H4 Headlights

[schardein]

29 minutes ago, gogmorgo said:

I’m going to throw my two cents in and say that after two years of trying to make e-codes work for me on my ZJ, they’re going away. Going back to stock housings. The e-codes are no good at all for where I’m driving.

The problem is the cutoff on the low beams. Unless you live somewhere with tons of light pollution you can’t see anything outside the cutoffs. I don’t even catch eye shine outside the beams which is a pretty big problem. There’s a big bright spot on the road ahead of you but it’s not far enough ahead to be useful and it just destroys any semblance of night vision.

The high beams are actually quite good, they put a lot of light out a long way down the road, but that makes the low-beam issue worse. Not only do you need to dim them much earlier for oncoming traffic, get driving in snow, fog, even rain from the right direction, and now you can’t run the high beams at all because of the reflection back at your face, and now you’re stuck with low beams that don’t illuminate enough of the road to see. It’s even worse if you add in dips, hills, and corners, because now you need light going up to see the road on the hill, and there just isn’t any.

I can definitely tell they reduce glare for oncoming traffic or if I’m following someone, which is nice enough I guess, but not being able to see where I’m going is a pretty high price to pay.

 

The DOT is a less focussed light that scatters more. They’re definitely dimmer, and glare is worse for oncoming traffic (aim them properly and it’s less of an issue), but they at least put out light where you need it. I’d much prefer to dimly see where I need to than very clearly see where I don’t.

While I can appreciate what you are saying, I haven't had this experience.  And I live in the country with long stretches of winding country roads with little light pollution.  Of course this is in a CJ7 with the round headlights, I have no experience with the E-codes in my XJ or MJ.  Both of them I run Sylvania Xtravision headlights, because I've found several pairs cheap in the junkyard.  I don't run any lights except my headlights on my CJ, but on my XJ and MJ, I have Hella 550 driving lights mounted where the original fog lights go.  I aim my driving lights to be just past the low beams, a little further out.  This way I have 3 options, low beam, low beam with driving lights, and high beam.

[gogmorgo]

49 minutes ago, schardein said:

While I can appreciate what you are saying, I haven't had this experience.  And I live in the country with long stretches of winding country roads with little light pollution.  Of course this is in a CJ7 with the round headlights, I have no experience with the E-codes in my XJ or MJ.  Both of them I run Sylvania Xtravision headlights, because I've found several pairs cheap in the junkyard.  I don't run any lights except my headlights on my CJ, but on my XJ and MJ, I have Hella 550 driving lights mounted where the original fog lights go.  I aim my driving lights to be just past the low beams, a little further out.  This way I have 3 options, low beam, low beam with driving lights, and high beam.

I don’t want to argue with your perspective because I really haven’t spent much time East of I-29, but there are definitely differing scales of light pollution. 

The pin is your profile location. I grew up driving in the blue circle and now am mostly driving in the yellow. There’s a very noticeable difference when I drive into brighter areas that are similar to what I see around your location.

I also see that most people recommending e-codes (or complaining about DOTs) tend to live in Europe, Eastern North America, or the urban west coast, all of which look pretty bad on the light pollution map. I suppose it could simply be a case of less voices in less populated areas, but it’s still a pretty clear divide. The few rural voices I’ve heard tend to agree with me that sealed beams and a relay harness are more than adequate, other than the handful of people who threw a leveling lift on their truck without aiming their lights back down, and have concluded that they now NEED a massive LED bar just to see down the road... but that’s a whole other argument.

I mean, I wanted the ecodes to work. The high beams really are that good. Initially I aimed them with tape lines, moved them around a bit after that to try to make things better without getting flashed, but that didn’t really help. This summer I aimed them with an actual headlight aiming tool, and it finally solved the glare issue for oncoming traffic, but now the lights are aimed so low that I can’t see much.

I can appreciate using other lights can help fill in the gaps, and I’m pretty sure that’s the way the ecodes were intended to be set up, to work alongside fog and driving lights compared to a more multi-tool approach with the DOTs. But I’ve got to point out the way you have your driving lights set up is illegal in most jurisdictions, because they are only supposed to come on when the high beams are on. And I don’t think fog lights alone are going to be enough to make up for the inadequacies of the low beams, and I don’t really want to be adding extra lights and switches to my fairly rare base ZJ.

