Home Electrical issue

[Eagle]

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

In the basement/crawlspace (it's basically a 4ft high basement with a sand floor) and the PEX is random sections between the meter and the faucets, there's a total of maybe 10 feet.  The plumbing was originally the ground for those outlets, the PEX broke the ground so he put it back. 

 

 

Plumbing cannot be the grounding conductor for the devices in the house. That's a violation of the NEC. The individual outlets (either permanent light fixtures or receptacles) should be grounded back to the breaker panel grounding bus bar. The panel itself has to be grounded. That can be grounded to a water service, but the connection must be made within five feet of where the water service pipe enters the building.

 

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The white wire is the ground at the outlets so it wouldn't energize the plumbing unless I touched hot while taking said dump, which would shock anyone regardless.

 

 

Incorrect. The whole point of providing grounded outlets is so that if an appliance (maybe an old electric drill, or a hair dryer, or whatever) has an internal fault and allows the hot wire to contact the case/enclosure, that current will be carried back to the breaker box and then to ground rather than grounding through you. If the grounding wire is connected to the house plumbing -- on the house side of the PEX, where it's electrically isolated from the ground connection to the water service -- then a fault with any device will energize the plumbing piping and anyone who touches the piping or water from the piping may become the path to ground and will get zapped.

[Dzimm]

13 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

Plumbing cannot be the grounding conductor for the devices in the house. That's a violation of the NEC. The individual outlets (either permanent light fixtures or receptacles) should be grounded back to the breaker panel grounding bus bar. The panel itself has to be grounded. That can be grounded to a water service, but the connection must be made within five feet of where the water service pipe enters the building.

 

 

Incorrect. The whole point of providing grounded outlets is so that if an appliance (maybe an old electric drill, or a hair dryer, or whatever) has an internal fault and allows the hot wire to contact the case/enclosure, that current will be carried back to the breaker box and then to ground rather than grounding through you. If the grounding wire is connected to the house plumbing -- UPSTREAM from the PEX -- then a fault with any device will energize the plumbing piping and anyone who touches the piping or water from the piping will get zapped.

It's a violation now but it wasn't in years past as I understand it.  They made it a violation after plastic plumbing came into use so really if it bypasses the plastic, it should be just fine.  Correct me if I'm wrong but that's my understanding.  

 

Now he did run the grounds to the meter (about a foot from where the pipe enters), which is grounded on both sides to outside via a 6 gauge wire going through the cinder block.  He ran everything upstream of the PEX to the meter so it bypasses the PEX entirely.  Not ideal but this is the cost difference between a $500 repair and a $3k+ one.  Ideally he'd run all new wire from the panel but I can do that myself for much much less, I just want this voltage taken care of for now so I don't get shocked or have a fire.  The electrical panel is grounded outside so while not grounded entirely up to code, its basically repaired to what was code in the past and it stops any arching.  I'll see what he says about code tomorrow, he was pretty confident this was the way to go without rewiring everything.

 

Now I am planning on redoing most of the electrical in the house since I have pretty easy access to everything and some runs have way too much on them.  My biggest problem aside from the phantom voltage is that I've got shared neutrals, which don't allow my GFCI/AFCI breakers to work.  Once I get that sorted, I can install the GFCI/AFCI breakers and run new wires entirely or dedicated grounds to outlets from the panel. 

[Eagle]

4 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

It's a violation now but it wasn't in years past as I understand it.  They made it a violation after plastic plumbing came into use so really if it bypasses the plastic, it should be just fine.  Correct me if I'm wrong but that's my understanding.

 

I'm far from an expert on the NEC. I am licensed as a building inspector, but my expertise isn't in the electrical side of the codes. That said, I don't think it was ever allowed to ground outlets through the building's plumbing system. As I explained, that creates the possibility of energizing the entire plumbing system in the event of a ground fault in a device upstairs. That's not just a technical nonconformity -- that can kill you.

[Dzimm]

25 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

I'm far from an expert on the NEC. I am licensed as a building inspector, but my expertise isn't in the electrical side of the codes. That said, I don't think it was ever allowed to ground outlets through the building's plumbing system. As I explained, that creates the possibility of energizing the entire plumbing system in the event of a ground fault in a device upstairs. That's not just a technical nonconformity -- that can kill you.

Right and it makes perfect sense what your saying I'm just reading almost everywhere saying that's how it used to be done and it's fine up until the plastic plumbing gets thrown in, then it's not.  I'm also reading the NEC used to allow it but that doesn't mean it's not a potential hazard still.  However it really can't be worse than just random, constantly energized stuff without ground at all.  

