Hard To Get To

[jimoshel]

There is no way in Hades anyone is going to convince me that Jeep doesn't have a skilled technician sitting at the end of the assembly line and his sole function is to start at the front bumper and scan every inch of every new vehicle coming off the line looking for easy to reach, fix parts. When he finds something easy to get to, he figures out a way to make it difficult.either by moving it behind something or designing a part to be put in front of it. Frankly I hope he breaks down somewhere in outer Mongolia with nothing but a screwdriver and pair of pliers and he either fixes it or perishes. :fs1:

[Pete M]

which part are you struggling with?

[jimoshel]

Got it. It always helps when I take a break and vent. This morn swapped out a track bar on a '95 XJ. This afternoon was replacing a busted door stop on a '90MJ. Was doing it without removing the door panel. I'm running out of good window cranks and didn't want to ruin another one. Was working thru the hole below the the stop that the door wiring goes thru. Any way got it. And without removing the panel. The original rant was an accumulation building up over the last couple of days and I just let it out.

[Pete M]

been there, done that. :) 

 

 

ever changed the starter on a late 90s 4.6L?  :brows:

[jimoshel]

Got a steep hill in the back yard I can park it on.

[Pete M]

'tis a good plan. :D  the last nut holding it on is accessed by undoing the pass side engine mount and jacking up the block so you can try to finagle a 3 foot ratchet extension in there.  :doh: 

[ParadiseMJ]

  When he finds something easy to get to, he figures out a way to make it difficult.either by moving it behind something or designing a part to be put in front of it. :fs1:

 

...Amen.

 

...and never work around the catalytic converter after a couple cocktails...when it's hot...and you're in a hurry...

 

[HOrnbrod]

...Amen.

 

...and never work around the catalytic converter after a couple cocktails...when it's hot...and you're in a hurry...

 

...and never wear flip-flops while you work around the catalytic converter after a couple cocktails...when it's hot...and you're in a hurry...  :yes:

[Akula69]

 

There is no way in Hades anyone is going to convince me that Jeep doesn't have a skilled technician sitting at the end of the assembly line and his sole function is to start at the front bumper and scan every inch of every new vehicle coming off the line looking for easy to reach, fix parts. When he finds something easy to get to, he figures out a way to make it difficult.either by moving it behind something or designing a part to be put in front of it. Frankly I hope he breaks down somewhere in outer Mongolia with nothing but a screwdriver and pair of pliers and he either fixes it or perishes. :fs1:

 

I was just thinking this today while I changed the A/C compresser in the 04 WJ. I had to pull off the P/S unit, the air box and still had to wedge my arm in a space that must have been designed for a midget. I know it must be done by a guy with double joints in his elbow at the factory.

[64 Cheyenne]

When I opened the pub page and seen that Jim posted...first stop, and I agree.

 

What a celebrity....When Jim talks...people listen. lol

[Stacks]

Part of the curriculum for an automotive design engineer should be at least 2-5 years working as a mechanic fixing things on all the poorly designed vehicles BEFORE he/she is allowed to graduate!!!!!  ;0)

[dasbulliwagen]

Part of the curriculum for an automotive design engineer should be at least 2-5 years working as a mechanic fixing things on all the poorly designed vehicles BEFORE he/she is allowed to graduate!!!!!  ;0)

 

Ive been saying this for years. One of my biggest beefs being a Chrysler tech, is that on most PT Cruisers one of the AC port fittings is way down near the compressor. You have to take the grille out and the upper core support out to get to it.... freaking stupid!

[gogmorgo]

Part of the curriculum for an automotive design engineer should be at least 2-5 years working as a mechanic fixing things on all the poorly designed vehicles BEFORE he/she is allowed to graduate!!!!!  ;0)

No!

