Regger

Well after all this great discussion, the pros and cons, and everyones thoughts and opinions on the subject.. I almost feel embarssed to say that my thoughts have changed yet again.. A buddy just phoned up and said he has all the materials to make an RE or Clayton Off-Road style radius arm setup.. Which means I might abandon my tie-rod idea for now, and go with this setup only because its there, and quicker and easier than my initial plan... But I don't want to let this idea/thread die... I'm still on the hunt for some actual numbers for comparison for Eagle. Cause I have another MJ project down the road that this might work on.. unless I find that the actual numbers really suck.. I guess this is why my friends say "You Think Too Much!".. which I probably do.. I think of all these different designs and ways, and it takes up more time than the actual build of my project... I guess thats the procrastinator in me... Thanks Ryan

Okay.. Multiple response post... DirtyComanche - Why is it Hack.. please explain... Eagle - I had my MJ at 6" lift, I wouldn't say that it ate Tie-rods at all.. but we are trying to compare our small scale tie-rods to this very large scale.. Now I just wish I had numbers for comparison, cause right now we are only guessing... The angle could be worse, or it could be better... And as M357.5 has mentioned, the stock track bar is at a pretty good angle already for its design... M357.5 - Could you post a direct link to that setup or at least a little better idea where it is.. there are just way to many pics on that site to try ang go through... Now owning a Dodge Diesel myself.. I must admit that the Tie-rod end on the track-bar is a piece of poo... and the cause of my steering troubles. I have upgraded it now to the newer style trackbar which has bushings at both ends.. But in defence of that tie-rod.. the size of it was no bigger than my steering arm tie-rods... so I don't think it was of substantial size to do the job to begin with 89MJay - I feel there is lots of weld area on a 1.5" plate steel.. Cause think about it.. its 1.5" wide, by about 3" long.. that's over 9" of total weld. It will of course be properly chamfered, and I bet I'll get over 3/8" penetration on that... And when we're talking about welds that can handle 70,000PSI of Tensile.. Thats a lot , and I mean a lot of force to rip a weld. And if a weld is good, you should never rip a weld, but the material surrounding it. So if you think you can bend or rip 1.5" thick steel, or even the axle tube, at what.. 1/2"+ thick.. then I have a lot more to worry about.. Look at a stock axle bracket.. at what, 1/8" thick, and welded on 3 sides.. it does pretty good for itself... I'm not saying its the best.. but it held up pretty good for the most part on my rig.. Now you mention single shear.. yes, I can't get away from that.. but if I have to worry about shearing a 1"+ bolt.. jeez.. the rest of you guys must really be scared of driving your rigs with what, 1/2", 9/16", or at worst 3/4" bolts holding your links on.. yeah double shear.. but still, the single shear bolt is over twice the size of your double shear.. for example.. a 5/8" Grade 8 bolt will handle 22,610lb shear, while a 1" grade 8 bolt will handle 71,500lb shear.. even with a 5/8" in double shear.. we're still talking 40% single shear more for the 1" There is no way our rigs will ever shear a 1" bolt As for positives.. I was going more on the notion that these are relatively cheap, fairly common to get (as if you in the middle of some hick town.. it would be easy to aquire one of these then say a johhny or heim), and it allows my axle mounting positions to have greater range than the sqaure tubing... AS for your second post.. don't really follow... but you mention about be mounted on the side witha lever.. well, the point will place along the same centerline at rest as the control arm.. so that force would be direct.. and when flexing the forces will be applied at an angle, but so will box tubing... cause the control arm wil not always be in line with the center of the tubing when flexed.. is that what you mean? Pingpong - The questions you ask, I can't answer because at this point I don't have comparison number in front of me of how much of an angle these tie-rods will allow.. once I know that.. then I can answer this... As well.. that is really the make it or break if of this idea.. if the angle is less than half of a JJ or heim, then its an idea down the tubes... but I'm still optimistic... Ryan

Actually, what you can do, is use a stock axle, say D44 & D60, and adapt just the portal hubs to the axle... Rob Bryce (Exact Engineering) did that for one of his customers.. He did it on a D30 front end with 3.08 gears in the diff. It was for a rock buggy. No need to go any bigger as all the gear reduction is in the portal. Of course the housing was heavily trussed.... Its an idea... Ryan

