections. See if you still have spark. If so, then it's a fuel problem (shut down of pressure or computer gone south)

[project88mj]

:agree:

[Wildman]

This is a picture of the ballast resistor, it's located on the drivers side fender, just behind the air filter box, your looking for a heavy gauge orange wire w/black tracer.

 

 

Theres a good chance the PO removed the ballast resistor, you did mention that you have a '89, correct?? Causes, '87 did not have the resistor.

 

That's the first thing to check for the problems that your writing about.

 

From there, you need to get it some place and start checking other sensors, This is a good source for checking all the sensors on the Renix.

 

When you can, do check the fuel pressure at the rail, it should be around 31psi, from the hard starting and 30 seconds quit, it could be the fuel pump relay or the fuel pump itself.

[project88mj]

don't want to but... :hijack: ... for a moment....

 

is that a cone filter and how is it mounted :clapping:

[ocean]

Thanks for the pictures it helps. I have to get a fuel pump gauge. I thought Eagle and others said that the cpu going bad is rare?

This is a 89 Manche 2.5 2wd, IDK if that means the ballast resistor could be located somewhere else as the drivers side engine bay wheel well is filled with my radiator resevoir, windshield fluid resevoir, and power brake assembly. I looked around the power steering knuckle and its not there.

I have to acquire a fuel pressure gauge I guess, its amazing how a 350.00 truck grows in cost, but at least I will have a needed tool.

 

I will look on the firewall too in case it was placed there as it was on 87-early 88's right?

 

The folks on cherokee talk are saying I should check my CAT to see if its clogged.

 

Wiring/relay makes sense too. I have pics but I can't drag and drop here for some reason and it won't let me upload because of file size (more thannhappy to put them on if you can tell me how)

 

My engine bay has all of the electrical your pics show mounted on the pass side. All of my driverside wiring is related to headlight/TS indicator/horn.... I have no visible relays in this location.... Perhaps my vehicle is a unicorn or something with the wiring all on the other side of the vehicle.

 

Thanks guys

Jason- in New Castle, Colorado

 

I realy appreciate the technical advice and your mechanical knowledge and the speed of your replies.

[FxRacing282]

Thanks for the pictures it helps. I have to get a fuel pump gauge. I thought Eagle and others said that the cpu going bad is rare?

This is a 89 Manche 2.5 2wd, IDK if that means the ballast resistor could be located somewhere else as the drivers side engine bay wheel well is filled with my radiator resevoir, windshield fluid resevoir, and power brake assembly. I looked around the power steering knuckle and its not there.

I have to acquire a fuel pressure gauge I guess, its amazing how a 350.00 truck grows in cost, but at least I will have a needed tool.

 

I will look on the firewall too in case it was placed there as it was on 87-early 88's right?

 

The folks on cherokee talk are saying I should check my CAT to see if its clogged.

 

Wiring/relay makes sense too. I have pics but I can't drag and drop here for some reason and it won't let me upload because of file size (more thannhappy to put them on if you can tell me how)

 

My engine bay has all of the electrical your pics show mounted on the pass side. All of my driverside wiring is related to headlight/TS indicator/horn.... I have no visible relays in this location.... Perhaps my vehicle is a unicorn or something with the wiring all on the other side of the vehicle.

 

Thanks guys

Jason- in New Castle, Colorado

 

I realy appreciate the technical advice and your mechanical knowledge and the speed of your replies.

actually, now that i think of it, my clamaro had the same problem, and the cat was as see through as a rock. sometimes you can shake them and hear a rattle, but not always, if its not to hard then take it off and see how it runs. don't run it too long as you run a risk of damaging valve seats and bending valves. nothing to worry about if its for a little while. you should be able to see through a cat. if you can only see through part then take a long screw driver or something along those lines and start smalling it in there to get that crap out. put her back on, if emissions says no then get a cat, (kinda pricey for a real one not a look alike)

[ocean]

Oh, when I start it I can rev it just fine up to and past 3000. It idles fine. It runs strong for about thrirty seconds.... you know just enought so I get excited. The it starts to sputter, and it knocks, then dies.... Seems like the ballast problem but I agree could easily be the fuel relay too. I will try and go to NAPA tomorrow and get a new one... and a fuel pressure gauge too.