 

And yes, the xtravision sealed beams on my MJ with the relay harness are basically the best I’ve driven on so far out here. As long as they’re kept clean, that is. Enough light to see but not so much you’re destroying your own night vision.
I unfortunately couldn’t find an h4 DOT housing for my zj, or I would’ve tried that instead of going back to factory. I’ll have to try out the autopal on my MJ though once I’ve got a relay harness figured out that plays nicely with the DRL.

 

[schardein]

4 hours ago, gogmorgo said:

 

The next time I drive my CJ at night, I'm going to look at it with a more critical eye.  The current lights have been in there for 4? years or so.  I do recall aiming them, then finding I had a stripped adjuster, replacing that, more aiming, test drives, to get it where I thought it was right.

 

I've experienced a similar problem to what you described on my Silverado.  I replaced the low beam lights with HID bulbs, mainly because I got them more or less for free in a big used parts purchase.  Amazingly bright, but I had to adjust them way down to avoid blinding other drivers, which really limits their potential range.  Several adjustments got me to a compromise of not blinding people and still having decent range, which is way below their full potential.

 

As for light pollution, I've not given it much thought.  I've travelled a little bit and spent time in some places where there was no electricity for many grid squares (either because it was never there, or had been knocked out) and driven through them with headlights, blackout drive lights (like driving with a candle on your bumper), and with no lights but using night vision or thermal imagers.  I used to check the phases of the moon before we went out because that would have a big effect.

[89 MJ]

Here is what I am thinking of getting. 

https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-003427811-132mm-High-Headlamp/dp/B001G72VIK/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=hella+h4+housing&qid=1606422270&sr=8-2

 

https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-H4-100-80W-Wattage/dp/B000COBLKW/ref=pd_aw_fbt_2/135-1980848-6788219?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000COBLKW&pd_rd_r=d3c19bed-3f12-460a-8129-59f8ca61e48b&pd_rd_w=ogMTC&pd_rd_wg=okB75&pf_rd_p=8ad921d8-8b3b-4c8e-be01-c425a146feba&pf_rd_r=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T&psc=1&refRID=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T

 

https://www.amazon.com/Headlight-Relay-Wiring-Harness-Ceramic/dp/B00H5JFHR0/ref=pd_aw_fbt_3/135-1980848-6788219?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00H5JFHR0&pd_rd_r=d3c19bed-3f12-460a-8129-59f8ca61e48b&pd_rd_w=ogMTC&pd_rd_wg=okB75&pf_rd_p=8ad921d8-8b3b-4c8e-be01-c425a146feba&pf_rd_r=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T&psc=1&refRID=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T

[89 MJ]

11 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

Here is what I am thinking of getting. 

https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-003427811-132mm-High-Headlamp/dp/B001G72VIK/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=hella+h4+housing&qid=1606422270&sr=8-2

 

https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-H4-100-80W-Wattage/dp/B000COBLKW/ref=pd_aw_fbt_2/135-1980848-6788219?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000COBLKW&pd_rd_r=d3c19bed-3f12-460a-8129-59f8ca61e48b&pd_rd_w=ogMTC&pd_rd_wg=okB75&pf_rd_p=8ad921d8-8b3b-4c8e-be01-c425a146feba&pf_rd_r=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T&psc=1&refRID=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T

 

https://www.amazon.com/Headlight-Relay-Wiring-Harness-Ceramic/dp/B00H5JFHR0/ref=pd_aw_fbt_3/135-1980848-6788219?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00H5JFHR0&pd_rd_r=d3c19bed-3f12-460a-8129-59f8ca61e48b&pd_rd_w=ogMTC&pd_rd_wg=okB75&pf_rd_p=8ad921d8-8b3b-4c8e-be01-c425a146feba&pf_rd_r=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T&psc=1&refRID=H660H7BW1XJDBTGMF44T

Do these seems like they are worth the buy?

[Minuit]

Pretty sure the 0034..... kit is the one I have for my 91. No complaints from me.

