Home Electrical issue

[Dzimm]

4 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Did you see this above?

Yes I did however the hole they come through the wall is kinda tight and packed with insulation so it doesn't move much.  

[Manche757]

1 minute ago, Dzimm said:

Yes I did however the hole they come through the wall is kinda tight and packed with insulation so it doesn't move much.  

Loosen the screw and remove the wire from the box.  Tug on it. Does the wire under the sink move?  If so, pull the wire out from the box and replace the screw.

[Dzimm]

1 minute ago, Manche757 said:

Loosen the screw and remove the wire from the box.  Tug on it. Does the wire under the sink move?  If so, pull the wire out from the box and replace the screw.

The screw on the closest box is under the box so I have no way to remove it.  

 

Also they "dummy proofed" the stove.  It doesn't have an amp rating anywhere, just says use wire rated for 125/250 volts or rated for stoves.  

[Manche757]

29 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

The screw on the closest box is under the box so I have no way to remove it.    

 

Remove the screw inside box at back and check to see it wire is one of the two loose ones under the sink

[Manche757]

30 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

Also they "dummy proofed" the stove.  It doesn't have an amp rating anywhere, just says use wire rated for 125/250 volts or rated for stoves.  

Amps are not listed on a plate on the back of the stove or anywhere?   No watts either (which would be a large number?)  Why don't you google the electrical draw for your stove.  If you happen to have an owner's manual, check it.

[Manche757]

I would recommend that you run a new cable to kitchen outlets.  12/2 with ground on a 20 amp breaker for a 120 volt line. 

I would also recommend that you run a 12/2 with ground to the dishwater on a 20 amp breaker for 120 volt line on a dedicated circuit.

You were looking to power a microwave. Is this a 1100 watt counter top unit or a bigger one that will be mounted where your range hood is?   If a counter top 1100 watt one, you don't need a dedicated outlet.

Your refrigerator should be on a dedicated 20 amp circuit also.

As regards ground fault interrupter circuits, you have a choice of a breaker in the panel or an outlet at the box.  The ones at the box have limited life.  When they fail, usually they stop providing power (a good thing) rather that losing the capacity to interrupt the circuit (a bad thing.)

The new circuits are worthwhile even if you were not adrift in feedback to (energized) ground. 

 

[Dzimm]

3 hours ago, Manche757 said:

 

Remove the screw inside box at back and check to see it wire is one of the two loose ones under the sink

This one is on a different wall and is likely the one in the attic

[Eagle]

5 hours ago, Eagle said:

 

Correct -- there should be current in the grounding side only if/when there's a fault in the system.

 

 

I stated that incorrectly. There should be no current in the grounding conductor (or the metal boxes) at all if there's nothing plugged into the outlets. The grounding conductor (the third hole in a 3-prong receptacle) is there to protect the operator if there's a fault inside an appliance or device that would allow current to energize the outer enclosure that people can touch. By providing a path to ground for such stray currents, it's supposed to prevent the stray current from going to ground through you when you pick up or touch the defective device.

 

Again to save me having to go back through the entire discussion -- do any of these circuits have both light fixtures and wall outlets on the same circuit?

[Eagle]

4 hours ago, Dzimm said:

 

Also they "dummy proofed" the stove.  It doesn't have an amp rating anywhere, just says use wire rated for 125/250 volts or rated for stoves.  

 

That's not especially helpful since wire size is rated by amperage, not voltage.

[Dzimm]

1 minute ago, Eagle said:

 

That's not especially helpful since wire size is rated by amperage, not voltage.

Right, they don't want to overcomplicate it for people but then they don't put the info on it people actually need.  

[Eagle]

4 hours ago, Manche757 said:

 

Remove the screw inside box at back and check to see it wire is one of the two loose ones under the sink

 

As I think we have already determined, the ground wire was clearly added at some point after the house was built. It comes into the box through a separate opening on the bottom, not through the top with the hot and neutral conductors.

 

Stupid me, I was about to write that it's a code violation because it doesn't have a strain relief or a protective bushing at the opening in the box. Then I woke up and remembered it's a ground wire, so it doesn't have to be insulated and it's supposed to touch the box (:duh:), so an insulating bushing would be counter-productive.

 

[Manche757]

18 hours ago, Dzimm said:

 Also they "dummy proofed" the stove.  It doesn't have an amp rating anywhere, just says use wire rated for 125/250 volts or rated for stoves.  

If you open the oven door, there should be a plate on the oven that is hidden when the door is closed. If there is a drawer for pots and pans below the oven, the plate may be there.  Power to larger appliances and machinery is expressed differently.  The plate should give the model and serial number.  Additionally you should see something like:  120/240 V,  AC only, 8.5 KW @ 208 V.   Homes in the US have single phase current.  Business and commercial places have 3 phase that allows for more flexibility and efficiency.  With a little simple algebra you can convert to amps.  KW is kilowatt and equals 1000 watts.  Amps X volts = Watts.     (KW X !000) / volts = amps.  In this case: (8.5 X 1000) / 208 = 40.87 amps which is the power required 

[Manche757]

Got a pic of the white wires you saw in the attic?

[Manche757]

Got a pic of the white wires you saw in the attic?

