Death Wobble Issues

[marie]

I have been chasing down a front end death wobble for the last several months. I have replace almost all the steering and suspension components at this point. See list below for what has been replace, what has not. I have also listed the symptoms for easier reading.

 

Here is the gist of the history of the problem. It started out as the typical hit a bump on the highway and the front end shakes mercilessly and your heart skips a beat. I took it to a driveline specialist and they replaced the track bar and the steering dampener.  To no avail I might add, the rest of the work mentioned here I did myself. I took it to get the wheels balanced and the shop said my steering knuckle on the passenger side was bad. I replaced it, and when I took the old one back to napa, they said there was nothing wrong with it and it didn’t really need to be replaced, bummer, but I left the new one in anyway. As the months passed I kept replacing stuff and it would seem to get a little better but not go away. There has also been a consistent clunk whenever I back out of a tight parking space and cut the wheel tight. Then suddenly two weeks ago I couldn’t go over 30 mph or it would wobble and I didn’t even have to hit a bump. So I replaced the center link, tie rod end and lower control arms. This has still not fixed the problem! It is better, I can go 45 or 50 before hitting a bump and getting the wobble.

 

I think I am getting there but I’m running out of parts to put on and with the new center link, tie rod end (at the wheel) and control arms I have a much worse crunching clunk when I turn the wheel tight left at back up or starting speeds and an occasional clunk when turning at higher speeds, this is new!  :shake:  I did make sure that all the tie rod ends center link connections were nice and straight when I put it all together. The center link and tie rod ends at the wheels appear to be ever so slightly tilted now that it is all settled in, but it is not by much. (Should I re straighten them?)

 

Not sure what I should do next, besides a front end alignment. I’d like to wait until I’m done with new parts to do that. As I was typing this up it occurred to me that the crunch and clunk could be the steering knuckle on the driver’s side. How do I check that out without actually taking that part off? If I remove the wheel would I be able to tell if it is bad by wiggling it?

 

What say ye, any advice as to the next step? Thanks in advance for an help and don't be afraid to tell me if I've done something stupid. It happens to the best of us.

 

 

 

Symptoms at this point

Slight crunching sound and clunks twice when turning the wheel to the left at start up speed.

Wobble comes back at speeds over 45 when hitting a bump.

Occasionally clunks when turning left at normal street speed

Going downhill seems to make it more susceptible to the wobble

 

New parts I put on myself (except track bar and dampener)

Upper and lower ball joints

Sway bar links

Track bar

Lower control arms

Steering knuckle passenger side

Center link

Steering dampener

Tie rod end at wheel

Tie rod end at center link

Power steering gear box

Steering shaft from firewall to gear box

Rebuilt steering column in cab

Front brakes and rotors new last year

Rear brakes new last year

 

 

Parts left that look to be in good shape still

Sway bar itself looks fine

Pitman arm looks fine

Coil springs, look fine

Shocks, only 3 yrs. old and seem fine

Tie rod bar itself, seems fine

Drive axel, seems fine

 

Parts that may have wear

Upper control arms could use being replaced but I was nervous about getting the bushings out of the axel, I don’t have pneumatic tools

Steering knuckle driver’s side not sure how to check if it’s stable

[GHayduke]

Have one person lie under or in front of (or under) the nose and with the engine off, have another turn from left to right and look for any slop or shifting.  Have the person (or you) in front, listen for the clunk as well. sometimes when repalcing parts (like the track bar) the bolt hole it's self has become oval and allows the bolt to slop in the hole (even with a new trackbar)  This can happen on the axle end.

I found my new track bar bolt was smaller than the previouse one allowing some movement.  Also make sure everything is torqed to specs on the locating arms etc.

You could also have slop in a wheel bearing....

[marie]

Thanks for the quick reply GHayduke, but I already tried that one of the issues is it only makes the noises when it is in motion. It doesn't make the clunk or crunch when sitting still and turning the wheel. I tried walking next to it while someone else drove it but I couldn't pin point the clunk other than I (think) it's on the drivers side. Also, I was very careul to tighten everything to torch specs. Thank you! :)

[87MJTIM]

U-joimts?  I had DW on a 91 XJ.  Got 'em replaced; problem gone.

 

My $.02

[ftpiercecracker1]

First i must say it is refreshing to see such a well written and thought out post. Thank you for taking the time you did to give us the details so that we might be able to help as best we can, DW is probably the most frustrating obstacle when it comes to jeeps.

 

Here are a few things that i have come up with and how to check them. 

