Upgrades to make a true 1-ton

[Sir Sam]

Ya the thing about going with bigger axles is reduced clearance on the pumpkin. 
 

My Land Rover has a Salisbury rear end, basically a metric dana60. It’s a good axle, but the clearance at the pumpkin is worse than my MJ. 
 

 

[Sir Sam]

53 minutes ago, EUREKA said:

Thanks for the parts list and info.

What tie-rod ends would you have use, if they were available?

Oh and I forgot ball joints. Basically you need to buy WJ balljoints. 2 out of 4 are the same as the XJ, but either the upper or lower is different from XJ, I forget which right now. 

[derf]

53 minutes ago, Sir Sam said:

Ya the thing about going with bigger axles is reduced clearance on the pumpkin. 
 

My Land Rover has a Salisbury rear end, basically a metric dana60. It’s a good axle, but the clearance at the pumpkin is worse than my MJ. 
 

 

Bigger axle means you can run bigger tires to compensate for the differential.

[Sir Sam]

Right, which also require more clearance, cost more, weigh more, put more strain on everything else etc etc. the further you stray from original the more complicated it makes everything, and even then when you think you have done it right, something comes up you realize you need to re-engineer. This is a development and prototyping process. Stay closer to stock and you will have fewer of those issues. 

 

which gets to the point, if you want a full-size truck buy a full-size truck, what makes the Comanche special is that it is not a full-size truck. 
 

[75sv1]

3 hours ago, Sir Sam said:

I have the WJ big brakes on a HP D30 in my 00MJ, with cut down WJ steering arms. I would also consider doing 1 ton TREs for steering as well. But skipped it for now since parts availability isn’t great these days. The WJ steering and TREs is quite a bit beefier than XJ.

 

In short for WJ brake swap you need;

 WJ rotors redrilled to 5x4.5,
WJ knuckles,

WJ brake caliper bracket,

WJ brake calipers,

WJ pads,

JKS weld on unit bearing spacer,

00+ XJ/TJ unit bearings, 

 

modified sway bar link bracket to clear upper tre to steering box linkage. 
 

custom made steering bars or JKS steering bars

 

or: modified WJ stock steering(narrowed)

 

I left my stock track bar and stabilizer/dampener, I was able to use all the WJ clamps which including the one for the dampner 

 

my angles for track bar VS steering are not ideal, but drive ability doesn’t seem to be affected by them. Still custom track bar brackets at both the frame and axle, along with an adjustable track bar, would be more ideal. 

 

1 ton steering could also be a nice upgrade

I've done 2, and then modified one to WJ hubs  for 5on5 rims. 

 Rotors, redrilled (Stink Fab has a jig) or 07-08 Dodge Nitro rotors. You need 1/4 spacers for the WJ Rotors and 1/16 to 1/8 for the Nitros.

Spacers locate the Caliper centered. Some use Ford rotors. I question the diameter on these. The Nitros are about 1/8 less diameter so 1/16 less pad contact. With your plans, I'd feel better if you used WJ rotors. 

WJ Brake Calipers : Akebonos, not Teves

I don't like the WJ Steering linkage, a bit thin. Also, some have used the stock XJ MJ. The taper on the stock TREs is the same. 

Unit Bearings, yes 00-01. I like SKF and Timken. NAPA changed from SKF to F(L)AG. yes no L. I think one of my new ones is FLAG, the other SKF. Haven't been on them yet.

WJ Lower ball joints. Uppers are the same for WJ and XJ/MJ.

Stinky Fab and Ironman 4X4 have parts and kits. 

https://ironman4x4fab.com/

https://www.stinkyfab.com/

 

https://www.car-part.com/

Good for parts search, some ship. Also, might try Row52. Some of the PnPs list pickers.

