Home Electrical issue

[Dzimm]

6 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Looks like i lost you.   I need to run.  I will not be near computer the rest of today

Sorry just eating some lunch.  Okay I'll keep troubleshooting. Thanks!

[Gene]

Hi everyone,

Lots of really good information in this thread, for a very very confusing situation.  I do not mean any of this to imply that I am disagreeing with any of the suggestions given so far, or that any of it was in error. I am just sort of trying to tie it all together.

Some basics:

Electricity has to flow in a complete circuit. Ideally, it comes in through the hot (black), and back through the neutral (white). Ideally no current should flow through the grounding system (bare wire).

So why is the grounding system there? Lightning protection. If there should be a lightning strike at a pole near your home, or your home directly, the grounding system tries to dump excess current into, literally, the ground. The earth. Which the power company grounds at the pole as well.

So how his grounding established at the main breaker panel (electric service)? Traditionally, there would be a wire, usually 4 gauge although 6-gauge armored was acceptable, run to a water pipe. There is a long, long length of pipe buried outside of the house, which then connects to the cities distribution system. This was back in the day when all water piping was metal. Obviously, plastic piping, whether in the home, or used by the utility, messes up the value of this as a ground.  If you are served by a well, then the well casing, typically metal and deep, serves as the ground.

Largely because of these concerns, code was changed to require a driven ground electrode. This is 1/2" or 5/8"  diameter rod, 8 foot long, although frequently (and illegally) if the soil is very rocky, then that  8 foot depth could not be reached and that top of the rod would be sawed off, leaving a shorter rod. By the letter of code, if one rod is less than 25 ohms resistance to ground, that is sufficient. If it is more than 25 ohms, or if this cannot be tested, then a second ground rod, 8 foot or more from the first 1, would be necessary.

So far, so good. But what if you are using an electric appliance or power tool that has a short circuit, and the case becomes energized? Then, if you are on damp ground, or near a sink or something else connected to a water pipe, then current could flow from the energized appliance, through you, into the ground. Not a desired result.

So, some time in the 1950s or so, a third wire was added. This is the bare, grounding wire. This connects to the grounding bar at the circuit breaker panel, and is connected to every outlook box, and every device, in the house. This goes to the third prong in a plug, and in objects with a 3 prong plug, this grounding wire is connected to the frame of the appliance.

As someone mentioned, if the cable is armored, that is wrapped in metal, then there may not be a separate grounding wire, but the metal of the cable may be used as the grounding conductor. This is problematic, because the resistance may be high.



So much for theory. In your home, I suspect all the original wiring was done using two wire cable, with no grounding wire. Then, as you are guessing, most likely someone came and tried to add a grounding wire to the system, going from box to box.

As several posters have noted, it is almost certain that this wire is not properly connected to the grounding bar at the circuit breaker panel. You would have two choices. One, if possible, would be to trace where this added grounding wire goes, and extend it to the grounding bar at the circuit breaker panel. The other would be to disconnect it completely.

If you disconnected completely, what about shock protection? You should then use GFI receptacles (ground fault interrupter). These sense when there is even a tiny difference between the current coming out of the hot, and returning through the neutral, if these amounts are not exactly the same then the GFI device trips. This would provide shock protection.



Back to theory for a moment. What about tying grounds together at sub panels, and the 3 wire versus 4 wire range or drier?

Ideally, the grounding system should be kept totally completely separate from the neutral system. This means that, at sub panel, all of the grounding wires should be connected to a grounding bar, which is connected (bonded) to the metal case of the panel. All of the neutral (white) wires should be on the neutral bar, which is NOT connected to the metal of the case.  Back in the day, and I am not sure how far back it have to go, possibly 1950s or so, it was actually recommended that grounds and neutral's be tied together at sub panels.

A straight 240 V load, like a water heater, does not need a neutral. So 3 wires, the two hot and one grounding, are sufficient. However, a stove or drier usually has a 120 V load as well, a light bulb, timer, or so forth. Back in the day, there were 3 wires, 2 hots, and a combined neutral/grounding. This neutral/grounding would, by design, carry the return current of the 120 V load. Modern codes required that there be 4 wires, 2 hots, a white neutral to carry the 120 V return, and grounding, not carrying any current.

While the above is true, I do not think that the grounds and neutrals being combined  is really adding to your situation  UNLESS the range or drier neutral is tied in to the added grounding wire. This could possibly cause some back flow.



One final suggestion. If you are using a digital volt meter, these can be very very sensitive, and pickup induced, irrelevant voltage. Most electricians, I think, would verify all of your readings using an analog tester with a needle, and in these situations  they really really like what is called a "Wiggy", which actually puts a load on the circuit. This helps to eliminate ""ghost voltages".

Hope the above was a little bit helpful. Good luck!

