Trailering MJ, tow dolly

[justinquilliam]

it doesnt matter what position your transfer case is in everything in your transmission turns if the rear wheels turn. either put it on a trailer or disconnect the drive shaft, even leaving it and wiring it up tight so the fluid won't leak will work. but going that great a distance will definatley ruin something, especially if you plan on goin over 30mph.

[Motion Offroad]

it doesnt matter what position your transfer case is in everything in your transmission turns if the rear wheels turn.

Not true.

[mvusse]

Ok, so trailer it is. Thanks everyone. Mvusse, face it, we're screwed on gas :D

 

Not quite. I just did a test, and yes, transfer case in neutral does make the front driveshaft spin when the rear is spinning, but:

 

If you put the transfer case in neutral WITHOUT running the engine, there is no vacuum to engage the front axle, so it should be fine.

 

In any case, I found an inexpensive universal tow bar on Ebay I'm going to try to get. Flat tow it without a dolly or trailer.Still screwed on gas, just not as bad as it would be with the added 2000 pounds of a trailer.

 

And according to my manual. it is an acceptable way to tow my Comanche like this.

 

So you're going to be there?

 

Awesome!

 

When we get closer to July we need to discuss a time and place to meet up in Cambridge. I think someone from south of Columbus or so might also be going, maybe we can meet up with him in Columbus or some place as well.

 

I guess this should have been in the other thread. :oops:

[chicofuentes0224]

I guess this should have been in the other thread.

 

I believe you changing the subject would be refered to as a "thread highjack", however sir since you started this post I believe you have the legal right to change the subject WHENEVER THE @#$% YOU WANT! :D Anyway, don't worry, everybody is too busy fighting right now to take notice to what we are talking about. :rotfl2:

Anyway, yeah meeting up sounds great let's chit-chat closer to July.

[chicofuentes0224]

You know MV, now that our problem has been resolved, I know what I'm gonna do. First we start by hijacking a large car carrier. Preferably one from Porshe or BMW, that is covered (so the paint on our Comanches don't get scratched in freak hail storms). Then I'll load up in Philly and pick up as many club members as possible and high tail it across country. Not only that but we'll higher an older gentleman with a big fat mustache to navigate a 1977 Firebird to take slack from the highway patrol as we mosey on down to the BADLANDS! And we'll videotape the whole adventure and sell it to one of the big movie studios like Fox Searchlight. Man, it'll be so original. We'll make millions. And then we can retire and just restore Comanches full time just for the fun of it :D

 

 

Ok, I'm gonna go mow the lawn now :oops:

[JeepcoMJ]

take out the driveshaft, tape a bottle over the output housing of the tranny, or even just tape a spare yoke in the rear

 

rent the car dolly, and do that. i would NOT tow anything that far with the driveshaft for the wheels that are on the ground, in the vehicle. very unsafe.

[mvusse]

Okay, new plan (plan e?).

 

Get the tow bar and magnetic trailer lights . Put the brackets on and do a tow test make sure everything works.

 

Put everything in the back of the Suburban.

 

Drive the MJ to Attica.

 

IF I break down on the way there/back/while playing I call my 17 year old to get her behind in the Suburban and come get me.

 

My main concerns are the fuel pump, since it's getting loud and breaking drive line parts from playing too hard.

 

Plan F is like plan E, but take tow bar and stuff with me in the Comanche. That way, if needed, I could tow Chico if he breaks down on the way. We'd just have to put my bumper (with the brackets) on his truck.

[chicofuentes0224]

I love it when a plan comes together! (Big lit cigar in mouth)

[LEAD_NOT_FOLLOW]

I just did a test, and yes, transfer case in neutral does make the front driveshaft spin when the rear is spinning

It's not because of your TC. It will still spin if a) you have a non-CAD axle or B) if your CAD is not functioning properly and it's locked the stub shaft to the main shaft. This will only cause your driveshaft to spin simply because your tires are moving as well.

 

Since nobody here seems to believe me I took the liberty to PROOVE myself without a doubt to show you all.

 

1) When the Transfer Case in in (N) the rear output (rear driveshaft) or the front output (front driveshaft) does NOT turn. Thus stating that even with the front tires off the ground on a tow dolly the rear wheels do NOT have to be off the ground. Yes the rear driveshaft will continue to spin but it is simply because the wheels are turning. The transfer case is "free spooling" and it does not also turn the front driveshaft.

 

I've made a movie to prove it. You can see it by clicking the following link.

 

http://www.jeeptv.com/video/5494

 

2) The tranny even if in drive will not turn the TC outputs (front or rear) if the TC in in (N). It also proves that with the tranny in a gear (manual) or in park (auto) that their is NO CONNECTION between the 2.

