Home Electrical issue

[Dzimm]

Just now, Jeep Driver said:

OK, I was guessing. 

 

Many of the houses I worked on in FL from the 50s lets say was wired with the same wiring you have.....was not uncommon for the time. 

I just read into wiring history a bit.  So I've got a very late version of sheathed cable, just before the introduction of NM.  It does say that the first generation of sheathed cable from the 1930s had a life expectancy of 25 years. 

 

The different versions of sheathed cable don't look very different so I'd imagine your spot on Eagle with mine being about that 25yr lifespan.  So yeah it may be time to upgrade... 

[Eagle]

44 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

Why would they ever use a wire with such a short life expectancy?  

 

You guys are lucky you have the option to stay away from this mess.  I'm seriously debating just running all new wiring.

 

When it was new, it was high tech. I doubt they knew it would start to degrade after 25 years.

 

I'm not staying out (perhaps against my better judgement), but there's only so much anyone can offer from hundreds of miles away. If the problem is degraded insulation, that's exactly what a megger test is intended to show. That's why I reminded you to discuss it with the boss man.

[Dzimm]

1 minute ago, Eagle said:

 

When it was new, it was high tech. I doubt they knew it would start to degrade after 25 years.

 

I'm not staying out (perhaps against my better judgement), but there's only so much anyone can offer from hundreds of miles away. If the problem is degraded insulation, that's exactly what a megger test is intended to show. That's why I reminded you to discuss it with the boss man.

I will definitely ask him about it.  He already told the guy that was out to recommend I spend the money on a full rewire but the guy insisted the boss man come take a look so we'll see. 

 

I planned on adding lights in the crawlspace and wiring to run the sump and fans rather than using extension cords.  I'm also redoing all the kitchen lighting (installing cans) plus replacing the wiring to the back bedroom and living room due to the sensitive electronics so it may just make sense to do it all while I'm in there since I've got easy access in the attic and crawlspace.  Today I ran a home run for the microwave and it took all of 30-45 minutes since its so open up there.  and imagine that, with a properly wired Romex I've got no issues on that circuit.

 

Even hundreds of miles away the help is much appreciated, obviously you guys have more experience with this older wiring than I do and when it's as hacked up as mine is, I'm way over my head with troubleshooting it.

[Eagle]

Looking at the photos again, it looks like your breaker panel is filled to capacity. If you're going to add lights and permanent power for a sump pump in the crawlspace, I would suggest that they be on their own circuits. (Especially the sump pump.) There is a critter sometimes called a "split breaker," which occupies one space in the panel but is actually two breakers, controlling two independent circuits. They are useful for sneaking in one or two additional circuits, as a less expensive option than replacing the breaker panel with a larger one, or adding a sub-panel. BUT ... not all breaker panels are listed for use with split breakers, so that's another thing to discuss with the electrician when he's there.

 

https://www.thespruce.com/tandem-breakers-1152736

 

https://www.oneprojectcloser.com/tandem-aka-split-or-double-breakers-for-a-full-breaker-panel/

 

http://www.startribune.com/how-to-know-when-tandem-circuit-breakers-can-be-used-aka-cheater-breakers/140688183/

 

Try to anticipate your future wants and needs now. If you're tinkering with the whole house, now is the time to at least provide for some future expansion if you think you'll need it. Whatever you think you'll need probably won't be enough anyway. My house was built in 1950 with a fuse panel. Somewhere around 1998 (or so) that started creating a lot of problems, so I replaced it with a new breaker panel that had several more spaces than the old panel had fuses. Then I used up all the extra spaces, and added a sub-panel with eight more spaces. And now I only have two of those left, and I need to add a dedicated generator circuit, so I wish I had either used a bigger main panel, or a bigger sub-panel. I may replace the sub-panel at some point -- not sure what my plans are. (The sticky wicket is that to go from an 8-space panel to a 12-space panel will mean a VERY big jump in the size of the enclosure, and I don't think it will fit the space available for it.

