Manche757 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 If there was a well and no city water main to ground to, the secondary ground was attached to the cold water line to the well. If there was a single well pipe going in the ground, often the ground wire was attached to that water pipe. If it was a cased well, the line was often to the well casing. You might know the single pipe well as a well point, a sand point or, driven well. A vertacle strainer on the bottom of vertical piping, A cased well is one that has a larger pipe drilled or washed in the ground (soil) and another pipe inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 When pvc/cpvc, poly piping and pec pipe came into use, the water piping was no longer conductive. Grounding rods became the secondary ground. Evidently it is 8 feet across the country. Dry New Mexico or a low area. I have never heard of as inspector raising an issue, but if you leave 2 inches out of the ground, then an 8 foot rod is not 8 feet in the ground. Some prefer leaving the top out of the ground; others below the ground. Some electricians cover themselves by putting two rods in the ground. Or using a 10 foot grounding rod. Ok done with all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 After you finish with visuals, the next step would be testing the main breaker and individual circuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 Grounds to the power company also help regulate the power coming in your house. If that ground is interrupted, you might get power surges in your house and not know why. As you use more power, the surge gets worse. Call the power company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 20, 2019 Author Share Posted June 20, 2019 49 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Grounds to the power company also help regulate the power coming in your house. If that ground is interrupted, you might get power surges in your house and not know why. As you use more power, the surge gets worse. Call the power company. They have already been out. At first I thought I was getting too much voltage coming in but come to find out my fluke battery was dying. He looked at my issue and basically explained like what we've discussed, some sort of ground fault somewhere but he said everything was testing good on their end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Dzimm, are making some progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 On 6/18/2019 at 5:28 PM, Eagle said: There is no BOCA code. It went away in 1999. For single family houses, every state now uses some edition of the International Residential Code, which allows following either the electrical provisions in the IRC or using the NEC (National Electrical Code). The IRC is available on-line at www.iccsafe.org. The house was built in 1967. Indications are that its electrical system was installed in conformity with stansard practices of the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Manche757 said: The house was built in 1967. Indications are that its electrical system was installed in conformity with stansard practices of the day It may have been installed in accordance with whatever the code was for that jurisdiction in 1967, but the problems he's finding pretty conclusively prove that someone, at some time, made some "improvements" that very clearly were not to code. A code-compliant electrical system won't have stray current leaking all over the place and electrifying the mortar in the kitchen backsplash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 34 minutes ago, Eagle said: It may have been installed in accordance with whatever the code was for that jurisdiction in 1967, but the problems he's finding pretty conclusively prove that someone, at some time, made some "improvements" that very clearly were not to code. A code-compliant electrical system won't have stray current leaking all over the place and electrifying the mortar in the kitchen backsplash. That is abundantly clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 13 hours ago, Manche757 said: Dzimm, are making some progress? Very little. The things I had been putting off to work on this are catching up to me so I've been busy with other stuff. Everything is still torn apart and the breaker causing the majority of the stray voltage is turned off. My kitchen is half torn apart and it's really starting to eat at me. The more I think about it the more I just really don't understand how I'm having this problem. So circuit 1 is causing nearly 5v on the boxes/ground. Turning all other breakers off results in a drop of less than a volt. I have traced the wire for circuit 1 from the panel (followed it in the attic so it's confirmed not to branch), all the way to the first outlet. The first outlet then feeds into a second, which feeds a third. No other wire is present aside from this assumed ground. Now by disconnecting hot at outlet 1 that feeds 2 and 3 (basically only outlet 1 is connected to the panel) I still have the same 5v leading me to believe it has to be between the first outlet and the panel. However, I ran a temporary wire from the panel, across the floor and to the first outlet to bypass the wire in the wall, but still got 5v regardless if the 2nd or 3rd outlet were hooked up. Just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 The metal outlet boxes were grounded by an external