 

Gene

[Manche757]

Good morning Dzimm. Hope you had a productive night at work.  Do want to proceed further?

[Dzimm]

44 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Good morning Dzimm. Hope you had a productive night at work.  Do want to proceed further?

Good morning.  I'm doing little bits of troubleshooting as I have time but I've got some other stuff I need to get done before work today so it'll be spotty.  I really appreciate your continued effort to help me with this!

 

Not much has changed.  I did a lot of looking into circuit 1 and couldn't figure out where the hot was coming from.  I unhooked each receptical from the far end forward and the problem never went away.  I even ran a temporary wire from the panel to the front of the circuit to bypass the wire in the wall and it gave the same result so I've moved on from that one for now.

 

I've been pulling all the fixtures and boxes on the other trouble circuits finding the terrible tapped connections and fixing them but not much else.  I did find a light switch wire that had been arching between the neutral and the box(which is hot) so I've got that pulled out of the wall for now so it can't arch.  This box is on one of the trouble circuits.

 

I did find something interesting with that box however, there is a light switch in it that controls a light in the entryway.  The power comes in at the light and they have it wired so the white wire carries power to the switch and back to the light on the black wire.  I unhooked the wire on the light end so it no longer would have power to the switch.  However, somehow it has power on both the wires when it's completely disconnected from the hot source and no matter what position the switch is in.  I'm currently focusing on this wire currently.

 

One other notable thing is that I went through the crawl space to check for problems there and found a wire dangling with an exposed end that showed hot with the proximity tester.  So I traced it to where it came through the floor but it wasn't in any of the nearby boxes above it.  So I got my multimeter and it read 2v between the wires, just like the boxes upstairs.  It ran up against another wire that carried power through to the bathroom and bedrooms (non trouble circuit) and out if curiosity I cut the dangling wite further back before it touched the live wire.  Low and behold it no longer read 2v back there.  The short section that still ran against the live wire however read 2v on both ends of it.  Do you suppose it's possible that there is just interference going on between the wires that touch causing things to have power when they shouldn't?

[Manche757]

You have been busy.  The light switch in the foyer: You may be looking at a switch leg.  Leave it alone for now.  Careful of hot wires under the house.  Multiple cases of electrocution occur there.  A case in particular:  a man was laying on the ground on his back drilling a hole in the floor hits a hot wire with his drill and dies.  Someone who worked on your house previously did not know enough about electricity and didn't give a sheit about what he did know. I understand that you have other things to do and will indicate some things for you to do as you get time.  

[Manche757]

Terms of engagement:  Don't make any changes to your electrical system without making it known first.  Doing so may mean starting the process over.  In a mathematical equation, change only one variable at a time.   We good here?

[Dzimm]

11 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Terms of engagement:  Don't make any changes to your electrical system without making it known first.  Doing so may mean starting the process over.  In a mathematical equation, change only one variable at a time.   We good here?

Yes.  Any change I make for testing gets put back the way it was before hand, aside from wire nuts but the same wires that were in the tape are being put in the nut.

[Manche757]

No, you have done good work.   But if you have children pets, or sleep walkers in the house that are at risk, leave things as they are

 

[Manche757]

Up until you found  that hot exposed wire under house, I was not overly concerned about the prior guys deeds.  Hot under the house is as dangerous as it gets.  You are fully grounded. You can correct what he did.  

 

[Manche757]

The existence of problems has been determined.  Hoping for a quick find and fix of a problem, multiple issues have been found but most remain.  Now for a more thorough approach.  Remember the Comanche Club loves you, don't get fried

 

 

[Manche757]

Methodology:  Inspect the whole system to the extent that it is in view.  Next start at the main breaker and isolate as many problems to individual circuits as possible. 

[Manche757]

First. Visually inspect as much of the system as you can.  Do not make changes unless you find something obviously dangerous. It might mean having to start over, but better to live on.

[Manche757]

Take pics of what you see as possible problems like you did with the ceiling box and the bathroom outlet and kitchen outlets

[Manche757]

Unknown as to the existence of grounding wire attached to the back of boxes other than the (3?) in the kitchen:  When under the house did you see evidence of grounding lines there?

 

[Dzimm]

6 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Unknown as to the existence of grounding wire attached to the back of boxes other than the (3?) in the kitchen:  When under the house did you see evidence of grounding lines there?

 

I did find a roughly 6 gauge grounding wire on the pipes attached to the pipe on each side of the water meter and then runs out the cinderblock.  There is another maybe 12 gauge green wire that's clamped to the pipe and runs about 6 feet across the floor joists and is cut off.  

 

We did find a single white wire in the attic that appears to connect two of the circuit 1 boxes but otherwise nothing.

14 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

First. Visually inspect as much of the system as you can.  Do not make changes unless you find something obviously dangerous. It might mean having to start over, but better to live on.