89MJay... Every thing that has been proven and common, had to start somewhere, and that was an idea in someones head.. Do I really need to re-invent the wheel, no... But I want to give it a try... One reason that I'm going to try and give this a whirl, is that the mounts are only 1.5" wide.. Instead of about 3" wide for sqaure tubing to hold bushings. And with the Waggy D44 front that I have, the housing is bigger because it also incorporated the spring mounts. So this pushes my bracket over about 1" from where it was designed to go. So by having a mount only 1.5" wide, I'm able to move my mount back to where it was designed. Will this make a huge difference in the end, probably not, but will it help the geometry.. probably yes. As for added costs you mentioned... I work at a machine shop so most all tools needed, are available for free. And I don't need to purchase a reamer, as I can just interpolate the taper with a ball nose cutter on a CNC Mill. So I have that part covered for cheap. As for the bar stock cost, working in a machine shop helps as I'm sure we have something kicking around.. And I really don't need that much. The mounts only need to be about 3" long on the lowers, and upper of the housing, and maybe 6" long on the upper pass. side tube. So we're talking just over a foot, say 1.5'. At 15lbs per foot, equals about 22lbs total, times about $2 per lb, I'm only at about $45 in steel. Which is pretty darn close to what I would have paid for 1/4"wall, 3" square box tubing.. So the added costs are negligble.. AS Sitll havent made up my mind yet if I will do this or not... I still need to find out some numbers of the tie-rods to compare to the other links. So far the two concerns are strength and flexability. Thanks, Ryan

Sweet.. some awesome discussion.. thats what I like... Okay.. let me try and breakdown the posts and responses.... Eagle.. You mention angularity and that tie-rods are only meant to used used on the one basic plane.. But then how to you explain the draglink?.. In stock form they are not truely horizontal.. but at an angle from the pitman arm down to the tie-rod end.. Even look at the stock MJ setup.. its at a pretty good angle already and seems to do fine.. Cause remember, that draglink is constantly changing angles throughout the suspension cycle.. and even worse when we add a lift.. They seem to hold up pretty well in my opinion.. Now the other thing.. look at the way I will be mounting this... the bolt will be horizontal.. so the tie-rod will be pivoting about the ball centerline during normal suspension and compression cycles up and down, but really, how much angularity am I going to need on a joint when the axle starts flexing?.. Now I don't know the total angle of motion between all of these joints... so I can't comment on that specific part... Now I also just thought of this... normal rubber and poly bushings, flex pretty darn good... for their design.. and commonly used.. but I would guess that this tie-rod won't be any worse of angular movement than what a bushing can give... Pingpong... You may not have thought of using steering for suspension, but have thought of suspension for steering.... Heim joints were designed for suspension links first and then have slowly made their way for use on steering arms now... Its just about giong against the flow of thought and see if that will work as well.. Now, If you look at the very nice CAD drawings... I will be mounting the tie-rod to the axle horizontally... That is the stud will be in line with the axle tube. The thickness of the material will depend on the length of the taper. For the one that I mentioned, it goes from a small taper diameter of 1.08" to a large dia. of 1.25" over 1.5" in length.. So I would be using a 1.5" thick piece of flat bar. Now you mention flexing in different planes at one time... very true, but how is that different from a ball socket/heim joint that does the same thing??? And there won't be any changing of castor and pinion angle because of the tie-rod.. only because of the control arm geometry.. For the tie-rod to cause any pinion or castor changing, would mean that its loose and floppy back and forth on the mount.. This would happen for any worn out joint no matter what.. And as for keeping it tight.. same idea as your tie-rods.. they are tight arent they???... They require the use of a pickle fork and a BFH to remove from the taper once the nut is removed.. right?.. Basically the mount will have a tapered hole in them.. So it wil be mounted in the exact same way as you would a normal tie-rod end on your steering.. My design would have to make sure I have room to be able to get a pickle fork, or hammer or tie-rod press to get it out when I need to make adjustments.. Now I guess I need to find out some hard and true facts about stresses/forces and angularity difference between all these joints.... Cause I think we've drawn out everyones personal opinion.. but now need to base opions on numbers now... The problem is trying to find those numbers... Thanks, Ryan