 

I also never knew plumbing was tied to electrical at all until researching this so it's all new to me.  

[Eagle]

2 hours ago, Dzimm said:

... I'm just reading almost everywhere saying that's how it used to be done and it's fine up until the plastic plumbing gets thrown in, then it's not.  I'm also reading the NEC used to allow it ...

 

 

Where are you reading that that's the way it used to be done? I'm a lot older than you are, and I've been at this game since just about the time that house was built (my first job in an architect's office was in 1966). I've never seen it done that way, and your house is the first time I've even heard of it being done that way. I'm living in the house my parents had built in 1950, and it sure wasn't done that way.

[Dzimm]

4 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

Where are you reading that that's the way it used to be done? I'm a lot older than you are, and I've been at this game since just about the time that house was built (my first job in an architect's office was in 1966). I've never seen it done that way, and your house is the first time I've even heard of it being done that way. I'm living in the house my parents had built in 1950, and it sure wasn't done that way.

Not that the internet is always right but every forum post I see across Google is saying that's how it was done.  I've read probably 2 dozen threads across all different sites and they all pretty much have the concerns with the plastic plumbing but they say it was done that way in the past due to a good ground with copper or cast pipes being so deep in the ground.  Most of them also say it's important to have your pipes grounded to the panel.

[Eagle]

3 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

Not that the internet is always right but every forum post I see across Google is saying that's how it was done.  I've read probably 2 dozen threads across all different sites and they all pretty much have the concerns with the plastic plumbing but they say it was done that way in the past due to a good ground with copper or cast pipes being so deep in the ground.  Most of them also say it's important to have your pipes grounded to the panel.

 

Ah! You are extrapolating.

 

I commented above that the breaker panel can be grounded to the water service pipe or iron or steel well casing, but the connection MUST be made within 5 feet of where the water pipe enters the structure. That was to code, and that's still allowed by code.

 

What is NOT allowed by code -- not now and I'm pretty certain not in 1967 -- is to ground individual receptacles (and/or light fixtures) to the plumbing piping running throughout the house. And that's what your electrician did in the attic. That's dangerous. Even if he installed a jumper to bridge the PEX (which you did not mention his doing), it's still dangerous.

[Dzimm]

Ok this got more confusing.  We discovered the studs to neutral is 13v.  How does that even happen.

[Eagle]

2 hours ago, Dzimm said:

Ok this got more confusing.  We discovered the studs to neutral is 13v.  How does that even happen.

 

WOOD studs? 42-year old WOOD studs? YIKES!

 

Which way is the current flowing -- studs positive and neutral negative, or neutral positive (?!?!?) and studs negative?

 

The house wiring is Romex, right (plastic sheath, not metal armored cable, a.k.a. BX)? Wall finish is sheetrock? Possibly a random nail or screw nicked a black (positive) conductor and is transferring power into the stud. Are all the studs energized, or just one or a few?

[Dzimm]

5 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

WOOD studs? 42-year old WOOD studs? YIKES!

 

Which way is the current flowing -- studs positive and neutral negative, or neutral positive (?!?!?) and studs negative?

Yes wood, makes no sense.  I'm not entirely sure which direction, he was doing the testing on that so I didn't see it. 

 

We also found that by touching the inside of the outlet box is 5V but touching the outside of the box is 10V.  We aren't entirely sure how one side of a metal object can read different than the other and yes it was a clean spot and it was consistent at those voltages.

[Eagle]

I think those boxes are galvanized, so it may be a function of how well the test probes make contact, and whether they're contacting the plating or the underlying steel. Also, if whatever is energizing the box is contacting the outside, it may be a question of how well the current passes through the exterior coating to the steel box, and then from the steel box through the interior coating to the test probe.

[Dzimm]

41 minutes ago, Eagle said:

I think those boxes are galvanized, so it may be a function of how well the test probes make contact, and whether they're contacting the plating or the underlying steel. Also, if whatever is energizing the box is contacting the outside, it may be a question of how well the current passes through the exterior coating to the steel box, and then from the steel box through the interior coating to the test probe.

I suppose that's possible.  We were getting similar results on all the boxes we tested so if they are only galvanized on one side I suppose that would make sense.

[Dzimm]

Well Wednesday next week the owner of the company is coming out to take a look.  He's a master electrician and been in the trade for just shy of 30 years so we'll see what he has to say about it.  