Education is not at issue here. Nor are the engineers. What is at issue is that engines are put into vehicles as whole units, complete with all accessories. This is because automobile manufacturers are businesses, and it's a pointless waste of resources to completely design every component of every car to be model-specific. You guys like it when you can find components on other vehicles that fit your MJ. Imagine if no cars had interchangeable parts. With lots of parts on an MJ, you get that. It's no fun trying to replace something that didn't get used on any other vehicle, is it? So you have an engineer who has to put this engine, the size, shape, and configuration of components of which he can't change, and he has to put it into an engine compartment he can't really change due to more important design priorities (like safety regulations, vehicle performance requirements, and exterior aesthetics, because you can't sell an ugly car), and he doesn't have much choice as to what goes where. Mostly his job is to make sure that the engine can do its job, doesn't interfere with other components' jobs, and especially doesn't fall out of the car, because that's really all he can do, since an artist drew the car, and the boss man says it has to look like that.

Have you ever designed a car? Do you know what all is involved, where you have to compromise? Cars don't break down very often, and repairs are rarely time-sensitive, so it's a pretty low priority. One of the highest priorities is unfortunately cost reduction. You want a car that's as easy to repair quickly as a Formula 1 car, you'll have to pay for an F1 car.

Seriously, don't knock someone's education unless you've been through it and actually know what you're talking about. I hear so many skilled mechanics and other skilled tradespeople saying things that are absolutely ridiculous and are completely against physics, like "engines need exhaust backpressure" or "if you get arc eye, mash up raw potato and put it on your eyes to suck the UV's back out of your them". What's missing from their education? Should they have spent a few years studying and working with fluid dynamics and light before becoming mechanics or welders?

[dasbulliwagen]

I don't think anyone here is bashing anyone elses education. I have seeen way too many time where something was engineered so wrong that there is absolutely no reason for it, other than the fact that the engineer doesnt have to work on anything he designs. There is some really stupid stuff out there! Stuff that doesnt have anything to do with the constraints of an engine bay, or parts availabilty. The only common sense answer for some of this stuff comes down to an engineer that doesnt have any hands on mechaincal experience. Ive had Chrysler tech trainers, guys who have an inside scoop to all means of the company, tell me the same thing. I know it takes a skilled person to design this stuff and that there is tons of comprimise to made in many facets of car building, but for some of these things there is no excuse.

[jimoshel]

^ :agree: To both of the above. It's not easy stuffing a 3'X4' engine in a 2'X3' hole. But some of the crap they come up with is just asinine. I personally believe a hands on experience would give them some idea of what a mechanic goes thru and help them design a better product. The whole point behind Detroit is to sell new cars. Not working on old ones. Part of their education should be one day a week in a repair facility getting their hands dirty and hopefully learning something. I, personally will not buy a new car or truck. Not because I can't afford it but because i can't work on it.

[gogmorgo]

I'll have to apologize for my late night ranting, as that did come off a little more harsh than it needed to. In a lot of ways, you guys are right. I don't see it so much here, possibly because there are more engineering students who grew up on farms, maintaining equipment, etc, than when I was at school in Ontario, where it seemed a lot of the engineering students were there simply because their parents wanted them to have a decent job and honestly couldn't design worth $#!&. And those are the people who rise through the ranks and end up making the $#!&ty decisions, believing they are better than everyone else, and everything that comes out of their mouth is gold, and they can never be wrong.

 

I've mentioned it a few times that I'm on my school's FSAE team. Every year we design a small racecar, we build it ourselves out of mostly custom built parts, and we maintain them ourselves. Every year, we start pretty much from scratch, although lots of parts get based pretty heavily off parts from the previous year's car, and we do all the assembly ourselves. Because this is a competition, we try to improve the car every year. The last few years, there was a really big push towards easier maintenance, which was mostly a success. One guy can pull the entire powertrain out of last year's car, all the way from the engine to the wheel hubs, in under a half hour. But the car is so long and wide that it has trouble making it around the tighter corners in the autocross course at competition. So this year, we pulled six inches out of the wheelbase. Can of worms doesn't even begin to describe what that involves. As one example, the diff's gear ratio is much taller than we'd like, but was chosen because "that's the biggest we can fit into that spot and it can't go anywhere else". And if that spot in the chassis gets bigger, we'd lose any semblance of chassis rigidity, or the suspension geometry would go to $#!&.  50% of design is unfortunately compromising.