 

I've made a move to prove this also. You can see it by clicking the following link.

 

http://www.jeeptv.com/video/5492

 

So once again to state the FACTS. You do not have to have your rear wheels off the ground if you tow dolly. Just because your rear tires are rolling does not mean your front tires have to turn as well. I've shown this by the above video's.

 

So once again I stand by everything I've stated prior in this post. I'm not trying to be an a$$; I just hate mis-information.

 

I've flat towed my MJ well over 2000 miles by what I stated prior and have also tow-dolly'd well over 1000 miles by what I stated prior WITHOUT ISSUES.

 

Disclaimer: I apologize for the poor video skills. I was trying to video, talk, and demonstrate all by myself.

[Wildman]

Wow :eek: 3 pages on towing.

 

I've towed with car hauler, tow dolly and flat towed with tow bar.

 

Car hauler for long (350+ miles) and not knowing what shape the MJ was in, IE: Tire condition, Tow dolly for shorter hauls (200 miles) and I take off the rear drive shaft, and I don't plug the t-case output. Shorter hauls, tow bar, like around town, short 30-40 mile hauls.

 

I prefer the tow dolly, better on gas, easier on the truck going and hauling back, except for the bouncing around when it's not loaded.

 

If your rent from u-haul, pay the $5 insurance, it covers the tow dolly, AND the vehicle your towing, yea, cheep insurance.

 

If you getting a tow bar, Harbor Fright has them for like $29 on sale, BUT, you need to make up your own safety chains. And I go tow vehicle to towed vehicle with the chains, not just to the bar. Also, you need to add, or make some GOOD frame tie-ins on the towed vehicle, not just to the bumper, them couple of small screws will come out, when you turn, and I know :roll: I take the bumper off, and re drilled the holes on the frame cross member to put grade 8, 1/2" bolts into the mount bracket of the tow bar. And yes the cross member will bend too.

 

And yes, you will need mag lights if you flat tow, or tie in your tow vehicle lights to the towed one, did this before too. You don't need to add lights if you use a tow dolly, but on a long haul.....not a bad idea.

 

Oh, and have fun in the BADLANDS!!!!

 

And that's my 2 cents :D

 

 

:popcorn:

Nice video :D You said it best, the T-case in neutral is "FREE SPOOLING"

[mvusse]

I just did a test, and yes, transfer case in neutral does make the front driveshaft spin when the rear is spinning

It's not because of your TC. It will still spin if a) you have a non-CAD axle or B) if your CAD is not functioning properly and it's locked the stub shaft to the main shaft. This will only cause your driveshaft to spin simply because your tires are moving as well.

 

I did the test with the engine off, transmission in park, transfer case in neutral, rear wheels off the ground (on jack stands).

 

When I spin the rear drive shaft by hand, the front drive shaft also spun.

 

When my daughter tried to held the front drive shaft to keep it from turning, I could not spin the rear drive shaft.

 

Transfer case in neutral on my MJ with Command-Trac definitely has rear drive shaft connected to the front drive shaft. It does disconnect the transfer case input shaft, effectively uncoupling it from the transmission.

 

Are you telling my my transfer case is broken? It works as it should in 2H, 4H and 4L.

 

But if you do not start the vehicle after the transfer case is taken out of 2H, the front axle will stay disconnected, as there is no vacuum to engage the disco.

 

So I agree you can tow it with the rear wheels on the ground.

[Eagle]

I did the test with the engine off, transmission in park, transfer case in neutral, rear wheels off the ground (on jack stands).

 

When I spin the rear drive shaft by hand, the front drive shaft also spun.

 

When my daughter tried to held the front drive shaft to keep it from turning, I could not spin the rear drive shaft.

 

Transfer case in neutral on my MJ with Command-Trac definitely has rear drive shaft connected to the front drive shaft. It does disconnect the transfer case input shaft, effectively uncoupling it from the transmission.

 

Are you telling my my transfer case is broken? It works as it should in 2H, 4H and 4L.

No, your t-case is not broken, the problem is the Lead_Not_Follow is confusing a connection from the transmission to the transfer case with what we're really talking about. The Neutral position on the 231 transfer case disengages the transfer case from the transmission, so you can do whatever you want with the engine and tranny ... but it locks the front and rear driveshafts together. What various others have mentioned is that you can get away with towing that way because the front axle disconnect allows the front wheels to turn at different speeds. But the fact remains that both driveshafts will be spinning the whole way you tow, and if for some unforeseen reason there's a problem with the axle disconnect -- well, then there's a problem.

 

It's so simple to just pull the driveshaft and clamp a cut-off soda bottle over it, I don't see why all the fuss to avoid doing it right.