[gogmorgo]

Probably inspired by this thread, I just picked up a set of these:

https://www.rampageproducts.com/rampage-5089927-headlight-conversion-kit
Choice mostly came down to being able to find them from a Canadian supplier. ECE headlights are fully legal up here, and unfortunately that’s what most of the H4 “upgrades” are... and I’ve already given my thoughts on those.

I’ll have to post an update/review once I’ve got them installed.

[89 MJ]

22 minutes ago, Minuit said:

Pretty sure the 0034..... kit is the one I have for my 91. No complaints from me.

Sounds good! Thank you!

 

4 minutes ago, gogmorgo said:

Probably inspired by this thread, I just picked up a set of these:

https://www.rampageproducts.com/rampage-5089927-headlight-conversion-kit
Choice mostly came down to being able to find them from a Canadian supplier. ECE headlights are fully legal up here, and unfortunately that’s what most of the H4 “upgrades” are... and I’ve already given my thoughts on those.

I’ll have to post an update/review once I’ve got them installed.

Nice. Looking forward to the review. 

[gogmorgo]

Just one thing to think about that I don’t know if it’s been brought up, you want to be careful increasing the bulb wattage.

I don’t know what the wire gauge is on the harness as it’s not listed in the ad. Going through the questions one guy said 14, another said 16. What I do know is the relays are only rated at 30A apiece, meaning there’s no way the harness can support the 80A the ad claims, as you’ll only ever be running through one relay at a time. Two 14awg wires will match the 30A limit, but if it’s 16awg you’re looking at a 20A limit (10A per bulb). You’ll be fine running 80W bulbs on it regardless, but 100W is the most I would want to run on a 16awg wire if you’re looking at upgrading again in the future. 100W is probably excessive on the road anyhow, but something to keep in mind.

[89 MJ]

3 hours ago, gogmorgo said:

Just one thing to think about that I don’t know if it’s been brought up, you want to be careful increasing the bulb wattage.

I don’t know what the wire gauge is on the harness as it’s not listed in the ad. Going through the questions one guy said 14, another said 16. What I do know is the relays are only rated at 30A apiece, meaning there’s no way the harness can support the 80A the ad claims, as you’ll only ever be running through one relay at a time. Two 14awg wires will match the 30A limit, but if it’s 16awg you’re looking at a 20A limit (10A per bulb). You’ll be fine running 80W bulbs on it regardless, but 100W is the most I would want to run on a 16awg wire if you’re looking at upgrading again in the future. 100W is probably excessive on the road anyhow, but something to keep in mind.

Thanks! 

[Minuit]

7 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

Thanks! 

Another thing to keep in mind is that cheap offshore wiring products frequently use, for example, "14" "Gauge" wire and not "14 American Wire Gauge" wire. That is a very important difference. Sometimes you'll see 16AWG or even less worth of copper (or sometimes even aluminum which has lower conductivity for a given size), but 14AWG worth of insulation to make it seem like the wires are bigger and can carry more current than reality. That's something I'd want to be aware of when buying a headlight harness off Amazon and planning to use high wattage bulbs with it.

[ghetdjc320]

1 hour ago, Minuit said:

Another thing to keep in mind is that cheap offshore wiring products frequently use, for example, "14" "Gauge" wire and not "14 American Wire Gauge" wire. That is a very important difference. Sometimes you'll see 16AWG or even less worth of copper (or sometimes even aluminum which has lower conductivity for a given size), but 14AWG worth of insulation to make it seem like the wires are bigger and can carry more current than reality. That's something I'd want to be aware of when buying a headlight harness off Amazon and planning to use high wattage bulbs with it.

 I’ve come across the same thing several times.

[89 MJ]

4 hours ago, Minuit said:

Another thing to keep in mind is that cheap offshore wiring products frequently use, for example, "14" "Gauge" wire and not "14 American Wire Gauge" wire. That is a very important difference. Sometimes you'll see 16AWG or even less worth of copper (or sometimes even aluminum which has lower conductivity for a given size), but 14AWG worth of insulation to make it seem like the wires are bigger and can carry more current than reality. That's something I'd want to be aware of when buying a headlight harness off Amazon and planning to use high wattage bulbs with it.

 

2 hours ago, ghetdjc320 said:

 I’ve come across the same thing several times.

Interesting. Thank you. I’ll be doing more research. 

