Home Electrical issue

[Dzimm]

7 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Do the test again on various outlet.  Hot slot and metal in middle

 

 

Bedroom - 3v

Bathroom - 120v

Spare bedroom - 60v 

Living room - 4.5v

Kitchen (circuit 2) -  38v

kitchen (circuit 2) GFCI - 11.2v

Garage1 - 48v

Garage2 I installed for my deep freeze, tied into same breaker as garage 1 - 120v

Garage3 different breaker - 5.7v

[Dzimm]

10 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

test hot to box while you are there

 

Hot to box and hot to center screw is giving the same voltage

[Manche757]

The results that I would expect normally would be hot to box or center screw:  120 with ground at box.  zero or near without ground.

 

Hypothesis:  Current was passing to ground at kitchen locations before you started your back splash project.. So long as you did not remove covers and touch box and ground to something else you touch in the kitchen, you were not shocked or aware of it.   When wet mortar came in contact with the box and at the same time you touched something that grounded you (in this case the stove), you felt a shock.  

 

Solution tried:  isolate where the boxes are being energized and correct the feedback.  So far the point of current to box has not been found

[Manche757]

Chances are the problem did not exist when an electrician put in the new panel.  You might want to look at changes that were made with after that.  A next place to start would be in the kitchen

 

[Dzimm]

14 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

The results that I would expect normally would be hot to box or center screw:  120 with ground at box.  zero or near without ground.

 

Hypothesis:  Current was passing to ground at kitchen locations before you started your back splash project.. So long as you did not remove covers and touch box and ground to something else you touch in the kitchen, you were not shocked or aware of it.   When wet mortar came in contact with the box and at the same time you touched something that grounded you (in this case the stove), you felt a shock.  

 

Solution tried:  isolate where the boxes are being energized and correct the feedback.  So far the point of current to box has not been found

That sounds about right.  

[Manche757]

You do not have that many grounded boxes/outlets.  Depending on how much more you are willing to do, I would suggest you go back to the kitchen 

 

[Manche757]

Did you locate what the other ends of the two white wires were hooked to?

[Dzimm]

9 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

Did you locate what the other ends of the two white wires were hooked to?

I have been unable to locate them.  I'm off to work for the night and will be back at it tomorrow.  I'll start really digging into all the kitchen wiring and see what I can find.

[Manche757]

Got time for a quick test?   Turn off breaker to a bedroom that does not have known ground.  Test an outlet hot  to neutral slot.  And box to neutral slot

[BeaterComanche86]

3 hours ago, Manche757 said:

Man, let's all gather around at your house with a case of beer,

A case of beers and we could clear this up in a few minutes.

 

I think while your panel is open and also you seem comfortable with doing some electrical work I would install a ground bar in your panel.

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-21-Terminal-Ground-Bar-for-Type-CH-and-Type-BR-Panels-GBK2120/302610360?cm_mmc=Shopping|G|Base|All-Products|All|All|PLA|71700000014585962|58700001236285396|92700010802552412&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImJaRmfbz4gIVSCaGCh2CHwYhEAQYASABEgKxv_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

By doing this your at least isolating the grounds you currently have to an actual earth ground. Basically all of your bare copper wires you want to land on this guy. Also don’t forget to install the large wire that goes to your ground rod outside on the largest screw, this is key. 

Your also going to need to remove the green screw at the bottom of your panel that bonds your neutral bar to the panel. And I should have said this first but make sure you TURN OFF your main breaker before doing this. Be careful with your feeder wires coming from your meter if you decide to do this as those will still be on.

[BeaterComanche86]

I’m also curious what the amperage reading on that ground rod wire is.

Anyway you could post a picture of your tester while doing this? When you have the time of course.

[Eagle]

On 6/17/2019 at 1:09 AM, Dzimm said:

They are separate from the other wires.  One is white and attached to the underside of the box, the other two are brown and attached to the very back of the box on the inside.  

 

I'm used to the typical Romex and organized wiring.  So far this house has been a bunch of cobbling and a complete mess of old wiring so I wouldn't be surprised if they ground to a pipe.