[Sir Sam]

I used the stinkyfab rotor drilling guide. I think it could have been better if they had cut the center hub hole and you set the rotor, and guide on a bearing without studs to help center it. I used some 1/2” extensions to keep the holes aligned for marking. 
 

the WJ arms might be thin compared to other aftermarket, but they are better than XJ stock. Still, the reason I ended up cutting them down was that I couldn’t get JKS premade steering arms at the time, they could not give me an expected ship date so I cancelled the whole order. For the price of JKS I would rather buy a DIY 1 ton setup and reamer. 

[Pete M]

it's all a slippery slope of spending  

[Sir Sam]

5 hours ago, Pete M said:

it's all a slippery slope of spending  

Money aside, it’s also a slippery slope of reliability/debugging. 
 

for example, I’m going to add a power steering cooler on my MJ, when you get to big tires it becomes a necessity. So now you’ve got to runs lines, figure out mounting, make sure it’s leak free, well engineering all that, and engineering it properly, takes time. Sure you can half @$$ and rig it up so it works, but for how long. Lots of engineering effort went into designing something that would be trouble free for 30 years. Now you need to figure out something that’s going to give you good reliability. And guess what, chances are when you are finally done you will go “knowing what I know now I know how to do this better/easier next time”. All of this stuff takes time to do it right.  And the further you stray from stock the more you run into like that. 

[EUREKA]

3 hours ago, Sir Sam said:

Money aside, it’s also a slippery slope of reliability/debugging. 
 

for example, I’m going to add a power steering cooler on my MJ, when you get to big tires it becomes a necessity. So now you’ve got to runs lines, figure out mounting, make sure it’s leak free, well engineering all that, and engineering it properly, takes time. Sure you can half @$$ and rig it up so it works, but for how long. Lots of engineering effort went into designing something that would be trouble free for 30 years. Now you need to figure out something that’s going to give you good reliability. And guess what, chances are when you are finally done you will go “knowing what I know now I know how to do this better/easier next time”. All of this stuff takes time to do it right.  And the further you stray from stock the more you run into like that. 

Ive been there. I actually had a ps cooler on my ZJ for many years.

[75sv1]

15 hours ago, Pete M said:

it's all a slippery slope of spending  

Its the J.E.E.P. Syndrome. No cure available. 

[derf]

10 hours ago, Sir Sam said:

Money aside, it’s also a slippery slope of reliability/debugging. 
 

for example, I’m going to add a power steering cooler on my MJ, when you get to big tires it becomes a necessity. So now you’ve got to runs lines, figure out mounting, make sure it’s leak free, well engineering all that, and engineering it properly, takes time. Sure you can half @$$ and rig it up so it works, but for how long. Lots of engineering effort went into designing something that would be trouble free for 30 years. Now you need to figure out something that’s going to give you good reliability. And guess what, chances are when you are finally done you will go “knowing what I know now I know how to do this better/easier next time”. All of this stuff takes time to do it right.  And the further you stray from stock the more you run into like that. 

 

I get reluctance to modify, especially if you're never really going to use the truck in a way where the modifications are useful.  I also get that a lot of people just like stock vehicles and they don't want to modify anything.  And you really shouldn't feel the need to justify the decisions you make for your Jeep.

 

But things like power steering coolers and all that other stuff isn't rocket surgery.  Even upgrading the suspension and axles to handle monster tires is a well known quantity that no one should be afraid of.  If you take some time and plan things out ahead of time, you can have a rig that's plenty reliable.  Really built up rigs may not be your cup of tea but it's "easy" to build them up so they'll hold up to a lot of abuse and be plenty reliable.

 

One other thing to remember.  The engineers who originally designed the truck in the first place were many times plagued by cost constraints or office politics (i.e. Peugeot forcing the BA10/5 on AMC/Jeep).  Stock vehicles in many cases are only reliable enough to mostly last until the warranty runs out.  Chrysler transmissions are legendary for that trait.  And that's just one example among so very many.  Just because it's stock doesn't mean it's reliable.