This is pretty much what I've been doing.  I'm now at the point of doing light fixtures as all the trouble outlets and switches have been pulled out and inspected.

[Manche757]

 

4 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

I did find a roughly 6 gauge grounding wire on the pipes attached to the pipe on each side of the water meter and then runs out the cinderblock.  There is another maybe 12 gauge green wire that's clamped to the pipe and runs about 6 feet across the floor joists and is cut off.  

 

We did find a single white wire in the attic that appears to connect two of the circuit 1 boxes but otherwise nothing.

This is pretty much what I've been doing.  I'm now at the point of doing light fixtures as all the trouble outlets and switches have been pulled out and inspected.

The 6 ga wire is the ground to your original service. Leave it.    Leave the 12 ga for now

[Manche757]

Can we focus on inspection of the grounding system you see?

[Dzimm]

5 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Can we focus on inspection of the grounding system you see?

I can't find where it goes.  Other than the wire in the attic that runs down the wall on each end, there is no other wires anywhere that I can see.

[Manche757]

What wall?  Are you in the attic?

 

[Dzimm]

3 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

What wall?  Are you in the attic?

 

No I was yesterday.  The wire up there appears to run between two outlets on circuit 1.  I didn't do any real digging in the insulation to find anything else because I'm almost positive it's asbestos.

[Manche757]

Let me ask you to leave what you are doing and focus on the grounds.  Initially, you found wires connected to the back of the boxes in the kitchen and said they were brown. Those may have been installed as part of your initial electrical system.  My knowledge of your house is not better than the answers and pictures you give. There may have been a system that linked metal boxes together on each phase from the panel.  Go to one of the bedrooms that are least likely to have been modified by someone previously.  Take the cover off of an outlet.  With a screw driver or utility knife, punch a slot below the box. Narrow enough so that place plate will cover it.  With flashlight, see if you find wires there. Note color of wire. Also if you see 1 wire or two.  If two, it might be draped over a screw on the back that continues on to the next box. 

[Manche757]

Also look for the threaded end of screw on the  inside of the box that might be the grounding screw on the back

[Dzimm]

34 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Let me ask you to leave what you are doing and focus on the grounds.  Initially, you found wires connected to the back of the boxes in the kitchen and said they were brown. Those may have been installed as part of your initial electrical system.  My knowledge of your house is not better than the answers and pictures you give. There may have been a system that linked metal boxes together on each phase from the panel.  Go to one of the bedrooms that are least likely to have been modified by someone previously.  Take the cover off of an outlet.  With a screw driver or utility knife, punch a slot below the box. Narrow enough so that place plate will cover it.  With flashlight, see if you find wires there. Note color of wire. Also if you see 1 wire or two.  If two, it might be draped over a screw on the back that continues on to the next box. 

I've inspected a few boxes throughout the rest of the house and the kitchen and bathroom are the only ones with the ground wire.  I peaked around the edges of the boxes and didn't find anything on any of the sides.  Some of the wires are white and some a brown so likely was whatever wire they had available when it was done.

 

Also forgot to note, there is a mix of copper and PEX under the house so if it was grounded to the water pipes originally it's likely not now.  

 

 

[Manche757]

You might know most of this already.  I apologize in advance if i insult your intelligence.

 

Your power company has responsibility up to the meter base, i.e. service entrance cable and meter base itself.  Your responsibility begins at the meter base.  As you know you have 3 leads coming into your main panel.  Two 110-120 ac volt, 60 cycle (meaning each pulses 60 times a second) phases  and a ground.  For purposes of illustration assume above ground power lines.  The ground runs from your meter base to the power pole.  There is a bare cable that runs from utility pole to utility pole. At each utility pole, another bare cable is attached and runs down the pole and 6 feet into the ground.  Earth ground.  For redundancy, there is another ground. Initially to your water line to the street and later to the grounding rod that you pounded into the ground

[Manche757]

The purpose of the secondary ground is if the first ground to the power company fails.  If there was no secondary ground and the fist one failed, current would flow to the path of least resistance.  Possibly through you or your loved ones.  When your house was built in 1967, the secondary ground was through your metal conductive cold water line that was hooked to the metal city water main.  You found that under your house.  You also found a grounding wire around the water meter.  The purpose of the wire around the water meter was in the event the water meter failed and had to be replaced.  Water meters are usually brass and conductive.  If that grounding wire was not there, removal of the meter would have at least temporarily left the system without a secondary ground.  There may be a grounding rod on the other side of the cinder block foundation.  Usually ground attachments are left exposed.  They ideally would be attached to a cold water pipe where it first entered the building in case some piping was disconnected.  Often, the electrical line from the electric panel was attached to the cold water inlet piping on an electric hot water heater so that it would remain visble.