wire that appears to have been added later. Where does that wire go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Rest assured the points of power flowing to ground can be found. The problem could be caused by screwups done by the prior owner but could also come from some problem with something connected to the system. An online example sites an outdoor lighting fixture that was energizing the the ground. Your meter may be creating small charges. Or some noise may be coming in from the power company. The ground is supposed to become energized if there is a failure of flow to neutral; that is the purpose of ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 From pics you sent, there is no lack of possibilities. You may have circuits cross connected with neutrals hooked in other circuits. Btw, the ground fault circuit you have in bathroom will likely give a failure reading if there is no ground to hook to. It still provides safety by tripping faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Suggestion: Turn off all all breakers. Then test for a defective breaker by testing for load side of breaker to the grounding bar. Test all breakers with all of them off. Don't be surprised if you get small readings that the battery in you meter is creating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 What are the amp ratings for your 220 circuits? I can not tell frim the pics of the panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Manche757 said: Suggestion: Turn off all all breakers. Then test for a defective breaker by testing for load side of breaker to the grounding bar. Test all breakers with all of them off. Don't be surprised if you get small readings that the battery in you meter is creating How small is considered "margin of error"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Eagle said: The metal outlet boxes were grounded by an external wire that appears to have been added later. Where does that wire go? No idea, they run through the wall somewhere and I've been unable to locate their destination anywhere in the crawlspace or attic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 23 minutes ago, Dzimm said: No idea, they run through the wall somewhere and I've been unable to locate their destination anywhere in the crawlspace or attic. The two loose white wires may be hooked to the grounding lugs on the boxes. Wiggle the loose end and look for movement at the box end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Dzimm said: Quote The metal outlet boxes were grounded by an external wire that appears to have been added later. Where does that wire go? No idea, they run through the wall somewhere and I've been unable to locate their destination anywhere in the crawlspace or attic. I can't help thinking they are part (maybe even all) of the problem. To save me going back through the entire thread -- where is the main electrical panel grounded to? Does it ground to a water pipe, to a well, or to a pair of grounding electrodes (big metal stakes) driven into the ground and buried? Story: My house was built in 1950. I know this exactly because my parents had the house built. This was the boonies in 1950. I have a well, and when the house was built the electrical system was grounded to the steel well casing through a connection to the pipe leading from the well to the pump, which is located in the basement. Along the way, at some point while my parents were still alive the pipes from the well to the house failed and were replaced with plastic. But nobody thought to do anything about adding a ground to replace what was now a broken connection. The grounding conductor from the fuse panel (which was later replaced with a more modern breaker panel) leads from the panel in the garage to the basement, where it's clamped to a length of 3/4" copper pipe that comes through the wall from outside, about 4 feet down from grade level. The problem is, that 3/4" copper pipe hasn't been connected to anything for about forty years. I finally figured all this out when I signed up for DirecTV about fifteen years ago. I knew where the dish was going to mount so I prewired the interior of the house to that location because I wanted to avoid having a bunch of wires running around the outside of my house. When the installers arrived, the first thing they wanted to do was run a ground wire from the dish location half way around the house to where the electrical service comes in. They said this was required by the NEC (National Electrical Code). I wasn't convinced, so I sent them away until I could do my homework. It turned out they were right, but they were wrong. When I got back to work (which, at the time, was in a town building inspection department), I talked to my boss. He knew the guy at the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) who writes the NEC Handbook, so he called him. And that guy didn't know the answer -- he had to research it and call us back. It took him a day or two. When he called back, he had a code section to point to. Satellite dishes do require grounding. BUT -- the ground wire isn't supposed to be more than 'X' feet long (I don't remember what 'X' is, but it's about a quarter of how far the satellite guys wanted to run their wire), and it's supposed to be straight, or nearly straight (they were going to make at least four right-angle bends). So I decided to do it right, since I