 

BTW the passenger side fender was struck at an unknown date and I so not know if this could be related, the tailight housing is loose.... But the ground for the fuel pump should be on the drivers side....since I can rev it fine when it starts (the battery is low BTW) it seems unlikely that a fuel pressure issue is present right?

 

The gas tank has a newer looking black plastic cover on it and the fuel filter is black, not sure if its OEM, and does not have any indicators for in/out.

 

Its seeme like that secondary system tries to take over and kills it... Is there a secondary system that will do this like EGR or something?

 

Thanks guys.... Anybody else on the western slope?

[FxRacing282]

ahh yes. maybe you have a vacuum leak? there is a black bottle in your bumper on the passenger side. take a look at it, inspect it, get your truck running and spray some engine starting fluid at it, if the idle goes up then you have a vacuum leak. but, i like the cat idea better. seems more likely. its not too often a pump dies after 30 seconds every time.

[ocean]

okay here is a try at photobucket... Here are some pics of my truck, hope it helps some...BTW my wife and I want to move back east to the smokies soon... way too expensive here!

 

Not sure if these will upload... hope it helps..... My jeep must be an 88 model year right? Guess I'll check the vin....

 

Could I run a hot wire from the battery, with a fuse, to test if the fuel pump is working properly, (also bypassing the ecu right?). If the truck starts and runs fine then it would be a ECU error...yes or no? Does the ground control the pump on this engine normally?

 

Just trying to think of a way to isolate systems.... Just tell me if its a scatterbrained idea.

 

Thanks Jason

[ocean]

Looking at the wiring diagram information I think it could be isolated to two areas.

 

Fuse link- if I have that-may have been replaced.

 

-or-

 

Fuel relay

 

How is the Balast resistor bypassed during startup mode?

 

what caused one of these to go is another issue for investigation

 

First I will start and verify that I have exhaust from tailpipe. If not, then it has to be the cat, or a combination of all of the above :ack: .

 

I'll let you know what I find

[project88mj]

what the heck is all that yellow crap under the hood did you try to make corn bread on your valve cover

[ocean]

no lol that is the flash on the camera :) it probably looks yellow from the oil all over the engine

[Wildman]

After I re-read this.......this morning........I see you have a '89 2.5. A lot of our responses are based on the 4.0, and that will be similar to your 2.5.

 

Your correct that the fuel pump ground is behind the left tail light.

 

But, then I notice that you said the battery was so-so???

 

Do you need to "jump" the battery to get the truck running???

 

With all the 'electronics' in the Renix system, the battery needs to be strong to "run" the truck. If your battery or alternator is bad, or going, or there is a loose wire/connection between the two, this could be causing your problem. Even the corroded/loose connections at the battery posts could be causing this.

 

So........from the pictures you posted.........Nice find for the price you paid :thumbsup:

 

Now, we just need to get you up and running so you can enjoy your fine MJ :D

[ocean]

Thanks Wildman

 

Yeah I have a bit of work to do but I have a friends wrecked 95 cherokee donor to give me 4x4 and a host of other parts. Aside from that I have alot of cleaning to do onthe truck as the PO was not very tidy :ack:

 

The battery is strong enough to start it. Like I said it'll run up and idle fine but only for that short amount of time.. Thats why i'm so stuck on some secondary system jacking up, but it could as easily be any compnent of the renix, loose wires, shorts, including the battery.

 

The PO was fastidious about his maintenance, and the alternator is new (though it could still be bad). The underside is pretty clean and I need to take a closer look at all of the wiring. In case your wondering the PDC had a plastic cover on it, I pulled it to show the relays.

 

I was thinking that a temporary bypass might be in order, at least until I can get it more isolated, it could let me know that its the TPS, fuel relay, or whatever. Then I could fix it for real, its always fun chasing down this sort of stuff and the results are worth it.

 

Thanks again, appreciate your input!

[Eagle]

If it has enough fuel pressure to start, the fuel pump works. It sounds like the ballast resistor. Simple test -- hot wire the fuel pump and see if it will run more than 30 seconds.

[mvusse]

Or run a jumper wire across the resistor?

[Randy in Maine]

After you ensure that the fuel pump is actually pumping adequate fuel you will be half way there.