[Dzimm]

3 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Looking at the photos again, it looks like your breaker panel is filled to capacity. If you're going to add lights and permanent power for a sump pump in the crawlspace, I would suggest that they be on their own circuits. (Especially the sump pump.) There is a critter sometimes called a "split breaker," which occupies one space in the panel but is actually two breakers, controlling two independent circuits. They are useful for sneaking in one or two additional circuits, as a less expensive option than replacing the breaker panel with a larger one, or adding a sub-panel. BUT ... not all breaker panels are listed for use with split breakers, so that's another thing to discuss with the electrician when he's there.

 

https://www.thespruce.com/tandem-breakers-1152736

 

https://www.oneprojectcloser.com/tandem-aka-split-or-double-breakers-for-a-full-breaker-panel/

 

http://www.startribune.com/how-to-know-when-tandem-circuit-breakers-can-be-used-aka-cheater-breakers/140688183/

 

Try to anticipate your future wants and needs now. If you're tinkering with the whole house, now is the time to at least provide for some future expansion if you think you'll need it. Whatever you think you'll need probably won't be enough anyway. My house was built in 1950 with a fuse panel. Somewhere around 1998 (or so) that started creating a lot of problems, so I replaced it with a new breaker panel that had several more spaces than the old panel had fuses. Then I used up all the extra spaces, and added a sub-panel with eight more spaces. And now I only have two of those left, and I need to add a dedicated generator circuit, so I wish I had either used a bigger main panel, or a bigger sub-panel. I may replace the sub-panel at some point -- not sure what my plans are. (The sticky wicket is that to go from an 8-space panel to a 12-space panel will mean a VERY big jump in the size of the enclosure, and I don't think it will fit the space available for it.

Yeah I've got 5 spaces left as of now.  The bottom right breaker was in just to fill a void in the panel cover so I used it for the microwave.  One of the 220s isn't actually used (I still need to figure out which one) so taking that out will make 7 available.  If I use 2 for the crawlspace and 2 more to split up the upstairs, I will have 3 spots left.  Should be enough for our needs in this house for as long as we own it, I hope.  If not I can add a sub panel or use split breakers if the panel accepts them.  This panel was just put in shortly before we bought it so I don't really want to replace it already.

[BeaterComanche86]

16 hours ago, Dzimm said:

Why would they ever use a wire with such a short life expectancy?  

 

You guys are lucky you have the option to stay away from this mess.  I'm seriously debating just running all new wiring.

 

As a electrician I would defiantly suggest a rewire of your house. Now that your grounds are up to code at the panel running new Romex would be the best way to have piece of mind. And since there’s ghost voltage basically everywhere and your circuit breakers aren’t tripping even though your getting voltage to ground your wiring needs to be updated. This is a huge task but in one of your earlier posts you mentioned you have easy access to all the outlets and switches via the attic and craw space so since you have the ability I would do a rewire a room at a time starting with the kitchen. Then you can run your wire directly to what it needs to feed with no mystery boxes or splices. Do a little over time and then you will know that everything is done correctly.

[Eagle]

Any update from the boss man's visit to the scene of the crime?

[Dzimm]

1 hour ago, Eagle said:

Any update from the boss man's visit to the scene of the crime?

Next Wednesday.  He's in Colorado until Tuesday.  

[Eagle]

Well, phooey. I guess I'll have to put my curiosity on hold for a week.

 

Meanwhile, though, reading about and thinking about your predicament has spurred me to getting busy on upgrading my breaker panels. I have Siemans panels, so I've been looking on Siemans' web site, Lowe's, and Home despot. The sub-panel I have now is 8 spaces. They're all rated for split breakers ... except that I've got several 240-volt, 2-pole breakers in there, so that takes care of that. After much searching, I found a 12 space / 24 circuit, main lug panel that will fit in the space available. Perfect as a sub-panel. Unfortunately, neither my local Lowe's nor any Home Despot with 100 miles has it in stock, so I'll have to special order it.

[Dzimm]

Master electrician came.  He was confused why we've got 50s era wiring in a house built in 67 but is guessing they were using up old stock on a house that didn't require permits to build since it's a small town in the middle of nowhere. 

 

The grounds are definitely some kind of half finished add on and he's almost positive that binding the plumbing to the panel and ensuring all the PEX is jumped, it will solve the random voltages.  He said that the plumbing is fine to use for the ground in our case as long as it is properly bonded with the panel and all the PEX is jumped.  