[Sir Sam]

You are right it’s not rocket surgery. It’s on the fly engineering, trust me I do it all the time. Not just on my vehicles, but also on US Navy gas turbines/systems. I don’t need a reminder about engineering hours vs margins or ship dates. 
 

Sure engineering always has constraints, trust me I know. But let’s take the example of a transmission cooler. There are lots of aftermarket coolers out there, it’s easy to slap one on with those through radiator push ties, cut and splice a line with rubber hose. Does it work? sure!

 

Now go look at the Factory transmission cooler setup. The cooler is a little small for my tastes, and I would guess that’s some cost cutting there. But how it connects to the existing trans lines, carefully designed and bent hardlines that fit the vehicle perfectly and route out of the way. 
 

when you try to recreate that, or do something else, it’s more likely that you will have an issue with it, your line chafes, or comes loose, hits the belt, and then gets a hole rubbed in it that spews ATF all over the front of your engine while climbing a pass on i10 between LA and Vegas in 102 degree heat, eventually leading to enough atf hitting the exhaust manifold to catch fire, leaving a burned up Jeep on the side of the road and a permanent scar of the car fire on the road. 
 

Seriously, drive that stretch of road and look at all the car fire scars!

 

Now that’s a worst case hyperbole, but even the best case of a failure is still a headache. 
 

Sure, you can plan it out, take your time and do it right, and still have issues come up. Sure maybe you have no issues for 40k miles, and then something happens you would only have known about if you out 40k miles of use on, and then you go “ok I got this fixed and I made a change so I know this exact problem won’t happen again.” But the thing is, the factory did that, and did it in an accelerated way that you cannot. I’m not saying our jeeps were perfect from the get go, but they were pretty damm reliable. 
 

So generally the more you modify and change, the more likely you are to spend time making things right, including going through several iterations while you get things dialed in. Here is where the KISS principle comes into play, it’s easy to let the scope creep come in and say “go big or go home” but simple is better. 
 

So let’s bring that back around to the OP. OP wants a “1-ton” Comanche, which is sort of a subjective goal. Let’s say the goal is suspension and axles to give a safe equivalent load rating to a F250. 
 

Well which is easier and more reliable, an MJ with tons of modifications, or a stock F250. I don’t care how well you do the MJ, give each one the exact same use and the F250 will be an “easier” vehicle, either from the debugging, or from an off the shelf parts availability. 
 

Which brings it back to the OP, what’s the goal? The OP makes it sound like they want a work truck, so is it a fun project Jeep that it doesn’t matter it’s down a few days while you order some new TREs from rough stuff? Or is it an everyday “I need to get work done and I don’t have time for my work truck to be down” type of vehicle?

[omega_rugal]

for the OP

 

you gonna spend a lot of money on it and in the end it may not be what you want, you may end up hating it for making you waste time, money, effort...

 

but as a jeep aficionado i would say go for it

 

2 hours ago, derf said:

The engineers who originally designed the truck in the first place were many times plagued by cost constraints or office politics

 

yes but i have realized that some design flaws in an MJ actually come from OVER doing things, there were cheaper and more reliable options, i bet they were high on caffeine...

[derf]

50 minutes ago, omega_rugal said:

yes but i have realized that some design flaws in an MJ actually come from OVER doing things, there were cheaper and more reliable options, i bet they were high on caffeine...

I can say this because I are one...

 

Engineers are the dumbest smart people you'll ever meet.

 

Just because engineers designed it for sale doesn't mean that good decisions were made.  Throw in the upper management and sales people (dumbest dumb people you'll ever meet) and add government regulations (don't get me started) and it's a wonder cars are as good as they are.

[EUREKA]

1 hour ago, Sir Sam said:

So let’s bring that back around to the OP. OP wants a “1-ton” Comanche, which is sort of a subjective goal. Let’s say the goal is suspension and axles to give a safe equivalent load rating to a F250. 