[jaekl]

While we are on the subject, I have a question. You see the highlight of work was to see how early I could turn the engine off and coast into my parking space, (You know like flat towing) I know I'm talking short distance at slow speed. Although I was known to do it at 40+mph and over half mile.

I've never had the pleasure of taking a TC apart, but what is going on in there? Due to the low range there can't be a straight thru shaft. I'm picturing that this transmission path is designed to be driven by the input shaft and has possible issues when driven by the output shafts. Anybody know of a good exploded view?

For you guys (or anyone) that experience the front and rear axles locking together, another question. Are the front and rear driveshafts locked when in 4H and 4L (1986 Command Trac)? 50/50 torque split? Of course I still haven't figure out how they vary the torque split these days.

[Eagle]

The '86 Command-Trac was the NP207, which was very similar to the NP231 but not as strong, and the low-range ratio was 2.6x instead of 2.7x. Low range 4WD is locked, 50/50 torque distribution.

 

The 242 uses a differential to allow full-time use in 4WD. That means the torque distribution is variable, not constant.

[LEAD_NOT_FOLLOW]

No, your t-case is not broken, the problem is the Lead_Not_Follow is confusing a connection from the transmission to the transfer case with what we're really talking about. The Neutral position on the 231 transfer case disengages the transfer case from the transmission, so you can do whatever you want with the engine and tranny ... but it locks the front and rear driveshafts together. What various others have mentioned is that you can get away with towing that way because the front axle disconnect allows the front wheels to turn at different speeds. But the fact remains that both driveshafts will be spinning the whole way you tow, and if for some unforeseen reason there's a problem with the axle disconnect -- well, then there's a problem.

 

YOU'RE WRONG!

 

Here I've made another video that is as clear as day proving that YOU'RE WRONG!

 

http://www.jeeptv.com/video/5531

 

The front and rear driveshafts are NOT locked together when the TC in in (N). Simple as that! Watch the above video; as it proves that they are not locked together. Also I've disproved everything else thats been stated incorrectly in this thread in the above 2 video's. Did you watch those?!?

 

In the above video I am turning the rear driveshaft as it would be as it was rolling down the road; keep a close eye as to what the front out (front driveshaft does while I turn the rear when the TC in in (N). I'd really like for you to tell me what it's doing please...

 

I have to ask, with your logic what is the purpose of the CAD than? Why did they even design it if as you say the driveshaft will spin anyways? It's purpose is to keep the driveshaft from spining while driving down the road. If as you say the 2 are locked together than why with the CAD undone does the driveshaft not spin?

 

And to mvusse...

 

I'm going to assume that you did not have your TC in (N) fully. As shown above in the video I've proved that they are not connected; so the only way the front still spun is that you had your TC in 4wd (either high or low).

[mvusse]

If the transfer case was not in neutral I would not have been able to spin the drive shaft, as the transmission was in park.

 

And for some reason I can't view your videos. The web site gives me an error instead:

Flex Error #1001: Digest mismatch with RSL framework_3.0.189825.swf. Redeploy the matching RSL or relink your application with the matching library.

[mjstiltheydie]

Lead_not_follow

 

I am curious as to why my front drive shaft also spins when the rear drive shaft is turned (tranny in gear and transfercase in neutral). I would like to ask you to try something with the XJ or MJ in the second video. Try putting the tranny in park and transfercase in neutral and then raise a rear tire (or both if locked) and see if your front driveshaft will spin. Mine sure does and has since I got new. Mine is not a J model transfercase though. I thought they worked the same but maybe not.

[mjstiltheydie]

Sorry, left out the important part. Spin the rear tire.

[Pete M]

Holy cow you guys. :roll:

 

 

Just to add more to this: My 86 owner's manual says that command trac vehicles require "minor transfercase modifications" before recreational (flat) towing. This would apply to the NP-207 t-case. It doesn't say what the mods are, only that you should go see the dealership about it.

 

After you've done those mods, the procedure for preparing for flat towing is (I've summed it up in places):

 

--------------------------------------------------------

1-With the vehicle moving slowly, shift the trans into neutral.

2-Shift the transfer case into the neutral position

3-turn off the ignition key

4-shift the trans back into park/gear

5-attach towbar

 

NOTE: Stop every 200 miles, and with the transfercase still in Neutral, start the engine and put the trans into drive and operate at a fast idle in order to circulate oil in the transfercase.

 

And the part I found most interesting:

 

If the vehicle is to be towed with just the front or rear tires off the ground, the speed should be limited to 30 mph and for no more than 15 miles. Then it says to shift the trans into gear and the t-case into neutral to do that.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

 

It goes on for a few more pages and has drawings and everything. :D I'd be interested in what the later year owners manuals state for the NP-231.