knew the satellite guys weren't going to. I bought a new ground rod and drove it into the ground right below where the dish was going to go, and I ran a #6 wire from the ground rod up to the dish location. BUT -- and this is where I think your problem may lie -- the NEC allows for supplemental grounds such as what I installed, BUT it requires that any supplemental ground be "bonded" (connected) to the primary building ground (the NEC calls it the "primary grounding electrode system"). So I had to find where my electrical panel grounded, and connect to that. And that's when I discovered that the panel was grounded to a copper pipe that didn't go anywhere. So I started over from scratch. Back to Lowe's, bought two more ground rods and a long length of #6 wire. I drove the two new ground rods in the front of the house, near the well and near the electrical panel. Then I ran a new grounding #6 conductor from the panel to the first new ground rod, and then from that to the second new grounding rod. And then I ran another #6 wire from the supplemental ground rod in the back of the house through the basement and connected it to the new ground rods in the front. That's the "bonding" jumper. What that does is to ensure that everything is at the same electrical potential, which is what's necessary to prevent stray currents such as what you're encountering. This is why I'm interested in where those "new" add-on grounding wires go, because I suspect they aren't bonded to the building's primary grounding electrode system. And that is important. Side story -- when DirecTV came back, it was a different crew. These guys spoke English, and they actually seemed to know what they were doing. My call was mid-afternoon on a Friday, and when they showed up they were thinking they weren't going to get home (in the next state!) until very late. When they saw that the house was already wired, and the grounding conductor was right there waiting for them so all they had to do was mount and aim the dish and plug in the tuning boxes, they were ecstatic. They said it was the easiest installation they had ever done, and the only one they had ever seen that actually met the NEC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Eagle said: I can't help thinking they are part (maybe even all) of the problem. To save me going back through the entire thread -- where is the main electrical panel grounded to? Does it ground to a water pipe, to a well, or to a pair of grounding electrodes (big metal stakes) driven into the ground and buried? Story: My house was built in 1950. I know this exactly because my parents had the house built. This was the boonies in 1950. I have a well, and when the house was built the electical system was grounded to the steel well casing through a connection to the pipe leading from the well to the pump, which is located in the basement. Along the way, at some point while my parents were still alive the pipes from well to the house failed and were replaced with plastic. But nobody thought to do anything about adding a ground to replace what was now a broken connection. The grounding conductor from the fuse panel (which was later replaced with a more modern breaker panel) leads from the panel in the garage to the basement, where it's clamped to a length of 3/4" copper pipe that comes through the wall from outside, about 4 feet down from grade level. The problem is, that 3/4" copper pipe hasn't been connected to anything for about forty years. I finally figured all this out when signed up for DirecTV about fifteen years ago. I knew where the dish was going to mount so I prewired the interior of the house to that location because I wanted to avoid having a buch of wires running around the outside of my house. When the installers arrived, the first thing they anted to do was run a ground wire from the dish location half way around the house to where the electrical service comes in. They said this was required by the NEC (national Electrical Code). I wasn't convinced, so I sent them away until I could do my homework. It turned out they were right, but they were wrong. When I got back to work (which, at the time, was in a town building inspection department), I talked to my boss. He knew the guy at the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) who writes the NEC Handbook, so he called him. And that guy didn't know the answer -- he had to research it and call us back. It took him a day or two. When he called back, he had a code section to point to. Satellite dishes do require grounding. BUT -- the ground wire isn't supposed to be more than 'X' feet long (I don't remember what 'X' is, but it's about a quarter of how far the satellite guys wanted to run their wire), and it's supposed to be straight, or nearly straight (they were going to make at least four right-angle bends). So I decided to do it right, since I knew the satellite guys were going to. I bought a new ground rod and drove it into the ground right below where the dish was going to go, and I ran a #6 wire from the ground rod up to the dish location. BUT -- and this is where I think your problem may lie -- the NEC allows for supplemental grounds such as what I installed, BUT it requires that any supplemetal ground be "bonded" (connected) to the primary building ground (the NEC calls it the "primary grounding electrode system"). So I had to find where my electrical panel