Ahh Yes.. Those joints... Yeah those have come to mind as well... The one common bad thing that I've heard about those from a few members in my club... is that as soon as you drop one of those onto a rock on the edge.. you bend the lip and can no longer get the end cap out, or if you do get it out, the lip is so out of round, you can't get it back in... now the joint is no good... A friends are so badly beaten up and worn out that they need replacing, but can't get the ring off to rebuild them.. he now has to cut his arms off the joint and re-weld new ones on, hopefully keeping the same geometry as before... I also have a friend that makes a similiar version up here for about the same price... But the other thing about those.. is I have to weld either some threaded tubing, or some threaded rod onto them in order to make my links adjustable.. (Cause I don't think I'm good enough to create geometry that is completly bind free at rest, or the correct length for alignment...) And the welding can distort or cause a weakened heat affected zone... and .188" wall is really not that thick... Now you talk about stresses.. how do you think this joint compares in strength to the tie-rods? But yes, all these different types of common joints have come to mind.. but the thing is.. they're common... I'd like to try something a little different that could result in something common down the road... but I want to make sure that I'm not off my rocker.. and so far.. I'm not.. I'm just pushing people a little beyond their comfort zone.. which is good.. because it brings out the good discussions that way.. Thanks, Ryan

Okay, Feerocknok, its axle mounting would be like your second drawing.. Eagle, Why do you say Johhny Joints???... Need explaination... 89MJay, I understand the single shear comment, but of course with tie-rods you can't do that.. Now for a heim joint... yes I say its a must to have the joint itself boxed in tubing, double shear... Now the only thing I can think of not in double shear, would be the frame mounting of a radius arm setup... Such as Pete's Rig.. I think this setup is similiar to a radius arm setup.. but no one complains of that....Hmmmm... or maybe some do, but its still being used... Now, are all your steering rod ends in double shear... probably not because they are tie-rods... now think of the force you can put on that rod end if you were climbing a rock, slipped to the side, and smashed the side of your wheel into a rock... theres still a lot of force pushing that rod end on your steering arms.. But we have to put this tie-rod into perspective... this thing is big.. just the ball socket joint is the size of the palm of my hand... Its meant for steering on 20,000lb front axles... now I'm using it on a truck that weighs total of 4,000lbs... although not in steering, but thats where I'm hoping the size will come into play. so I'm hoping my abuse and force applied won't come anywhere near what it was intended for.. Now as well, when was the last time you've broken a tie-rod end?? (that was not completely worn out by lack of maintanence/inspection),, Personally I can't think of one instance for me, or for anyone in my club. I've busted the arm off my knuckle when I hit a log, and the tie-rod was just fine http://gallery.hot4x4.ca/album04 but thats as close as I can get... Now if you do know someone that has, think of how it happened and the force that was applied to that tie-rod to make it break... Now think of how it would have happened if the tie-rod that broke was actually about 5 times bigger/heavier/stronger... Do you think it would have broke then??,.. Now I've just recently found out that Ben, from OTT Industries up here, runs a Semi Tie-Rod end on his radius arm links for the frame mounting.. I'm trying to get a hold of him at the moment and ask some questions.. AS for price... I don't feel the dollar value is a fair comparison between the strenghts and weaknesses of a joint... if thats the case.. then all the chevy trucks from the 80's whose brake calipers are only $15 after core... are crazy for running something so cheap for a task so crucial to safety inthe truck... Its all about supply and demand... So what would you think of that joint if I said it was $150 ea... hopefully no different... THats why Chevy stuff is so cheap.. theres as many of those trucks on the road as there is people in the world!! I'm going to look into this a lot further and see where it takes me... Whos knows if I'll run them or not.. But I will let you know why I choose what I did... Thanks, Ryan