 

I really do think that all engineering students should have to participate in something like this. And that's why the people who do are more likely to get hired, because they actually have experience doing the things the got hired for. Sadly, out of the 2000 students in the college of engineering here, likely only about 50 of them feel they have enough time to dedicate to this kind of extra-curricular project.

[HOrnbrod]

One of my biggest beefs being a Chrysler tech, is that on most PT Cruisers one of the AC port fittings is way down near the compressor. You have to take the grille out and the upper core support out to get to it.... freaking stupid!

The entire PT Cruiser was freaking stupid.

[JeepcoMJ]

Agreed, PT cruisers are fugly, pointless, dumb.

 

 

And I don't care how smart you think an engineer is gogmorgo, intelligence has nothing to do with common sense. Your first ranting post here....just made me cringe. Of course an engineer should make a car easier to work on! It can be done, and has been done!! The problem with engineers is that they don't have to work on a vehicle, and they haven't seen failures because everything they work on is brand new. If there was some common sense, engineers would go above and beyond to make things easy to work on, even if they had to design specialty tools to make it "harder" for the common mechanic, just so that warranty work and recalls could be done faster, cheaper, and easier. Less cost to the company would mean more profit.

[gogmorgo]

All I'm saying is don't blame the engineer. What you're failing to see is that the engineers have other priorities than making sure things are easy to work on, most of which are thrust upon them by people who aren't engineers, and typically have never turned a wrench in their lives.

That rant that made you cringe? Maybe it should have. It was mostly provoked by the statement that an engineering education is inadequate. Which it most definitely is not. That statement made me angry. And it was late at night, So you got a rant.

Are there engineers out there with no common sense? I don't doubt it. There is a not insignificant number of people out there pretty much forcing their children to become engineers because they want them to have a high-paying, secure job. My experience with students from that sort of background either do really well academically and don't ever get much hands-on experience, since their parents wouldn't let them do that sort of thing since they should be studying, or else they don't really give a crap about anything because daddy's paying for it and will get you a decent job anyway. The former isn't so bad, provided the person actually wants to become an engineer, but the latter is. It's part of the reason I switched universities. I was just sick of dealing with people like that. There's really no way to filter these people out of the loop if they can still pull average marks. All I can say about that is that the manufacturers should be more careful as to who they hire. But you can't exactly call out an entire profession base on a few lousy practitioners. They make up a very slim minority of the population. Most of the engineering students here come from agricultural or other blue-collar families, and are people who've grown up maintaining equipment or building stuff. Those who make it all the way to convocation will be good engineers. Those who come from white-collar families will typically end up in management. You guys complain about engineers, engineers complain about management. 

So again, what I'm saying is that the engineers aren't the problem. I'm not denying that there is a problem, by any means, but complaining about engineers is not going to solve it, even if they are part of the problem. If it's that big a deal for you, maybe you should organize some like-minded people and go to the manufacturer(s) to complain instead of just sitting behind your computer and abasing my chosen profession.

Unless something obscene gets said, I promise you this will be my last post on the subject. Exam stress seems to be getting to me, but it's no excuse. I'll also apologize to Jim for what I realize pretty well ruined his thread.

 

I'll also leave with this thought:  It used to be that when your TV broke, you took it down to the repairman. Now you just throw it away and get a new one. That's the society we're living in.

[JeepcoMJ]

I can agree with most of what you said, save for one thing. Engineers, while they may have to deal with higher-ups dictating what something should look like aesthetically, should have one priority. To make the company money. That goes hand in hand with making things easier to work on for a dealer even if it requires specialty tools to keep the general public from working on it, as saving the company money is the same as making them money.

I'm sure there are idiots telling them to do the impossible. But they have to be able to have the creative genious to innovate and counteract the impossible and make it possible. That is after all the gist of their job.

An engineer is a draftsman; a designer. a person who is supposed to come up with a concept, make it an actuality, then streamline the details.

[armyofchuckness]

Reminds me of when I agreed to help my brother change out the fluid in his Jeep Patriot. All you have to do is find the drain plug, right? WRONG! The entire front facia has to come off, because it forms an inaccesible box around the drain release screw. I know they did that on purpose.