 

Well which is easier and more reliable, an MJ with tons of modifications, or a stock F250. I don’t care how well you do the MJ, give each one the exact same use and the F250 will be an “easier” vehicle, either from the debugging, or from an off the shelf parts availability. 
 

Which brings it back to the OP, what’s the goal? The OP makes it sound like they want a work truck, so is it a fun project Jeep that it doesn’t matter it’s down a few days while you order some new TREs from rough stuff? Or is it an everyday “I need to get work done and I don’t have time for my work truck to be down” type of vehicle?

I believe in the third post or so on this thread I said that out of ignorance I seem to have asked the wrong question. I'll explain what I'm after but I have to say this thread is interesting even if it's not exactly all targeted to my current goals.

So here is what I need the truck to do;

- A lot of driving on wet, curvy, hilly, highway. To this end I've even considered a 242 t-case, I have probably three 231's and at least one 242 laying around to rebuild. I understand the drawbacks of the 242 vs 231 but am not aware of any difference there may be in availability of aftermarket upgrades. Suspension or steering upgrades to improve handling on wet, curvy highway are of interest (I know its not a sports car).

 

- Be able to easily travel over very steep grades with a "full load". I'm not sure what the weight of a "full load" is. I know that I regularly haul loads just over 1200 pounds according to the scales at the dump.) I also know that ZJ's and XJ's I've owned in the past had inadequate brake systems when full of camping gear (disk and pad upgrades certainly help but don't get me the performance I want) We're talking very steep grades, and the climb is not the problem. I do have some switches in the cab that allow me to control which gear my AW4 is in, and that helps.

 

- Brake well while hauling a load.

 

- Access work sites via sloppy, rutted dirt roads. My ZJ with 2" lift coils, 30" mud tires, 4.10:1 gears, and Detroit tructrack differentials was able to do this pretty adeptly, I just had to avoid ruts made by full size trucks. I'm not sure Eaton makes a truetrack for the MJ Dana44, and if they don't I'm not sure what I will do. I really loved the performance on and off road from the truetrack units.

 

 

[EUREKA]

I live in a very rural area. There is one wrecker within hundreds of miles.

The odds of me finding a ZJ with the Dana44 are basically none. In fact I've just called the wreckers and they have no ZJ's, XJ's or MJ's at all. (I forgot to ask about WJ's for the front brakes and steering parts, I'll have to call them back)

 

I see there are some kits available for doing this conversion. Most are for the TJ or LJ, will these work for me? Any recommendations on this?

 

Found this kit

https://leedbrakes.com/i-23439388-rear-disc-brake-conversion-kit-with-maxgrip-xds-rotors-dana-35-dana-44-chrysler-8-1-4.html

 

 

[Pete M]

car-part.com can find ya stuff and then it's just a matter of a road trip

[EUREKA]

3 minutes ago, Pete M said:

car-part.com can find ya stuff and then it's just a matter of a road trip

It's an option. In the past that has meant an 8 hour trip, one way but according to car-part.com there is a Dana44 ZJ 3.5 hours (178 miles) drive from me.

Still, considering the gas money, my time, and the drive being notoriously unpleasant, I'm definitely interested in any kits that are available.

 

What should the parts for the Dana44 rear disk conversion cost from a yard?

[75sv1]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

car-part.com can find ya stuff and then it's just a matter of a road trip

Some of them ship. Others do not.

[Pete M]

'tis true.  that's why road trip. 

[EUREKA]

5 minutes ago, 75sv1 said:

Some of them ship. Others do not.

Oh ok I missed that. Thank you!

[EUREKA]

5 minutes ago, Pete M said:

'tis true.  that's why road trip. 

If it wasn't 100 degrees and choked with wildfire smoke, I'd be more tempted to travel to the big cities.

A road trip maybe required in the end.