 

His solution is to run a 6 gauge ground from the panel to both sides of the meter and since my water meter is on the opposite side of the house than the electrical panel, I can run that ground along the plumbing and clamp it as I go to also double as a jumper for the PEX.  Any sections of PEX that aren't jumped by the 6ga, he said use 12ga wire to jump since some of the add on ground we can't find, he wants all plumbing grounded to ensure there isn't anything tied in a wall somewhere that isn't tied in the crawlspace.

 

Ultimately he said I should be considering rewiring the entire house since its not a grounded system and the ground that is there, is not ideal.  

 

He wanted $500 to do it so off to Menards I go.

[Manche757]

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

Master electrician came.  He was confused why we've got 50s era wiring in a house built in 67 but is guessing they were using up old stock on a house that didn't require permits to build since it's a small town in the middle of nowhere. 

 

 

Your house was wired to code for the time that it was built and was as safe as any other electrical system of that time.   The conductive water piping was a safe ground until the advent of non-metal waster piping.  The city water lines are below the frost line and is likely more than 5 feet deep in the ground.  Compare that to an 8 foot metal rod that is used now. City water line or 8 foot grounding rod - in either case it is the secondary ground after the power company ground. 

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

His solution is to run a 6 gauge ground from the panel to both sides of the meter and since my water meter is on the opposite side of the house than the electrical panel, I can run that ground along the plumbing and clamp it as I go to also double as a jumper for the PEX.  Any sections of PEX that aren't jumped by the 6ga, he said use 12ga wire to jump since some of the add on ground we can't find, he wants all plumbing grounded to ensure there isn't anything tied in a wall somewhere that isn't tied in the crawlspace.

Reactivating the ground system in a piecemeal way will create confusion for anyone looking at the system later. You found a grounding wire near the water line that was 6 ga with a jumper around the meter in case the meter had to be removed for servicing.  When the new electric panel was put in, the electrician disconnected it from the panel and probably pushed it down in the wall below the electric panel rather than cutting it out.  

 

Recommendatiion:  Stay with the updated 8 foot grounding rod there now.  Regardless you still have the leaking hot to ground to find. With all the magical CC help, you can find where grounds are in the system.  The 2 white wires under the sink may have been an attempt to ground to the water pipe by use of a saddle clamp ground.  

[Dzimm]

11 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Recommendatiion:  Stay with the updated 8 foot grounding rod there now.  Regardless you still have the leaking hot to ground to find. With all the magical CC help, you can find where grounds are in the system.  The 2 white wires under the sink may have been an attempt to ground to the water pipe by use of a saddle clamp ground.  

I'm not even sure there is a leaking hot anywhere as stuff on the same circuits has no voltage in a plastic box(there are a couple random plastic boxes) but does in a metal one.  Metal boxes without any sort of added grounding are showing voltage, which tells me I've either got leaking hot at every box in the house, or it's a weird phantom voltage from the electrical field around the wire going into the metal box.  

 

The grounding rod is definitely not coming out, we are basically just bonding the panel back into the water pipes at the meter like it's supposed to be.  It will run from the panel and be clamped to both sides of the meter.  As far as the PEX jumping, I've got just as big of a mess of water pipe to straighten out as it was obviously done by the same guy who modified the wiring so it's temporary for now.  

 

It's all temporary as I will be rewiring the house slowly.  Basically at this point, it's make it as safe as it can be now and work on properly fixing it over time.

 

I've got everything I need to do the ground stuff as well as everything to completely rewire the crawlspace properly already, it's just a matter of time to get this done, then I'm moving on to the main part of the house. 

[Eagle]

Did you happen to ask the maestro about running a megger test?

[Dzimm]

4 hours ago, Eagle said:

Did you happen to ask the maestro about running a megger test?

Crap I knew I forgot to ask him something.  He wouldn't do anything else really under my diagnostic because we were into a more advanced repair so he likely would have charged me for it.  He also didn't come with the truck with tools, he came in the business suv as he knew I wouldn't be home long enough for him to actually do anything anyway.  

[Eagle]

Makes sense.

 

Your plan sounds solid. Get the grounding and bonding squared away ASAP, and then get busy rewiring circuits as soon as you possibly can. I'd suggest that you start by removing those unused 240-volt circuits in the kitchen.