grounded, and connect to that. And that's when I discovered that the panel was grounded to a copper pipe that didn't go anywhere. So I started over from scratch. Back to Lowe's, but two more ground rods and a long length of #6 wire. I drove the two new ground rods in the front of the house, near the well and near the electrical panel. Then I ran a new grounding #6 conductor from the panel to the first new ground rod, and then from that to the second new grounding rod. And then I ran another #6 wire from the supplemental ground rod in the back of the house through the basement and connected it to the new ground rods in the front. That's the "bonding" jumper. What that does is to ensure that everything is at the same electrical potential, which is what's necessary to prevent stray currents such as what you're encountering. This is why I'm interested in where those "new" add-on grounding wires go, because I suspect they aren't bonded to the building's primary grounding electrode system. And that is important. My panel is grounded to a rod in the ground like it's supposed to. There are no "extra" grounds at the panel meaning whatever those go to isn't bonded with the panel. The problem is that I have no idea where they are grounded to and I found a random ground cut off in the crawlspace as well as a bunch of PEX so I'm sure that ground bonding is missing and the ground may not even be grounded at all anymore. The problem still would persist tho as I shouldn't have voltage on the ground without a fault right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Dzimm said: My panel is grounded to a rod in the ground like it's supposed to. There are no "extra" grounds at the panel meaning whatever those go to isn't bonded with the panel. The problem is that I have no idea where they are grounded to and I found a random ground cut off in the crawlspace as well as a bunch of PEX so I'm sure that ground bonding is missing and the ground may not even be grounded at all anymore. The problem still would persist tho as I shouldn't have voltage on the ground without a fault right? Correct -- there should be current in the grounding side only if/when there's a fault in the system. I hate to suggest that it's time to spend money, but -- it may be time to spend some money. It's almost impossible to track down phantom problems in an electrical system, especially when the wiring is all concealed in existing construction. You may need to hire a qualified electrician to run a "Megger" test to try to isolate which circuit or circuits is/are causing the problems. http://insulationresistancetest.com/ Not all electricians have the equipment to do a Megger test so, if you call someone in, be sure to ask if he/they have the equipment and if he/they are experienced and qualified to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, Eagle said: Correct -- there should be current in the grounding side only if/when there's a fault in the system. I hate to suggest that it's time to spend money, but -- it may be time to spend some money. It's almost impossible to track down phantom problems in an electrical system, especially when the wiring is all concealed in existing construction. You may need to hire a qualified electrician to run a "Megger" test to try to isolate which circuit or circuits is/are causing the problems. http://insulationresistancetest.com/ Not all electricians have the equipment to do a Megger test so, if you call someone in, be sure to ask if he/they have the equipment and if he/they are experienced and qualified to use it. That's an interesting piece of equipment. I've actually got a guy coming Monday from a larger company so we will see what he comes up with, maybe he will have that equipment. This whole thing makes no sense to me at all. This morning I went through circuit 1 and individually disconnected each outlet to see what the voltage did and each one being disconnected individually caused a slight drop. It's almost like everything on that circuit is causing a fault except the first leg of wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Manche757 said: What are the amp ratings for your 220 circuits? I can not tell frim the pics of the panel. 2 30 amp and 2 20amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Dzimm said: 2 30 amp and 2 20amp. Your drier should be on a 30 amp circuit. Most kitchen stoves draw 40 - 50 amps. If less that 50 amps, the circuit should be on 8ga wire. As it approaches 50 amps, it may be on 6ga. If your stove draws more than 50 amps, 6 ga, 50 amp circuit is required. it looks like your stove circuit is seriously under sized and a fire hazard. Given the time period that he house was built, built in ovens were fashionable with separate built in stove tops. Those would have been on separate circuits with each drawing less power. Chances are when someone remodeled your kitchen, they pulled one of those lines to your stove outlet. Check the plate on the back of your stove for rating. The 220 breaker that you don't know what it is hooked to may be the other kitchen oven/burner line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Manche757 said: The two loose white wires may be hooked to the grounding lugs on the boxes. Wiggle the loose end and look for movement at the box end. Did you see this above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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