Clutch Question on an '87

[glundblad]

Hi everyone,

I have an '87 4.0 Comanche that I bought new back in the day.  I store it in a climate controlled garage during the winters.  When I started it up this spring,  I felt something in the clutch pedal give that felt like the spring broke.  It still has its original Peugeot transmission and last fall, it ran and shifted like new.  I know the history of the Peugeot transmission but I also know the history of the truck (plus I am rebuilding an old sports car in my free time).  I really don't have plans to swap the transmission.

 

On my old sports car, the spring is staring right at me when I raise the hood but I can't see a spring on the comanche. If I recall correctly, the slave on the comanche is inside the bell housing. 

 

Is it safe to say the spring is in the bell housing also?  In other words, do I need to drop the transmission to find out of the clutch seized or if a spring broke?

 

Thanks

Gary

[ghetdjc320]

Original owner MJ, that’s awesome! Does the clutch still engage? There isn’t actually a spring in the bell housing. The pressure plate is the “spring”. 

[glundblad]

No.  The clutch doesn't engage.  The pedal feels very soft as if it isn't moving anything.  On my Datsun, I can look at the back side of the pedal and see what it is moving.  On the Comanche, its not that easy.   :)

 

[ghetdjc320]

So the clutch pedal connects to the rod for the clutch master cylinder. Then there is a hydraulic line that goes to the slave cylinder. Apologies if youR already familiar with the setup. Can you confirm that the clutch linkage is still good and it is moving the input shaft on the clutch master cylinder? 

[mjeff87]

What is the fluid level inside your clutch master?  If you felt it through the pedal, then either the clutch master cylinder or the slave (inside the bellhousing) crapped out.Take a look inside the cab above the fuseblock, and also underneath the trans at the bottom of the bellhousing, for dripping fluid.  My bet is the slave died....and that requires pulling the transmission to diagnose/repair/replace, unfortunately.

[glundblad]

hmm.  I couldn't see where the linkage connected to the master.  I assumed it was buried but if that isn't the case, I need to circle back and double check that.  It would be nice if the linkage went out. 

 

The master had plenty of fluid in it.  But last fall, I noticed fluid dripping on my concrete floor.  I assumed it was the rear main leaking but now I am wondering if it was the slave.

[ghetdjc320]

14 minutes ago, glundblad said:

hmm.  I couldn't see where the linkage connected to the master.  I assumed it was buried but if that isn't the case, I need to circle back and double check that.  It would be nice if the linkage went out. 

 

The master had plenty of fluid in it.  But last fall, I noticed fluid dripping on my concrete floor.  I assumed it was the rear main leaking but now I am wondering if it was the slave.

Could very well be your slave cylinder. The swap is very straightforward though. Good opportunity to replace clutch while your in there. If it’s just the linkage, you’ll be able to see it from under the dash though there may be plenty of wiring and the steering column in the way

[87MJTIM]

I would start at the top.  Look at the master cylinder, both in the engine compartment and inside at the push rod.  Is the push rod damp?  Probably need to replace master.  If so, check the fuse block for brake fluid that may have dripped from the master cyl.

 

If the master cyl is fine, then travel down to the slave/throw-out cyl.  Is there fluid dripping from the bottom of the trans?  Could be oil, could be hydraulic fluid.  

 

If the slave cyl is bad, then you will have to drop the trans and replace it.  While you are in there check/replace the clutch kit while you are in there (unless it was replaced recently).

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but....

 

My BA10 never left me stranded.  My issues were always the internal slave cylinders.  For the first 25 yrs, my MJ was on its 5th slave cyl.  Some lasted many years, others lasted <2 yrs.  It did not get to see a 6th cyl.  I swapped in an AX15 with an external slave cyl.  

[glundblad]

13 minutes ago, 87MJTIM said:

I would start at the top.  Look at the master cylinder, both in the engine compartment and inside at the push rod.  Is the push rod damp?  Probably need to replace master.  If so, check the fuse block for brake fluid that may have dripped from the master cyl.

 

If the master cyl is fine, then travel down to the slave/throw-out cyl.  Is there fluid dripping from the bottom of the trans?  Could be oil, could be hydraulic fluid.  

 

If the slave cyl is bad, then you will have to drop the trans and replace it.  While you are in there check/replace the clutch kit while you are in there (unless it was replaced recently).

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but....

 

My BA10 never left me stranded.  My issues were always the internal slave cylinders.  For the first 25 yrs, my MJ was on its 5th slave cyl.  Some lasted many years, others lasted <2 yrs.  It did not get to see a 6th cyl.  I swapped in an AX15 with an external slave cyl.  