Hey Folks... I have an idea thats popped into my head as of lately.. I'm trying to figure out what link ends I want to use for my front control arms... Rubber/Poly Bushings, Heim Joint, RE Joint, or my latest idea... A Semi Tie-Rod end..... We're talking a big tie-rod.. Something with a 1-1/4" thread, and a taper that goes from 1.08" to 1.25" over 1.5" with a 7/8 nut... Basically similiar to this: http://tinyurl.com/yk3lpe I was looking for something common, readily available, relatively cheap, durable, but with good flex/articulation abilities. This seems to fit the bill... The plan so far, is to use rubber or poly bushing up on the frame brackets, and then this tie-rod down on the axle brackets... The pro side of this idea, is these things are damn strong... I doubt I will break them.. And having a bracket that is only 1.5"wide, leaves me with a few more inches of side to side placement on the axle for better geometry. They are a good amount of angular movement for good articulation, oh and are cheap!!! The Con side is that I have to make sure I have room to be able to press/bang/pop the taper out for control arm length adjustment. And I guess, if I manage to break the ball socket, because this is not enclosed like a poly bushing between a square bracket, my control are will pop off. The bad thing about a bracket thats 1.5" wide, is the amount of welding area is reduced compared to a 3" square tubing bracket. Also, I have not heard of anyone running something like this so I don't know what the failure/wear rate would be... So lay it on me.. What do you think??? Thanks, Ryan

Thanks, The sounds comes from a Header, with a glass pack and straight pipe... Glass pack was only to get it through inspection... The cat is also hollowed out for inspection... It dumps out just in front of the rear wheel. At that time I had a mix and match to get me 6" of lift, running 33x12.5's.. It was a great combination, and I probably would still be runnning it that way if I didnt get a DD, and decided to upgrade the axles... 4 years later, and I'm still "upgrading" the MJ... Thanks, Ryan

It does have a Twin Sticked 205 in it... Says right in the description.... Man o man.. what can I say... these are the same type of guys that ask why my project has taken years, where they did there custom axle and lift in a weekend... It make a great show to be one on the side of a trail to watch this thing go BOOM :popcorn: Ryan

Well Back in the Day when the MJ was running.... http://videoserver.hot4x4.ca/Sunrise-La ... anSRCD.mpg Man I miss those days... :cry: :cry: This having to pay for a roof over my head sure cut into the MJ fund Big time... OH.. and here's a huge video of me playing in some mud!!.. I really hate mud, but because this was the only way to get through the trail, I entertained myself for a while!!!!... Man was that a mess!!! http://videoserver.hot4x4.ca/Ruby-Creek ... stepCD.mpg Ryan

I've run used gears on both axles and have never had a problem with them. The only real difference in the setup, is you worry more about the coast side pattern rather than the drive side... As you said, the used set will have a pattern already, which by using the shims that came with the diff will get it close, you will never get a good pattern on the drive side due to normal wear. So get everything close and use the coast pattern as you indicator. Theen you good to go. I'm going on almost 6 years on the used 4.10 gears in my(now the girlfriends) front D30. and over 4 years on the rear D35, 4.10's (the reason for the 4 years, was the cross shaft broke and busted up the pinion, otherwise I would bet it would still be going to day) HTH Ryan

Technically speaking... A track bar does move up and down, if your looking at it in a 2D view from the front... As the suspension cycles, the axle pivot point will move up and down... ( and slightly left to right) BUT... If you look from the side of the truck, that same axle pivot point, not only moves up and down, but from front to back in an arc... The arc which is created by your control arms... So, in my mind, a perfect frame bracket, will not be perfectly vertical, (or having the trac-bar bolt perfectly horizontal)... It will be angled just enough so that its tangential to that arc created by the control arms... This way would give you the most amount of flex/movement from the track bar, which the least amount of bushing deflection, which in theory, should make your bushings last longer by having a minimal amount of stress on them... Just my thoughts to this discussion... Ryan

Yeah there has been a few of those pop up over the years... I think it was a dealer promotion or something like that... WOuld be a cool keep sake.. even though it is a little onthe small side Ryan

I am not sure this was the same one, but here is the link from last March, it went for about 2K. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Com ... 1020QQrdZ1 same vin between the both... Funny.. How the miles went from 155K i march down to 112K in 9 months???? Looks like hes using the Miles from the donor XJ he used.... Also, if you look, they aren't 5 on 4.5 dually rims.. the adaptors are 5 on 4.5, but the actual wheels look about 5 on 7 or so.... Still a real pretty truck that I wish I could add to me collection!!!! I would prefer an Std, rather than auto .... Ryan

Thats because the Frame end is designed wrong... Which way does your suspension travel??..... Up and Down..... Where to get the most movement from a Heim????... When it spins around the bolt.. So why put a bolt vertical, when the most travel comes from it being horizontal???? My advice to you... Is forget about putting in a TRE.... and just build a bracket fromthe stock frame bracket that allows you to bolt the heim horizontal.. You will get way better flex, and the joint will actually last longer as its now being used as it was intended!!! HTH Ryan