[mvusse]

From my 87 manual, pages 118 and 119:

 

Recreational Towing (Behind Motorhome, etc.)

(shows a picture of a Comanche with a tow bar)

 

CAUTION: It is necessary to follow these steps to be certain that the transfer case is fully in N (Neutral) and that the axle is completely disengaged before recreational towing to prevent damage to internal parts.

 

1. Shift transfer case to 2H

2. Drive vehicle 10ft forward and 10ft rearward

3. Shift transmission to neutral

4. Turn off the engine with the ignition key in the unlocked off position

5. Shift transfer case lever from 2H to N position

6. Shift automatic transmission into Park

7. Attach vehicle to the tow vehicle with tow bar

 

It then goes on to Towing A Disabled Vehicle (behind tow truck).

 

No mention of distance or speed limitations.

[Pete M]

Does it give directions for using a tow dolly? (meaning that the rear tires are touching the ground)

[mvusse]

Only if the vehicle is disabled and is to be towed with either front or rear wheels off the ground by a tow truck. Basically maximum speed is 30 mph, max distance is 15 miles. Do not disconnect rear prop shaft as fluid will leak out and damage internal parts.

 

Ignition key off, automatic transmission in Park, transfer case in Neutral.

 

The manual says if the vehicle is locked or the transfer case can not be shifter to Neutral for any reason to put the rear wheel on a dolly, and raise the front wheels.

 

However, it says to hook up a chain to the front axle on the right side, and the frame on the left side, so the front wheels are free to spin.

 

Towing the vehicle on a dolly should technically be possible if you make sure the front axle is disengaged, but the manual has no information about it.

[Pete M]

Only if the vehicle is disabled and is to be towed with either front or rear wheels off the ground by a tow truck. Basically maximum speed is 30 mph, max distance is 15 miles. Do not disconnect rear prop shaft as fluid will leak out and damage internal parts.

 

 

And so if I ever need to pull with a tow dolly, you can be sure I'm unbolting the rear shaft and strapping it securely up under the truck (except for my 88, which has a later model sealed t-case and so I can just yank the driveshaft and stow it in the bed).

 

I'm betting the root of all this evil is that the t-case bearings get insufficient oil when the truck is being dragged along with the rear tires on the ground.

[mjstiltheydie]

Pete

 

I have read somewhere that the transmission does not get enough lubrication and that is why it is in park or in gear and transfercase in neutral. But since when flat towing it says to do the same as a tow truck, I would be lead to believe that the front differencial spinning twice as fast as it would be if flat towed would be the reason for 30 mph limit and 15 mile limitation. I could be wrong though, I am definitely not a mechanincal engineer. Anyhow, I am with you. I disconnect the driveshaft and strap it up. No sense risking an expensive repair for such an easy task.

 

Bruce

[Eagle]

Well, you guys made me go out and get dirty. It isn't often you whippersnappers get me doubting what I know I know, but my worthy opponent with his videos (which I can't see -- I'm on a dial-up) left me wondering.

 

My '88 MJ doesn't have the original tranny or transfer case, so that would not have been a fair test. My '88 XJ, however, I bought new ... so I know it has the original tranny and the original transfer case. So I went out this afternoon, put the transfer case in neutral, put the transmission in first gear, jacked up the rear wheels and tried to turn them.

 

Verified: The front and rear driveshafts ARE locked together. Further, this exercise reminded me that the ONLY way to get the transfer case from 2-Hi to Neutral is by first going to 4-Hi -- and that engages the front axle disconnect. This is why the owners manual says to tow it with the wheels off the ground, or else flat tow it with all four wheels ON the ground.

 

Now -- why the discrepancy? I don't think Lead_Not_Follow is deliberately trying to mislead us. Since I can't view the videos, I don't know which of his three vehicles he used for the test ... nor do I know if any of his three is in factory configuration. But I do know that the XJ I just looked at is in factory configuration. In one of my initial posts in this thread, I said that I believe Chrysler changed the 231 so that Neutral does not lock the two driveshafts. I thought that happened around '93 or '94, but in thinking about it, it makes more sense that they would have done so in 1991 -- the year they stopped using the front axle disconnect. So my guess is that L_N_F was not looking at an '88 transfer case. But the guy asking the question has an '88. Which points up the fact that Jeeps are NOT all the same, not even within the relatively short span of the MJ, and it's never safe to generalize that what works for me MUST work for everyone.

 

I stand by my opinion that you cannot tow an '88 on a dolly with the transfer case in Neutral. You could leave it in 2WD, but that would probably chew up some bearings. The safest course is still to remove the rear driveshaft and cap the transfer case tailshaft with a cut-off soda bottle.