Lift problems

[JACKED88]

WTF??? I finally got a chance to install my 6.5" front lift parts. Though everything would go together as it should but ...... no frickin way. This is what I'm installing. Rough Country's 6.5" springs, adj upper and lower control arms, adj trac bar and a drop pitman arm.

 

Problem ..... According to R/C I was supposed to set the upper arms at 15 1/2" and the lowers at 16 1/2". Well, that just doesnt work. Looks to me like the axle needs to move forward at least a couple of more inches to be centered in the fender well much less have tha correct caster.

As it is, I can't git both the upper and lower to bolt up. If I bolt up the lowers, I can't rotate the axle enough to bolt the uppers. Same problem if I bolt up the uppers, I can't git the lowers to bolt up.

I've been fighting this thing all day. Tried numerous ways to get everything to line/bolt up but each time I tried to do it a different way something else would be way out of line and unable to be bolted up.

 

I'm pretty sure I've narrowed my problem down to not having the arms adjusted long enough. I need to know what the upper and lower arms should be set at for a 6.5" lift???

 

Thanks in advance.

Robert

[comanche09]

Hey Robert,

 

Wrestling with controls arms is a PITA. Not sure about your length issue.

 

Here is a Control arm length chart I found on the forums:

 

LIFT LCAs UCAs Lengths

Stock 15.75" 15.00"

2" 15.92" 14.88"

3" 16.09" 14.92"

4" 16.33" 15.03"

4.5" 16.47" 15.11"

5" 16.62" 15.21"

6" 16.97" 15.44"

7" 17.36" 15.74"

8" 17.81" 16.09"

9" 18.30" 16.50"

10" 18.82" 16.96"

 

 

Try disconnecting everything else first (if you have done so already) and attack the controls arms first.

 

I have found that using a big pipe wrench on the axle tube, then lifting on the end of the handle with a floor jack worked for me. Good luck :cheers:

[mnkyboy]

I installed the same arms a couple weeks ago with no issues.

 

my measurements won't help you though as i also installed drop brackets,it would be good to keep in mind that everything might look a little off at full droop but its gonna swing forward some when you set it back on the ground

[89eliminator]

those measurements are just a ballpark to get you close to what they should be. you will have to fine tune the lengths to get everything correct.

[Backroads]

Reason #12123453 why I hate control arms and 'links' setup.....I always just bolt up the control arms first, then wrastle with the springs Its damn near impossible to fight the down force of the springs to get your axle or pinion point up enough to get the uppers in, or vise versa for the lowers. After renting a compressor who knows how many times I finally kept one, and just disconnect all the steering components if needed to get massive droop from the axle to pop longer springs in. Keep at it, it is possible, once its all said and done get under there with an angle finder and figure out your driveline angles and caster. Then start all over again :mad:

[Pete M]

Yup, that's how I've done it. arms first, coils second. still hard, but not as hard.

[Hubbell]

I didn't have the issue with the long arms but on my Cherokee I had to put ratchet straps around the axle and connect the other end to the front bumper and start cranking. This will pull the axle up and forward. Worked like a champ. This is what my local 4x4 shop does when installing this kind of setup. :cheers:

[CWLONGSHOT]

As pointed out the length's are a guide, your numbers will likely vary.

For aligning the bolts you need a tapered tool like the seal remover available from Sears Craftsman. then a Stillson wrench. Also called a Monkey wrench. Grab the axle tube and stick a bottle jack under the handle and lift. It will rotate the axle and allow for easy insertion of the bolts..

 

DO NOT SCREW THEM IN OR OUT!!!!! You will ruin them!!

 

CW

[LEAD_NOT_FOLLOW]

Why are you using a drop pitman arm? It's not needed...

[JACKED88]

Why are you using a drop pitman arm? It's not needed...

:???: Because R/C SOLD me on the idea it was required when using their lift components. And that it would take some of the angle out if the center link.

Is it true that a dropped arm creates excessive stress on the gear box? (keeping in mind this truck is mostly street driven) I could understand the stress if I were rock crawling or going extreme off roading but I don't do either. With that said, is using it gonna hurt me or is it just something I spent money on thats not needed?