 

 

1. Wheel bearings

        Jack up the front end, support with jack stands/blocks of wood. Then firmly grab the top and bottom of one tire and try to wiggle it back and forth. Repeat for other side. A good wheel bearing should have ZERO play.

 

 

2. universal joints

          No jack needed, just use your hand and try to wiggle/move/jerk the universal joints. Do this for both sides and the front drive shaft. For the front driveshaft just move the shaft up and down vigorously. If there is any play whatsoever in any of the u-joints chuck em.

 

3. Warped rims

         Sadly there is no way that i am aware of to check for a warped rim, the only way to know is to have them checked by a professional shop.

 

 

 

A little back history on my experience with DW. I replaced every single steering component just like you did, only i did it twice. In the end it was a combination of two severely warped rims, a botched tire balancing job, a worn out universal joint on the front drive shaft, and several worn out tie rod ends, including the track bar.

[marie]

@ cpa tim, I totally forgot to put u-joints on the list of replaced parts, I knew I would forget something! I replaced them when I did the ball joints, it only made sense, everything was apart. Thank you for your input, it is a good thought. :)

 

@ftpiercecracker, I will definitely check those bearings, it is one of my top concerns. I replaced one side already so I will have a good comparison. The u-joints at the wheels are new, but I should check the one at the axle too! As for the warped rims, I'll bet if I laid the tire flat and put a straight edge across the tire and measured the distance to the rim with a micrometer all the way around and on both sides, I might see at least a little variance. It might not be a sound method but could be worth a shot. I'm sorry to hear you went through the same DW things and maybe even worse! Thanks for all your tips, they're great!

 

My biggest concern right now is the crunch/clunks. I am feeling a bit paranoid that something is going to snap!

 

I also have new motor mounts, for what ever that is worth, as well a new engine 3 yrs ago. I think I may have traded in my codependent boyfriends for a codependent relationship with my truck! I'm a diehard though, I'll never give up on my truck.... :yes:

[Eagle]

Clunks are "usually" (dangerous generalization) control arm related.

 

For the death wobble -- have the tires balanced (again). Or try just rotating front to rear, rear to front and see if anything changes. If so, then you know it's a tire balance issue.

[1987Comanche]

On Georgia it was a combination of bad u joints and a worn out trans mount.  I still have a random clunking/banging from the front end that only appears when changing directions or maneuvering in a tight parking lot, etc.  I did upper & lower control arm bushings, track bar, & checked tie rod ends, steering box, and, ball joints.  Everything seems ok but I still have the noise. 

[marie]

@ Eagle, I changed out the lower control arms already but have not done the uppers. I was nervous about getting the bushings in the axel out and not being able to get the new ones in as was my experience with the lowers to which I just bought the whole arm. I will rotate the tires, which would also let me know if maybe it is warped rims. Though I have to admit I will be a little paranoid about getting on the highway and purposely hitting a bump!!

 

@1987 Comanche, glad to hear Georgia is still hanging in there. I will check the trani mounts, I hadn't thought of that.  Doesn't the mystery clunk just drive you crazy?

 

Here is a thought, I replaced the gear box for the steering and bled it per the instructions 3 times now and it is still a little noisy (creaky) but there are no air bubbles in the fluid when I bleed it. I got it at Napa and I have always trusted their parts. I even got my replacement engine there. Is there a chance I got a bad one, or does it take a while for those to settle in sometimes?

[ftpiercecracker1]

Here is a thought, I replaced the gear box for the steering and bled it per the instructions 3 times now and it is still a little noisy (creaky) but there are no air bubbles in the fluid when I bleed it. I got it at Napa and I have always trusted their parts. I even got my replacement engine there. Is there a chance I got a bad one, or does it take a while for those to settle in sometimes?

 

 

Are you sure the mounting bolts are tight? Did you remember to put the spacer back in between the box and the frame rail? I believe is also has a front and a back to it, in other words it can be put in backwards.

 

 

On the DW issue, here is a link that goes into great detail about finding and solving DW. 

 http://www.kevinsoffroad.com/how-to-fix-your-own-death-wobble/

[marie]

@ ftpiercecracker, My gear box definitely only goes on one way. There are three long mounting bolts on the left side that fit onto a bracket that I believe is part of the frame. I don't recall there being a spacer, unless it is the bracket it fits onto. It was quite simple to put on. There were the two fittings for the fluid lines, the three bolts, the steering column gear and the pitman arm. Did I miss something? I will check it all out on Saturday when I revisit the problem with my little laundry list from the above suggestions and a few youtube videos. Great link you posted, I will scour that for info too. Many thanks!