The hitch steel is the same as any other 1/4" wall square tubing except it has large radius corners... Its more for looks, and to empty your wallet even more... Yeah its more for marketing.... HTH Ryan

Yeah, A bunch of my clubs members went down last year and really enjoyed... http://gallery.hot4x4.ca/album295 http://gallery.hot4x4.ca/album294 I want to go, but don't think I'll have the MJ ready in time... and if I do.. I probably won't have the money.... Tough luck.. oh well.. maybe the year after that!!!! Have fun!!! Ryan

These are hilarious!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -No, we won't do research for you to see if a hub cap will work as a spacer for your throttle body just because you happen to have found one in your uncle's crawlspace. -POST IN ALL CAPS!!!!!!! USE LOTS OF EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS SHOWS EVERYONE THAT YOU REALLY MEAN BUSINESS WHEN YOU POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -Answer every post you come across with a vaguely useless answer you heard from someone who was told that somebody had an uncle who's buddy's brother had a Geo that did the exact same thing... only different. -Tell us about the time you went to the local 4wd store and the counter guy acted like you were crazy just for wanting a body lift for your XJ. We love that story. -Post your question on 50 different forums hoping that someone will eventually give you an answer you want to hear. -Refuse to even try the search engine. After all, it's only there to annoy you. Better to just ask the same question that seven other people have asked today (just to be sure). After all, your Jeep is blue and that probably affects the answer. -Stickers DO increase horsepower and torque SEE THE REST OF THE LIST AT THE LINK BELOW http://www.lunghd.com/Idiocy/The_List.htm Ryan

I run a 4' wilson Fibreglass Flex and love it!!! Way better than your standard fibreglass, and I prefer them over the steel whips. The flex is more flexiable than a steel whip and doesnt require a spring. You can take the tip, and bend it over to touch its base and it won't break. BUt still stiff enough that it doesnt go whipping around when wheeling, with the chance of taken out a bystander's eye... I run mine just down the pass. side front fender on a 90* bracket. HTH Ryan

Exactly, thats why I said they weren't proven and a person should verify themselves.. And from how I read it, the difference with the WJ calipers, was the fitting was lower on the caliper than the XJ/MJ. At least its a bit of a head start when trying to fit something up... HTH Ryan

Hey Folks, I got this off another list I'm on and thought it would help some of you http://www.grobe.us/Jeep/Tech/Drivetrain/Brakes/rubberhose/ExtendedBrakeHoses.htm Its a list of stock brake lines from other vehicles that have the same fittings as the MJ, but that are longer than MJ stock length. Now this list hasnt been proven, so its to be used as a guide, and you should verify yourself. This is definetly cheaper than going the SS braided line route, in most cases. HTH Ryan

I guess that would be the same as 3M-TA3 That plate is banned in my neck of the woods.... Ryan

Hey Folks, I just got back from a week in Mexico, East Side.. It was a blast, espcially looking at all the different types of vehicles they have down there that are not in the US or Canada... such as 4-door Rangers, Chevy LUV Trucks, Chevy Chevy Cars, Chevy Tornados, Dodge Attitudes.. etc... oh and lots of VW bugs... Then there was the typical TJ's, a few liberty's, and I saw one XJ, which was lifted to boot!!! But what I was really amazed at, was on the last day of my trip heading back to the airport, and of course, out of reach of my camera.. was a yellow short box MJ!!!!.... The only MJ I saw the whole week down there, and it was yellow!!!.. So I'm guessing for those who didnt win the pennzoil yellow MJ's. they might have only been available in Mexico.... Ryan

Yeah, I've looked for years for a cover for my bench (not because it was ripped, but I wanted to preserve the cloth)... but couldnt find one.. So instead, I'm swapping in bucket seats, which are a lot easier to find covers for... So, I have my bench seat for sale.... http://www.comancheclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=856&highlight= At this point, I'll take any reasonable offer... the only bad thing... I'm in the Great white north(but very close to the US border, and can drive across to ship)... but am willing to work with you and box/crate/ship/whatever it takes to get this thing off my hands and into yours. Much better than it sitting in the shed for a few years, and then eventually getting tossed... THanks, Ryan