 

Called R/C today. I didnt mention it before but one of the lower arms thay sent me has galled threads in/on it. We had to put one end of it in a vise and use a 3 foot cheater bar just to screw it out to 16.5" Their sending me a replacement over night so it should be here tomorrow. Needless to say my sons boss isnt real happy about one of his lifts being tied up with my truck on it so we're gonna have to go ahead and install that bad arm for now. I'll replace it this weekend.

 

My son worked on it a little today and claims he has 3 out of tha 4 arms bolted up. Says he needs to rotate the axle about 1/4" more to git tha lower bolt in.

Gonna git a spring compressor and do like yall suggested. Arms first, springs last. One way on another we gotta git it off that lift tonight. (even if we have to move it on floor jax)

 

Thanks for yalls suggestions and help. I'll let ya know how it turns out. (and if my son still has a job) :fs1:

[LEAD_NOT_FOLLOW]

Because R/C SOLD me on the idea it was required when using their lift components. And that it would take some of the angle out if the center link.

Is it true that a dropped arm creates excessive stress on the gear box? (keeping in mind this truck is mostly street driven) I could understand the stress if I were rock crawling or going extreme off roading but I don't do either. With that said, is using it gonna hurt me or is it just something I spent money on thats not needed?

 

You should never have to use a drop pitman arm. DPAs should ONLY be used if you're lowering the trackbar mount on the frame, or raising it on the axle, otherwise it will CAUSE bumpsteer. The whole belief that you need a drop pitman arm with a lift has been perpetuated from the days of leaf sprung vehicles without trackbars. On these vehicles you wanted to keep the angle of the draglink as flat as possible to minimize bumpsteer. On vehicles with a trackbar (like your MJ), you want to keep the draglink as parallel to the trackbar as possible to minimize bumpsteer. With a DPA, your making it worse. A dropped pitman arm will also increase the amount of torque/axial loading on the shaft your steering box experiences. If you've ever talked to anyone who's running larger tires and had a frame failure to the steering box mounting area, they'll be the first to tell you that you don't want to do anything to put more stress on the steering box...

[JACKED88]

Because R/C SOLD me on the idea it was required when using their lift components. And that it would take some of the angle out if the center link.

Is it true that a dropped arm creates excessive stress on the gear box? (keeping in mind this truck is mostly street driven) I could understand the stress if I were rock crawling or going extreme off roading but I don't do either. With that said, is using it gonna hurt me or is it just something I spent money on thats not needed?

 

You should never have to use a drop pitman arm. DPAs should ONLY be used if you're lowering the trackbar mount on the frame, or raising it on the axle, otherwise it will CAUSE bumpsteer. The whole belief that you need a drop pitman arm with a lift has been perpetuated from the days of leaf sprung vehicles without trackbars. On these vehicles you wanted to keep the angle of the draglink as flat as possible to minimize bumpsteer. On vehicles with a trackbar (like your MJ), you want to keep the draglink as parallel to the trackbar as possible to minimize bumpsteer. With a DPA, your making it worse. A dropped pitman arm will also increase the amount of torque/axial loading on the shaft your steering box experiences. If you've ever talked to anyone who's running larger tires and had a frame failure to the steering box mounting area, they'll be the first to tell you that you don't want to do anything to put more stress on the steering box...

Oops, my bad. Forgot to tell you tha R/C trac bar I got comes with a lowering bracket and that was why they said a DPA was required.

We've already removed tha stock bracket and installed tha new drop bracket. We've also installed tha DPA.

I'll be heading up to tha shop in a couple of hours (after its closed for tha day) to finish the install. Hopefully we'll git everything bolted up and my truck off tha lift. Its pretty much do or die tonight because my sons boss is gonna be pissed if its still there tomorrow. (wonder what he's gonna say when we bring it back in to do tha 2x4 to 4x4 trans swap? :rant: LOL!!!

[dakal]

I have found that using a big pipe wrench on the axle tube, then lifting on the end of the handle with a floor jack worked for me.

 

x2

[JeepcoMJ]

first hand experience...the new RC arms are just not right.