[danbyrambler]

 

 http://www.kevinsoffroad.com/how-to-fix-your-own-death-wobble/

 

 

Good link - best IMO is:

• Wrangler Forum: Diagnosing Death Wobble 

 

Also:  Thrust angle is seldom discussed in DW threads - It is mentioned, a footnote somewhere & buried deep within Murphy's Law - - Anyway, A crash or PO's bungling can cause TA probs & make setting toe a real head scratcher - should be part of & near the top of every DW checklist imo

:thumbsup:

[marie]

Thanks danbyrambler, I will investigate that and gather info. What parts are involved in TA? You mention toe so I am assuming the tie rod and center link? I did all the work myself so I could very well be the PO! :laughin:

[GHayduke]

Did you ever resolve your wobble issue?  Who be interesting to know what it was.

[marie]

@GHayduke, sorry I should have posted a final note on this thread....

 

As it turns out the bracket that mounts to the motor mount for the track bar is actually L shaped, unbeknownst to me. I discovered there are two more bolts on the vertical portion of the bracket that are only visible through the wheel well (nut side), and the head of the bolts is in the engine compartment from the top. I only saw the two bolts that go to the under side of the motor mount and had only tightened those earlier. Once I tightened them, I chose to replace the track bar and the steering dampener once again as they showed some wear and tear. Once off I saw they were definitely needed to be replaced. They were the first two components I replace at the beginning of the ordeal 9 months ago (nightmare to be more exact).

 

With that done I still had a clunk when turning the wheel tightly, as in going in and out of a parking space. I discovered that three of my lugs on the passenger side were stripped in the hub hence the clunk, so I replaced the hub and steering knuckle. I also put almost new tires, a full set from the junk yard with 75% tread... no $$ left for new!! Now, with all the new parts, literally EVERY single steering and suspension component in the front except the upper control arms, I could finally take it in for a front end alignment. The toe was so far out it didn't even register on the computer/laser!!! They told me that my truck only has a toe adjustment, no camber or caster, is that correct???

 

I am happy to say it is quite sound now :cheers: , though my heart still races every time I see a hole in the road!  It's ingrained at this point, though I am getting better.

 

Now if I could only figure out how to install my new radio (that's been sitting in the box for the past year) there are at least 15 wires hanging out there with no connector, fix the emergency brake, fix the speedometer, fix the interior light, fix the........

Someday it will be worthy of a paint job!  :yes:

 

Many thanks to those who helped out here!

[Eagle]

They told me that my truck only has a toe adjustment, no camber or caster, is that correct???

 

Nope. Either they lied to you, or they don't have a clue how to work on a Jeep. Camber is basically not adjustable -- if it's out of spec, it has to be corrected by installed offset ball joints. Caster, however, IS adjustable. Caster is set by loosening the rear bolt on the lower control arms and sliding the control arms forward or back. There are special shims that fit into the frame pocket, between the rear wall of the pocket and the adjusting clevis. Then the two studs in the clevis are tightened to hold the shims in place (and maintain the caster setting).

 

Look under your vehicle from about the driver's door. Find the lower control arm frame pocket, and you should see two studs sticking out of it, pointing straight back.

[HOrnbrod]

Marie, here's a pic of the rear LCA and how the shims slide up into the pocket to effectively change the LCA length and correct caster. These shims are available from the dealer. Most alignment shops are clueless regarding caster adjustment on the XJs/MJs, or they don't want to bother.

 

[GHayduke]

Thanks guys!  I learned something about my MJ today!  Adjustable Caster....

 

If the two studs / nuts are rusted and don't move well... Is that what "Caster Oil" is for?  :doh:    

[marie]

@ GHayduke......caster oil....LMAO! :rotf:

 

@ Eagle & Hornbrod, sweet, thanks for the info! I will ask the shop that did the alignment and see if they will honor it and still do it. I have the computer print out of the test results and the caster was right on the edge of the acceptable range so I'm not hopeful. The shop was also not very apreciative of a girl knowing more than they did. When I had the clunk in the steering they insited my u-joints were bad and I agrued the fact becasue I had just replaced them a few months ago. When I showed them it was the loose lugs in the hub they were not happy. I sware I approached it nicely and just wanted them to have the info, but the guy was clearly ticked off. I'm guessing becasue I'm a 120 lb GIRL....... :wrench:  I may be small but over the years of doing auto work I have learned a lot about mechanical advantage!

 

Many thanks guys!