[BeatCJ]

Or it may have insulation with a poorer ability to withstand temperature, and end up causing you problems when it degrades.

[gogmorgo]

3 minutes ago, BeatCJ said:

Or it may have insulation with a poorer ability to withstand temperature, and end up causing you problems when it degrades.

This is true, although the headlight wiring shouldn’t really be seeing a ton of heat unless you’re already exceeding it’s rated current.

 

Another advantage to good quality higher-capacity wire is durability. Larger wire is stronger, and takes longer to corrode through. Most of the marker light issues I see on our plow trucks are because the manufacturer of the lights we buy (because they’re cheap) elected to use 22awg or smaller wire for them. Arguably even the 22awg is overkill for the tiny load of the LEDs, but the tiny little wires break all the time, or if the insulation gets a little nick in it, the wire just dissolves. It’s a pretty extreme usage case for corrosion, but the trucks’ 14awg harnesses last.

But all of these harness concerns are part of why I choose to build my own harness rather than buy one. I know what materials are going into it and know it’ll be up to task.

[89 MJ]

1 hour ago, gogmorgo said:

This is true, although the headlight wiring shouldn’t really be seeing a ton of heat unless you’re already exceeding it’s rated current.

 

Another advantage to good quality higher-capacity wire is durability. Larger wire is stronger, and takes longer to corrode through. Most of the marker light issues I see on our plow trucks are because the manufacturer of the lights we buy (because they’re cheap) elected to use 22awg or smaller wire for them. Arguably even the 22awg is overkill for the tiny load of the LEDs, but the tiny little wires break all the time, or if the insulation gets a little nick in it, the wire just dissolves. It’s a pretty extreme usage case for corrosion, but the trucks’ 14awg harnesses last.

But all of these harness concerns are part of why I choose to build my own harness rather than buy one. I know what materials are going into it and know it’ll be up to task.

Interesting. I might just build a harness then. 

[gogmorgo]

It’s a pretty good way to get more familiar with automotive electrical work, setting up relay circuits to run accessories. It will quite likely cost you more than the manufactured relay harnesses, if that’s a concern, because the manufacturers are purchasing parts in giant quantities and you’re only buying one or two of everything, not to mention you’ll probably end up with way more wire than you need... I always do. 

[schardein]

When I added the H4 lights to my CJ, I added the relays and built the harness from scratch.  I used 14awg wire and ceramic terminal housings that plug into the light.  Something to be aware of if building your own harness, the male terminals on the headlight (or H4 bulb in this case) is not your standard 1/4" wide male tab.  It is wider, 5/16" wide and requires a Packard 59 series terminal (versus the more common Packard 56 terminals).  Part number is 2973216 to fit a 16/14 gauge wire.  These terminals use a specific crimper that crimps the terminal to the wire and to the insulation at the same time.  You can use standard automotive crimpers in a pinch, and some practice/experience helps, but you won't get the same results as the professional level crimpers.  

 

I don't remember what bulb I am currently using.  Way back in the day, I bought the highest watt rating bulb I could find (130w/90w, I think?), but I think I have the 100/80w in it now.  I used a standard 30a rated relay for the low beams, and a 40a rated relay for high.

[89 MJ]

18 minutes ago, schardein said:

When I added the H4 lights to my CJ, I added the relays and built the harness from scratch.  I used 14awg wire and ceramic terminal housings that plug into the light.  Something to be aware of if building your own harness, the male terminals on the headlight (or H4 bulb in this case) is not your standard 1/4" wide male tab.  It is wider, 5/16" wide and requires a Packard 59 series terminal (versus the more common Packard 56 terminals).  Part number is 2973216 to fit a 16/14 gauge wire.  These terminals use a specific crimper that crimps the terminal to the wire and to the insulation at the same time.  You can use standard automotive crimpers in a pinch, and some practice/experience helps, but you won't get the same results as the professional level crimpers.  

 

I don't remember what bulb I am currently using.  Way back in the day, I bought the highest watt rating bulb I could find (130w/90w, I think?), but I think I have the 100/80w in it now.  I used a standard 30a rated relay for the low beams, and a 40a rated relay for high.

Thank you! My dad has a lot of experience with wiring, so I don't think building a harness will be an issue.