 

 

what is happening is the lower shock mounts are CONTACTING the LCA's, preventing any further twist.

 

 

in the end, with mine, I plasma cut some of the lower shock mounts out, and made the uppers longer than they were "supposed" to be.

[JACKED88]

first hand experience...the new RC arms are just not right.

 

 

what is happening is the lower shock mounts are CONTACTING the LCA's, preventing any further twist.

 

 

in the end, with mine, I plasma cut some of the lower shock mounts out, and made the uppers longer than they were "supposed" to be.

Exactly!!! Thats what I was telling my son tha whole time we were fighting to install tha damn things. (this sh-t aint right) I even called R/C, told um my problem and ask if they sent me tha wrong arms. They said I have tha correct arms.

I almost decided to take a grinder to tha shock mount and grind out a notch for added rotation clearance. The only reason I didnt was because I wanted to call R/C and make sure I had the right arms first. Now that I know they're tha right arms, I'm grinding tha notches.

 

Note tha bend in the end of these; http://www.ironman4x4fab.com/Jeep_XJ_Co ... J_LCA.html

That little bend would make all tha difference in tha world upon installation compared to these straight R/C's. Thats how R/C aughta be making theirs too. Instead all they do is weld on the bushing at the axle end offset to the arm. Problem is its not enough. Hence the needed addition of the bend shown above.

[JACKED88]

OK, we got everything installed and off tha lift. :clapping: I've got the lower control arms set at 17 1/8" and the uppers at 15 5/8. According to tha chart that should be to pretty close to being set in between a 6 & 7 inch lift. (I have 6.5" coils) .

 

(from chart)

6" 16.97" 15.44"

7" 17.36" 15.74"

 

Problem is I have a camber issue. As it is my dif is sitting almost level and my upper ball joints are leaning towards the rear. Looks like the upper arms either need to go out at least another inch or the lowers need to come in the same. The tires in relation to being centered in the fender well is pretty close but could use going forward a little more.

Arent the ball joints supposed to be vertically in line with "O" degrees of angle? If so, the axle needs to rotate at least an inch. By doing so that would also increase my dif angle closer to being right.

I don't have a problem adjusting the upper arms out that far but thats gonna put the uppers and lowers set at almost the same length. Somehow that just doesnt seem right but if thats what its gonna take to correct the camber issue then thats what I'll have to do.

 

I'd appreciate yalls input on weather this sounds right to yall or if I have something wrong creating this much of a camber issue.

No, we havent done an alignment yet because we can obviously see there's a camber problem. We felt we needed to get most of that adjusted out before we even try to do an alignment on it.

 

In a nut shell .... does it sound right that my upper and lower control arms are likely gonna end up being set at nearly the same length?

 

Oh and as for articulation, forget about it. Even though I ground off some of the shock mount to help make the axle drop lower for spring installation, the lower control arm still hits tha mount and stops any further flexing of the axle.

I'm pretty disappointed with these lower arms. R/C needs to go back to tha drawing board and correct this problem. We shouldnt have to cut or grind off parts of our trucks to make their sh-t fit half @$$ right.

In time the top side of the lower arm and the bottom side of the shock mount are gonna beat tha crap out of each other. Eventually something is gonna give. When it does you can bet your @$$ R/C is gonna hear about it. In fact, I'm gonna call um tomorrow and let um know there's a problem with their lower arms and what I think about their product.

BTW, don't you jeepcoMJ and mnkyboy have the same problem with the lower arm contacting the shock mount and therefore restricting articulation?

[mnkyboy]

with the truck level on stands i can jack up one brake rotor into the wheel well and almost lay the other brake rotor on the ground,my springs will almost fall out they are sloppy enough i put them in by hand without a spring compressor.

 

so basically my flex is great :banana:

 

 

i think the difference is i built control arm drop brackets so at 6.5" of lift my control arms are still pretty level where yours are almost maxed out from the start.

[Pete M]

what is your caster? measure that before making any adjustments.

[JACKED88]

what is your caster? measure that before making any adjustments.

I was very particular about my control arm measurements prior to installing so even without addition measurements we're fairly certain my caster is pretty close. We'll make whatever fine adjustments are needed when we do the alignment. Right now its the camber I have an obvious problem with.