Check the fuse block for fluid?  Oh no.  I hope not.  I won't see the truck until at least this weekend.  I don't keep it at the house.

 

I hear you regarding your broken record comment. My truck has 87k miles. It was my wife's daily driver for most of those 87k miles.  My dad owned it for about 10k of them.  I know what the drivetrain has gone through and it has had a very easy life.  If I go to a JY and get an XJ AX15, I have no idea if that transmission has been thrashed or not.  Plus I have no idea how long that thing has been sitting there in the weeds.

 

Would you still do it?

[87MJTIM]

The AX15 is a good transmission.  I have two, one in the MJ and one in a CJ.  The one in the CJ came from a wrecked 90 XJ.  The one in the MJ was purchased off Craigslist.  The guy selling it pulled it from a 98 XJ he was parting out.  I did not see up close the XJ, but it did not appear to have been wrecked.  Both have worked fine.  (Although the one in the CJ feels better for shifting.) 

 

(Actually, I have three.  I pulled one from the JY.  There were two XJs with AX15s.  One was a 4wd with an internal slave cyl.  The other was a 2wd with an external slave cyl. I left the JY with a 4wd AX15 and the bellhousing for the external slave cyl.)

 

If you're concerned about a JY AX15, search for an XJ that was wrecked.  If it was wrecked, it probably means it was being driven.  Also, look for one that was not heavily modified for off roading.  If it was somebodies daily driver, it may not have been thrashed on the trails.

[glundblad]

I didn't know AX15 could also have an internal slave.  I assumed it was such a bad idea that Peugeot invented the concept.   Thanks for the heads up.   Maybe I will start keeping an eye out for one.    I really need to drive this poor MJ a bit otherwise, it will sit for an entire summer.

[87MJTIM]

The AX15 (at least in XJ/MJs) were internal slave cyl from mid-89 thru 93.  In 94, Jeep switched to external slave cyl.  The 94+ AX15 (at least the bellhousings) is more desirable.

[Eagle]

I'm coming to this late, but my guess is that either the flex hose between the master and slave ruptured, or the slave itself ruptured.

 

[SVPete]

Look at the clutch pedal itself too. My clutch pedal physically broke about in 1992 after owning it for four years.

 

Look at the square-ish bracket which was originally half welded to the tube the pivot bolt passes through.

[mjeff87]

22 hours ago, glundblad said:

  I assumed it was such a bad idea that Peugeot invented the concept.   

 

you win the internet for today......

[glundblad]

I wanted to explain and document what went wrong with my clutch. 

 

But first a little background.  It is an '87 with factory everything including the transmission.  The truck is stored in a climate controlled building and is driven under 500 miles per year.  It is stored in the winter.  The last time I drove it was late July 2019.  90k original miles.

 

I started it up early this summer and I felt tension in the clutch then something let loose.   No pressure at all so I couldn't put it in gear.  I checked all the recommendations above. 

 

A week ago, I pushed it out of the garage so the wrecker can load it up and take it to the mechanic.  They called a few hours later and asked for clarification about the problem.  The clutch was working fine.  So apparently, the clutch got air in it from sitting.  They bled it for me and called it good.  The truck runs fine now. My mechanic recommended that I pump the clutch a few times if it happens again.  So I will.  But it goes against my instincts because the pedal feels like it isn't doing anything.  Apparently it is a common problem for vehicles that sit a lot.  

[87MJTIM]

The slave cylinder is going bad.  Go ahead and replace it.  It happened to me at least 5 times.  Then I swapped in an AX15 with an external slave cyl.

 

 

[Big Dan]

At the threat of a complete thread hijack - why are the internal slaves so bad with the BA 10/5 and AX15?  Most modern manual vehicles use internal slaves and there doesnt seem to be a problem.

[87MJTIM]

The part in and of itself may be fine, it's just that when it fail (not If, but when) you have to drop the trans to replace it.

 

As an original owner, mine went through five separate internal slave cyls.   Some lasted for many years; some only lasted 2-3 years.  The part is not expensive.  Its the labor to drop the trans and reinstall that made it costly.

 

As I have stated repeatedly on CC, mine saw 5, it was never going to see a 6th.

[JustEmptyEveryPocket]

56 minutes ago, 87MJTIM said:

As I have stated repeatedly on CC, mine saw 5, it was never going to see a 6th.

Mine saw 1 replacement. It was never going to see a 2nd.