[Eagle]

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

Yes wood, makes no sense.  I'm not entirely sure which direction, he was doing the testing on that so I didn't see it. 

 

We also found that by touching the inside of the outlet box is 5V but touching the outside of the box is 10V.  We aren't entirely sure how one side of a metal object can read different than the other and yes it was a clean spot and it was consistent at those voltages.

 

Were these readins with the ground wires attached, or disconnected and isolated?

 

5V or 10V between the box and what -- box to stud? Box to neutral?

[Dzimm]

Just now, Eagle said:

 

Were these readins with the ground wires attached, or disconnected and isolated?

These were actually in 2 different switch boxes.  One has a mystery ground wire that we can't find anywhere and the other has no ground wire to it at all.

[Eagle]

Just now, Dzimm said:

These were actually in 2 different switch boxes.  One has a mystery ground wire that we can't find anywhere and the other has no ground wire to it at all.

 

Are all the boxes wired with Romex, or are some of them wired with BX (metal armored cable)?

[Dzimm]

4 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

Are all the boxes wired with Romex, or are some of them wired with BX (metal armored cable)?

None are armoured, it's all the fabric coated Romex style

[Eagle]

Fabric-coated?

 

That's very old school. I think that stuff only had a life expectancy of 25 years. Ask the master electrician about that. And ask him about doing a megger test.

[Jeep Driver]

1 hour ago, Eagle said:

Fabric-coated?

I suspect voltage is leaking to the metal box where it is clamped to the box. 

 

 

Glad I stayed out of this thread. 

[Eagle]

11 minutes ago, Jeep Driver said:

I suspect voltage is leaking to the metal box where it is clamped to the box. 

 

 

I agree.

 

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Glad I stayed out of this thread. 

 

 

I'm sort of wishing I had done the same.

[Dzimm]

Why would they ever use a wire with such a short life expectancy?  

 

You guys are lucky you have the option to stay away from this mess.  I'm seriously debating just running all new wiring.

[Jeep Driver]

12 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

Why would they ever use a wire with such a short life expectancy?  

Ever hear of knob-n-tube wiring? 

It's called evolution.........materials change over time. 

 

To answer your question- I suspect your house was built in the late 40s to early 50s, it was the materials that were available at the time, the height of technology for the era. 

Young people today assume that what is always was.......not so. Much if not all of what you use or consume or have come to expect out of an appliance or convenience has all taken place in the last 100 years.....what's old really ain't that old. 

 

[Dzimm]

Just now, Jeep Driver said:

Ever hear of knob-n-tube wiring? 

It's called evolution.........materials change over time. 

 

To answer your question- I suspect your house was built in the late 40s to early 50s, it was the materials that were available at the time, the height of technology for the era. 

Young people today assume that was is always was.......not so. Much if not all of what you use or consume or have come to expect out of an appliance or convenience has all taken place in the last 100 years.....what's old really ain't that old. 

 

It was actually built in 67 so way after knob and tube and just before the ground wire was required.   

[Jeep Driver]

Just now, Dzimm said:

It was actually built in 67 so way after knob and tube and just before the ground wire was required.   

OK, I was guessing. 

 

Many of the houses I worked on in FL from the 50s lets say was wired with the same wiring you have.....was not uncommon for the time. 

[Jeep Driver]

4 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

It was actually built in 67 so way after knob and tube and just before the ground wire was required.   

Knob-and-tube wiring (sometimes abbreviated K&T) is an early standardized method of electrical wiring in buildings, in common use in North America from about 1880 to the early 1940s.^[1][2] It consisted of single-insulated copper conductors run within wall or ceiling cavities, passing through joist and stud drill-holes via protective porcelain insulating tubes, and supported along their length on nailed-down porcelain knobinsulators. Where conductors entered a wiring device such as a lamp or switch, or were pulled into a wall, they were protected by flexible cloth insulating sleeving called loom. The first insulation was asphalt-saturated cotton cloth, then rubber became common. Wire splices in such installations were twisted together for good mechanical strength, then soldered and wrapped with rubber insulating tape and friction tape (asphalt saturated cloth), or made inside metal junction boxes.

 

 

 

I guess you missed my point. 

 

30 years ain't ain't nothin in the grand scheme of things. 

 

The evolution of residential plumbing and electricity is a relatively new phenomenon.

Electricity did not come to the area that I live in until about 1937........I've spoken to old timers here who remember life before electricity, and then they tell me in the beginning you were lucky if you had one light bulb.