[Manche757]

This pic might win some prize.

 

 

The black cable on the side was run later.  I can not see all that goes in there.  I count 10 conductors and no grounds.  Can you spread the wires and take another pic?  I can not tell if any cables enter from the left.  The red conductors  are probably for dual hot lines for 3 way and 4 way switches that control the same lights and are part of 14/3 ga cables with no ground.  There will be  black, red, and white conductors in the same cable.  Monkey man has worked in this box.  The junctions and taping is too sloppy.

[Manche757]

This pic of the bathroom box is more fun than a Rubik's cube.  

 

 

I can not see all cables coming in to the box, but what I see looks like it has not been molested but a ground fault interrupter added.  The GFIC can give false readings if grounded to neutral but they still give you protection by tripping quicker.  Can you get a pic that shows the conductors in each of the 4 cables feeding from the top?  One will be the hot line and the others feed off of it.  There could be 2 circuits there but don't think so from what I see.  You should use a plastic crevice tool on your shop vac to scrap and clean the plaster out of the box.  It will cause rust, especially in a bathroom with shower.

[Dzimm]

Well the electrician came and basically the issue is due to no ground.  When someone installed PEX they broke the ground causing the power everywhere.  It's phantom power and is visible due to no ground.  He got it partially fixed today.  Gonna send someone out tomorrow to finish.

[Eagle]

That makes sense. And I hope that makes it a relatively easy fix. Please let us know what he's doing to create the new ground.

[Dzimm]

2 hours ago, Eagle said:

That makes sense. And I hope that makes it a relatively easy fix. Please let us know what he's doing to create the new ground.

He basically ran a ground wire from the meter to the plumbing past the PEX and attached the white ground wire in the attic to the plumbing up there.  

 

There are a few outlets that have the ground wire but he couldn't find where it went and they still have 2.2v meaning they aren't grounded to anything so that will be looked at as well tomorrow.

[Eagle]

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

He basically ran a ground wire from the meter to the plumbing past the PEX and attached the white ground wire in the attic to the plumbing up there.  

 

 

What good does connecting to the plumbing upstairs do if that plumbing is isolated from ground by the length of PEX? That can work only if he installs a jumper to connect (bond) the metal plumbing pipes on either side of the PEX with one another.

[Eagle]

From the 2014 NEC --

 

Section 250.5(A):

 

Quote

(5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of the overcurrent device or ground detector for high-impedance grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be considered as an effective ground-fault current path.

 

I don't think grounding to a plumbing pipe somewhere in the house is what the NEC has in mind,

 

Section 250.8:

 

Quote

(A) Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one or more of the following means:
(1) Listed pressure connectors

(2) Terminal bars
(3) Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment
(4) Exothermic welding process
(5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are secured with a nut
(6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two threads in the enclosure
(7) Connections that are part of a listed assembly
(8) Other listed means

 

By "listed" in #8, the code means listed by a recognized testing agency such as Underwriters Laboratories (UL), and installed in accordance with the methods spelled out in the listing.

 

This is getting above my pay grade, so I just called a friend who is a master electrician and a licensed electrical inspector. When I got to the part about connecting the white wire upstairs to the plumbing, he about jumped out of his skin. He said that would energize the entire plumbing system in the house and you could get zapped just sitting on the throne to take a dump.

 

My friend is now interested. Where -- exactly -- is the PEX in the system, and where did the guy make the new grounding connection beyond the PEX -- in the basement, or outside of the foundation?

[Manche757]

5 hours ago, Dzimm said:

Well the electrician came. 

Smat move. I am sure you will be glad to have it all behind you. It would be interesting to learn what else he does

[Dzimm]

51 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

What good does connecting to the plumbing upstairs do if that plumbing is isolated from ground by the length of PEX? That can work only if he installs a jumper to connect (bond) the metal plumbing pipes on either side of the PEX with one another.

That's what he did.  He jumped the PEX section back to the meter.

[Dzimm]

28 minutes ago, Eagle said:

From the 2014 NEC --

 

Section 250.5(A):

 

 

I don't think grounding to a plumbing pipe somewhere in the house is what the NEC has in mind,

 

Section 250.8:

 

 

By "listed" in #8, the code means listed by a recognized testing agency such as Underwriters Laboratories (UL), and installed in accordance with the methods spelled out in the listing.

 

This is getting above my pay grade, so I just called a friend who is a master electrician and a licensed electrical inspector. When I got to the part about connecting the white wire upstairs to the plumbing, he about jumped out of his skin. He said that would energize the entire plumbing system in the house and you could get zapped just sitting on the throne to take a dump.

 

My friend is now interested. Where -- exactly -- is the PEX in the system, and where did the guy make the new grounding connection beyond the PEX -- in the basement, or outside of the foundation?

In the basement/crawlspace (it's basically a 4ft high basement with a sand floor) and the PEX is random sections between the meter and the faucets, there's a total of maybe 10 feet.  The plumbing was originally the ground for those outlets, the PEX broke the ground so he put it back. 

 

The white wire is the ground at the outlets so it wouldn't energize the plumbing unless I touched hot while taking said dump, which would shock anyone regardless.

[Dzimm]

1 hour ago, Eagle said: