battery and alternator and winch

[ruralandalone]

In adding a decent winch to my beast, I'm looking for advice about my charging system.

 

1) is there any easy way to tell which alternator (I understand that there were different models with different outputs) is in my truck?

2) What is the largest battery anyone has shoehorned  into the normal location?

3) Any recommended battery?

4) If a second battery is added, where does one put it?  (Just trying to consider all my options)

5) in wiring the winch, is it preferable to runa ground direct to the battery, is is it ok to ground to the frame?

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance

 

[DirtyComanche]

What year and engine?  I'm going to answer assuming it's a Renix 4L since that's most common.

 

1) All factory ones are small, 105A I think?  Works fine.  Some aftermarket rewinds are more or less.  It's actually a slightly modded GM alternator, so you can use a GM one to get more jam...

2) Group 34 is about what you can do

3) Something AGM, not Optima.

4) Mean Green probably still sells a kit, I think it's rubbish, it mounts the second battery sideways (like, on it's side) or some garbage.  If you remove the airbox you can build (or buy a euro diesel XJ tray) and fit another one on that side.  I relocated mine to against the firewall, so it could be used as a second battery location, but you can't run A/C if you do that, and it required a lot of fab work.

5) Back to the battery with the negative.  I recommend having a disconnect in the works with winch wiring.  AMP makes some nice ones, I could dig up some P/Ns and pics of how I did it on my JK probably.

 

Relocated battery at firewall:

 

[ruralandalone]

It is a 2.5L inline 4 in a 1986 comanche. 

Thanks for the comments.

Why not an optima?  (I'll take your word for it, but just curious)

DO you have a battery isolator installed, with 2 batteries?

Any idea what current rating  is appropriate for an ammeter, should I put one in?

[Jtrux]

You might be overthinking it a little. Get a manual hand throttle and stick it on the shifter and ramp the RPMs up a little during heavy winching or just do it manually with your foot if you're able to stay in the cab ( not always the case).

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

[DirtyComanche]

1 hour ago, ruralandalone said:

It is a 2.5L inline 4 in a 1986 comanche. 

Thanks for the comments.

Why not an optima?  (I'll take your word for it, but just curious)

DO you have a battery isolator installed, with 2 batteries?

Any idea what current rating  is appropriate for an ammeter, should I put one in?

 

Is that a v belt accessory drive?  There's a good chance it's only a 60~amp alternator then, but again it's basically a GM alternator so you can get a larger one from another application.  And there's aftermarket setups available.  I'm not very familiar with the 2.5L, or the pre-87 XJ/MJs, but I know there was multiple accessory styles and alternators used.

 

Optima's build quality and QC went to crap some years back and I don't trust that they have rectified the issues, and they were denying warranty claims all over.  IMHO they command a very premium price for a product that is not superior.  Odyssey/Sears Platinum AGMs are a superior product for a lower price, and there is certainly many other AGMs on the market.  Optimas are actually a gel cell/spiral wound setup, which IMHO makes no damn sense anyways.  That said, there is absolutely no need for 95%+ of people to spend the money on an AGM battery, personally I like them a lot as they perform better, do not cause corrosion, and won't leak if you're way off camber, but high quality flooded lead acid batteries certainly work and they do cost less money.  I think most OEMs (save hybrids and electric vehicles) still use flooded lead acid batteries, so they can't be that bad.

 

I only have one battery on that vehicle (it's actually an XJ).  The inner fenders are stretched and a battery would not fit in the stock location or the other side.  I do not believe in mounting batteries in the passenger area of a vehicle, so I had to find somewhere it would fit.  Much trial and error lead to that location.  Of the dual battery vehicles I have owned I have never run an isolator.  An isolator is for if you want to have a starting battery, and a 'house' battery to run accessories while the engine is off, as this will mean you will not inadvertently kill your starting battery.  There is no advantage, in fact there is only disadvantage, to having an isolator in a situation where the second battery is not being used as a house battery; being that you've complicated the system, increased costs, added a failure point, and decreased the ampacity of the wiring install as a whole.  If the second battery is being used as a house battery it is also typically/recommended to use a deep cycle battery, which may or may not be suitable for all usage.

 

Unless you're planning to do a lot of long pulls while winching, a second battery is rarely needed.  It may be an unneeded expense and complication for you.  Also, as Jtrux is implying, the output of an alternator at idle is much less than maximum (a 60 amp alternator may put out a measly 15 amps at idle), and a high idle/throttle lock/hand throttle will go a long ways to allowing the alternator to perform better.  That said, if you've got a wimpy alternator, a second battery will certainly bandaid the situation decently.

 

What winch are you buying?

 

And an ammeter is IMHO a silly do-dad at best.  I'm assuming you actually have a working voltage gauge or charge indicating light.

[ruralandalone]

The winch is a Keeper brand, 8500 lb, with about a 320 amp draw.

So - based on the conversation so far,

direct cabling for both positive and negative,  (2 ga)

no ammeter,

bigger alternator

no second battery

new battery, (likely sealed standard battery) maybe group 34, the largest CCA I can find.

hand throttle if I can figure out a way to do it, if I can't reach the drivers seat with the remote..

[ruralandalone]

I found one affordable alternator upgrade which I think should be plug and play:

https://www.quadratec.com/products/55100_01.htm

 

Any comments on this?

[DirtyComanche]

7 hours ago, ruralandalone said:

I found one affordable alternator upgrade which I think should be plug and play:

https://www.quadratec.com/products/55100_01.htm

 

Any comments on this?

 

Should work.

 

Interchangeable P/N on Summit, which has a lot of positive reviews:

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pwm-7294/overview/

 

Or more amps or more money:

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pwm-57295/overview/

 

There's other options in there if you look for a 12si alternator.

[ruralandalone]

I thin something in the 100 amp range should do the trick, based on comments above.  If I go to 100 (or so) amps, do I need to upgrade any wiring, or can I just swap it in?

[Jeep Driver]

Get the Powermaster, mine puts out 101 at idle. 

 

Get rid of your air box and mount a second battery there...........mounts are made, look around. 

 

If  you want to spend some bucks.......get an Optima deep cycle. 

 

[ruralandalone]

got a model number or website?

[schardein]

I'll add my 2 cents:

 

Run the ground back to the battery.  A winch draws a lot of amps, it will work better with a dedicated ground ran back to the battery.

 

Top posts can handle more amps than side posts.  I've converted several Jeeps to side terminals by installing new/custom battery cables for the engine starter and ground.  Then get a dual terminal battery, and use the top posts for the winch only.  I use these top post terminals:  https://www.amazon.com/Ovatium-Military-Battery-Terminal-Package/dp/B01HOUGRI2/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1514000126&sr=8-10&keywords=military+battery+terminals

 

You are probably aware that the positive and negative top posts are different sizes.  With these terminals, you can unbolt the positive cable to the winch at the battery (without disconnecting the terminal itself) for cheap safety insurance.

 

Or, you can splice in some Anderson disconnects if you want to be high tech:  https://www.amazon.com/Anderson-Power-Products-Multipole-Connector/dp/B01KZF8G1Y/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1514000341&sr=8-4-fkmr0&keywords=anderson+disconnect+sb350

 

Shop around and you can find a better price.  You would need two of the housings and 4 terminals.  This is the setup I run on my off road Jeep.  The connection is near the grill.  I leave the winch disconnected unless I am using it.  I have a pair of jumper cables with an anderson disconnect on one end, so I can jump someone without raising my hood.  These come in different sizes, make sure you get the 350 amp model.  They can use up to a 2/0 cable.  I use 1/0 welding cable for my winch power cables.

 

If your battery and alternator are in good shape, you will be able to winch fine.  If you are making a long pull, you may have to take a break to let the battery charge.  In my experience, one rarely uses the winch as much as you think you will.

 

A bigger consideration is that the winch has max pulling power on the first wrap of wire rope on the drum.  When making a short pull, it can be better to run out more line and use a pulley to double it back to the Jeep.  This does two things, it gets more cable off the drum to increase pulling power, and using the pulley doubles the pulling power again-- double win.

 

On dual batteries-- I've ran them before in full size trucks.  I currently ran dual batteries in my 2001 Silverado.  It is a factory type setup that uses a solenoid to disconnect the 2nd battery from the system when the truck is off.  So it can be used like a "house" battery as mentioned above.

 

While others experiences may vary, running dual batteries without some sort of isolator or solenoid to disconnect the two batteries while the vehicle is shut off can lead to the two batteries discharging each other.  Not a problem if you drive it every day, but leave it for a week or two... I've experienced this.  In my off road Jeep I run a good high amp alternator and an Optima dual terminal battery.  The only reason I would consider running a 2nd battery would be if I added some accessories that would be running with the Jeep off, like an ARB fridge/freezer... (which I recently added... sigh).

[schardein]

[ruralandalone]

Firstly, thank you for that extensive post. You learn something every day.  For example, I have never seen a battery that had BOTH top and side terminals, and I've never seen "military"  terminal connections - not even on MY military vehicles.  definitely gonna get some of those!

My plan for the winch, as it stands now, is a bit different.  My winch is mounted on a hitch plate, and is moveable.  My plan is to add a new home-built  bumper with hitch plate to the front (and rear), and permanently provide #2 welding cable leads, with anderson connectors, to front and back.   #2 'cause it is a lot less expensive than #1, at least as far as I have been able to find around here.

Given that I have a hydraulic dump box added to the truck, and have to run the electric pump occasionally as well, the largest fitable battery and an upgraded alternator make sense.  The battery could, I suspect, be longer than standard, as there is some room between the mounting plate and the alternator, but not  much wider or higher.  ( It would be a BAD THING to have the top posts hit the hood....)

I still wonder if any wiring associated with the change to the  100ish amp  alternator has to be upgraded as well.

[ruralandalone]

Further research suggests that all I have to do is upgrade the battery charging wire to 6 AWG.  Just in case anyone cared...

Merry Christmas!

[Jeep Driver]

Mine is 4 gauge from alt to bat, FWIW, with a Megafuse. 

[schardein]

Perhaps an interesting note, the late model XJs used a battery tray that was about an 1" shorter in length.  I'm not exactly sure, but I believe the change came in 96 when a battery temp sensor was added, and continued till the end in 2001.  So the older trays are better for fitting a larger battery, although I don't know if that extra inch makes a difference in a practical sense of being able to fit a larger, commonly available battery.  The mounting points are the same, so the older trays could be bolted in the later XJs and vice versa.

 

I'm not at all familiar with the pre-87 models that used the Chevy V6.  I think those trays are completely different.

 

Those battery terminals are used on Hummers.  I'm a Marine and have done many hours of preventative maintenance on them.  Those terminals will last a long time if you don't over tighten them.  Another plus is being able to unbolt the cable and leave the terminal in place, which also lends to their long life.