 

The thing about fuel pumps is they only pump volumes of fuel, they do not make pressure in the fuel rails. There is a fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail (with an attached vacuum line) which is what gives you the pressure you need.

 

They do not commonly die (but do sometimes), so plug in your fuel pressure gauge into the test port, make sure it is meeting the spec and move on....

[Pete M]

Changed the fuel filter lately?

[Wildman]

Randy in Maine brings up a good point.........I aways forget the stupid fuel pressure regulator :doh:

 

This could be your case..........again, do a pressure check at the fuel rail, and that will point you into a direction for the repair.

 

And just for giggles............Here's the Mr. Lunghd How-to on testing the fuel pressure system :brows:

 

If you don't want to spent $$$ on the fuel pressure tester, your parts store, like Advance, or what ever has a 'leave a deposit' on the tool, and use it, return it for a full refund :yes: Great way to go for that once in a life time tool use.

[Sugarfoot]

I'm kind with Wildman on this. The PO put a new alternator on or more than likely a rebuilt one on. So at some point the battery was drained more than likely. It takes very little voltage on a high mileage motor to turn it over. But not enough to keep a hot enough spark and the electronics going. The battery may be just too weak, can't take a charge, but has enough to turn over but not up enough to move enough current around. With that much oil blowing by and all over it, your motor is pretty loose. Might turnover with a couple of D cell batteries to the starter LOL Any chance you can borrow someone's better/newer battery for 30 minutes?

 

Got to have juice and gas, I think you have gas. Is it good gas? You say it sputters? any popping? water in the gas? Sure its good fresh fuel? You might pull the induction hose off the throttle body, get it to start, when it wants to die pour a little gas down the throttle. Please use a small amount of fresh gas in an 8 oz tin can with about an inch or two of gas in it when trying this. A trickle is best and goes a long way. A steady hand is important. Before starting take a long screwdriver or tool and wedge the throttle butterfly open not allowing it to close and choke. 2 or 3 small pours and she stays running answers your fuel question. Do not flood. Do not light your hair on fire. If so throw can away from you.

 

Also check the two wires to the fuel pump at the tank, look close. Check for a short between them specifically as one laying on top of the other.

 

After it starts, runs for 20 seconds, then dies. Will it just keep doing that over and over for say 10 times in a row?

 

While some say a picture is worth a thousand words, hearing a motor run or turn over can be too.

 

I'm still sticky with the battery as the culprit. As it's newest hint of trouble was the replaced alternator.

 

James and Sugarfoot

[ocean]

well I agree that the battery is an issue, I will use my current DD to supply the voltage.

The fuel pump regulator is an item i examined in the renix fsm. I was leaning towards eagle's suggestion initially as it would tell me right off this is the deal or not by letting isolate where I have the issue.

 

I purchased a fuel relay and the wiring, fuses, and connectors I need to make this happen. Now I just need time and I won't have that for a few days; fri,sat,sun,mon I work 16.5 hours at two seperate jobs- essentially I get no sleep until Monday night.

 

As far as the Ballast resistor goes, there is just not one I can find and I spent about four hours under the hood and undeer the car looking for it.

The thirty second thing seems to indicate that the intial start mode is no longer running the same way through the ECM and is running through a secondary systerm that is interfering with the fuel reaching the engine.

 

So it starts and I can rev it high as a kite. Then after approx. thrity seconds the rpms fall as it sputters, and they continue to fall until it dies.

It should be mentioned that when I was driving it down that road and it died that I left it in gear and the engine attempted to continue to run but was not getting air/spark/fuel.... so it lugged it, getting just a spurt of fuel on occasion, just enough for it to lug a little farther say a hundred yards into the parking lot.

Based on the control systems it seems fuel is most likely as the truck ran fine initially in startup mode, when it changes over to run-mode is when things seem to be not woking.....

I know its got air flow, so that goes to the bottom of the list. It's got spark. So I will work backwards from fuel relay to, hotwiring, to tps, to fuel regulator, to tedious wire inspections all over the truck until the truck runs fine again.

I like Randy's suggestion to as it would obviously affect the ability of the system to deliver fuel.

Thanks! I let you know what I find out

Jason :thumbsup:

[Pete M]

The transition from direct-current to current-through-the-ballast-resistor usually happens 1-2 seconds after startup.