[Sir Sam]

2 hours ago, EUREKA said:

I believe in the third post or so on this thread I said that out of ignorance I seem to have asked the wrong question. I'll explain what I'm after but I have to say this thread is interesting even if it's not exactly all targeted to my current goals.

So here is what I need the truck to do;

- A lot of driving on wet, curvy, hilly, highway. To this end I've even considered a 242 t-case, I have probably three 231's and at least one 242 laying around to rebuild. I understand the drawbacks of the 242 vs 231 but am not aware of any difference there may be in availability of aftermarket upgrades. Suspension or steering upgrades to improve handling on wet, curvy highway are of interest (I know its not a sports car).

 

- Be able to easily travel over very steep grades with a "full load". I'm not sure what the weight of a "full load" is. I know that I regularly haul loads just over 1200 pounds according to the scales at the dump.) I also know that ZJ's and XJ's I've owned in the past had inadequate brake systems when full of camping gear (disk and pad upgrades certainly help but don't get me the performance I want) We're talking very steep grades, and the climb is not the problem. I do have some switches in the cab that allow me to control which gear my AW4 is in, and that helps.

 

- Brake well while hauling a load.

 

- Access work sites via sloppy, rutted dirt roads. My ZJ with 2" lift coils, 30" mud tires, 4.10:1 gears, and Detroit tructrack differentials was able to do this pretty adeptly, I just had to avoid ruts made by full size trucks. I'm not sure Eaton makes a truetrack for the MJ Dana44, and if they don't I'm not sure what I will do. I really loved the performance on and off road from the truetrack units.

 

 

 

I think that defines it a little better. 

 

242 transfer case: I'm a big fan of these and all my jeeps have them. From my perspective the only downside is that the bolt on SYE is damm expensive, so the hack n tap is the way to go. 

 

Suspension upgrade for better handling....well, make sure its all in good order, generally don't lift it if you want it to handle curves better. Retain your swaybar. 

 

I think a set of metric ton springs will probably do what you want for the rear loading.

 

Brake well.......I think the WJ is the no brainer goto for this. Might be harder for you to find those parts than myself, I can drive an hour to denver any day of the week and pickup the parts from a junkyard. It changes the economics if you have to look for those parts online. 

 

I'm also a fan of rear disks, if you didn't already have a D44 I would tell you to swap in a KJ 8.25 from an 03+ These come with disks and the parking brake cables work with the stock MJ brackets and such. A ford 8.8 is also a good option. The D44 is strong, but the axle tubes are a little small compared to the 8.25 and 8.8. The perk to the 8.8 is that they are common enough that finding one with 4.10s or 4.10s and LSD is possible without much hassle. You might consider the cost of a complete axle somewhere with LSD compared to the cost of disk brakes and Detroit true track in the rear.

 

I think what you want is attainable with a mild build, you don't have to go crazy with 1-tons and long arm lift for what you want. Metric ton springs and spring over axle with some front lift might get you exactly where you want to be.

 

[EUREKA]

It's nice to hear something encouraging about the 242 because it does seem to fit my needs. Is there a brand of hack in tap sye that you recommend for the 242? I have only rebuilt 231's using Novak Adapter kits.

 

I hadn't planed to lift it much, partly because I don't want to make it more difficult to use the bed. I think 2" spacers on the metric ton front coils for the front, and spring over for the rear. I'm not sure that would give an even lift though. I plan on upgrading the swaybar. Plan on new control arm bushings, and WJ control arms as well.

 

I'm not aware of any factory clutch pack type LSD that are comparable to the truetrack in performance. I have seen some factory LSD perform very well when they are still newer, but not the same. Helical gear LS is far superior in my experience, especially once in the mud. Basically, if I can't find one for the MJ Dana44, I will not be using my Dana44 in this truck.

[Pete M]

a spring over gives around 6" of lift. 

 

My KJ has a 242 and has been in AWD mode for 13 years and 200k miles so far.  I wouldn't want any other t-case.