 

So is that a yes or a no that the ball joints should be vertically in line with each other ("0" degrees) for correct camber? (or at least within a degree or so +/- either way.

 

Just for reference I'm gonna use a clock with 12:00 and 6:00 being "O" degrees. Right now looking at tha passenger side and saying the lower ball joint is in a fixed 6:00 position, the upper ball joint is closer to being at about 11:00 . It definitely needs to be rotated if their supposed to be vertically in line with each other.

I would prefer to rotate the top of the axle forward to put the upper joint in the 12:00 position rather than rotate the bottom towards the rear. Reason being by rotating the bottom towards tha rear would pull my wheel further back and off center in relation to the fender well. Its actually pretty close to center now but if anything it could use going forward a little more.

If done as described above leaving the lower ball joints where they are and again saying their in a fixed 6:00 position, the upper ball joint would need to rotate from an 11:00 position to the 12:00 position. That would require adjusting the upper control arms outward at least an inch or more therefore making the upper and lower arms very close to being the same length.

 

 

Two questions ..... are the upper and lower ball joints supposed to be vertically perpendicular with each other for correct camber?

Does it sound right that I should have to adjust my upper and lower control arms to near the same length to achieve the correct camber?

[Pete M]

gotta fix your caster first. camber is not adjustable (except with special offset ball joints).

 

 

[JACKED88]

gotta fix your caster first. camber is not adjustable (except with special offset ball joints).

 

 

Ok, so whats right? Am i correct in thinking the ball joints are supposed to be vertically perpendicular or not? Like that straight vertical line in the "caster" pic.

 

I though caster was the position of your axle in relation the the frame. In other words if the two are square with each other. Hence the adjustments made by adding or subtracting shims from the factory lower control arm adjusters. If thats not right, what does those adjusters adjust?

[Pete M]

they should lean back slightly. Unless the particular car asks for 0* like some of the old Scouts. I don't remember for sure, but I wanna say that MJs got 5* from the factory. any less as the truck will wander on the road. (the right amount of caster gives the truck it's return-to-center for the steering)

[JACKED88]

they should lean back slightly. Unless the particular car asks for 0* like some of the old Scouts. I don't remember for sure, but I wanna say that MJs got 5* from the factory. any less as the truck will wander on the road. (the right amount of caster gives the truck it's return-to-center for the steering)

Wow! That much angle huh. I've got an angle finder sittin in front of me and 5* is actually quite a bit of angle. (I still think I have more than 5*) But if thats correct, I'm not as far off as I thought. I'll pull tha wheels with the axle on stands and take a closer look using the angle finder.

How much angle should my dif be set at? Considering my 6.5" lift, setting the dif angle is gonna change tha ball joint angle.

 

 

EDIT ....... Yeah, from what I can tell by just taking a quick angle reading, my dif is at a negative 3* and my ball joints are pushin 15*. I don't think I have a choice but to extend the upper arms till I get some positive dif angle and closer to a 5* ball joint angle. I may even have to shorten my lower arms as well. I'm thinkin maybe an inch out on the uppers and a half in with tha lowers. At that setting both the upper and lower arms will be the exact same length. Their at 15 5/8 and 17 1/8 now. (1 1/2" difference) Plus 1" = 16 5/8 and minus 1/2 = 16 5/8. I still don't see how that could be right. :???:

[CWLONGSHOT]

I like 7-8 degrees caster on a lifted Jeep! Measure it at the ball joints...

 

 

Then watch your DS angle and the position of the bumpstop in the spring and the swaw bar at the front of the spring.

 

CW

[JACKED88]

I like 7-8 degrees caster on a lifted Jeep! Measure it at the ball joints...

 

 

Then watch your DS angle and the position of the bumpstop in the spring and the swaw bar at the front of the spring.

 

CW

See edit in my last post.

 

Where does that put you dif angle? Lets say I'm at 15* at tha ball joints and negative 3 at tha dif, going to 7 on the ball joints will give me positive 5* at tha dif. Does that sound about right for tha dif angle?