 

As far as I know, all Romex has a separate neutral (white) and ground (bare) conductor, and is mostly used with plastic outlet boxes. When using Romex with steel boxes, the grounding conductor in the Romex has to connect to the grounding screw on the receptacle and to the box. There's often a grounding screw in the back face of the box fr this purpose.

 

If the house is wired with armored metallic cable ("BX"), then there probably isn't a separate grounding conductor. In older BX cable, the metal sheath itself was the grounding conductor. The armored cable we can buy today has a bonding conductor running in it, but it's still the armored housing itself that's the primary grounding conductor. But the kind of current leakage you are describing sounds like more than a simple grounding issue. It's dangerous, and the circuits involved should be turned off at the circuit breakers until they can be checked and repaired by an electrician. I suspect that you may have a frayed conductor inside the BX cable that's allowing current to escape from the hot (black) wire directly to the metal sheath. That's serious.

 

Don't just hope that the problem will go away when the mortar dries. The problem shouldn't be there when the mortar is damp, so allowing the mortar to dry doesn't do anything to fix the problem.

[Eagle]

On 6/17/2019 at 10:47 AM, Manche757 said:

 I assume your state follows the BOCA code.  

 

 

There is no BOCA code. It went away in 1999. For single family houses, every state now uses some edition of the International Residential Code, which allows following either the electrical provisions in the IRC or using the NEC (National Electrical Code).

 

The IRC is available on-line at www.iccsafe.org.

[Eagle]

On 6/17/2019 at 3:10 PM, Dzimm said:

All the wiring looks to be hooked up where it's supposed to be.  There however are no wires that come in by themselves for ground meaning the single wires attached to the receptical boxes are grounded elsewhere in the house.

 

That could be the problem. In the primary panel, the neutral bus is supposed to be bonded to the grounding bus. It sounds like your problem may be lack of bonding between neutral and ground.

[Dzimm]

1 hour ago, BeaterComanche86 said:

A case of beers and we could clear this up in a few minutes.

 

I think while your panel is open and also you seem comfortable with doing some electrical work I would install a ground bar in your panel.

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-21-Terminal-Ground-Bar-for-Type-CH-and-Type-BR-Panels-GBK2120/302610360?cm_mmc=Shopping|G|Base|All-Products|All|All|PLA|71700000014585962|58700001236285396|92700010802552412&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImJaRmfbz4gIVSCaGCh2CHwYhEAQYASABEgKxv_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

By doing this your at least isolating the grounds you currently have to an actual earth ground. Basically all of your bare copper wires you want to land on this guy. Also don’t forget to install the large wire that goes to your ground rod outside on the largest screw, this is key. 

Your also going to need to remove the green screw at the bottom of your panel that bonds your neutral bar to the panel. And I should have said this first but make sure you TURN OFF your main breaker before doing this. Be careful with your feeder wires coming from your meter if you decide to do this as those will still be on.

This will happen sometime soon and the entire box will be done up correctly.  As of now the shop wiring doesn't effect the issue in the house so it is going to stay as is until I get the house figured out. 

[Dzimm]

1 hour ago, Eagle said:

 

That could be the problem. In the primary panel, the neutral bus is supposed to be bonded to the grounding bus. It sounds like your problem may be lack of bonding between neutral and ground.

The more I read up on this the more likely this sounds.  Where and how is it typically bonded if not in the panel?  I suppose the water meter area?

[BeaterComanche86]

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

This will happen sometime soon and the entire box will be done up correctly.  As of now the shop wiring doesn't effect the issue in the house so it is going to stay as is until I get the house figured out. 

I ment that you could do this in your home panel so that your grounds and neutral wouldn’t be connected and there would be no neutral bleed on your ground wire but disregard that as I was wrong about the neutral and ground not being bonded. I apologize, just start opening boxes and find all the neutrals that are spliced to the added ground or any hots that may be attached. 

Also the first panel pictured your bonding screw is at the bottom (green) so your could try tightening it to make sure the bonds tight

[Manche757]

From the pic you sent, the neutral and grounding bars look to be connected. Are you back home?

[Eagle]

But bonding the neutral and ground bus bars in the panel don't help if some genius ran supplemental ground wires to the metal boxes that didn't originally have them, and then didn't run those ground wires back to the panel. If he grounded them to a water pipe, the water pipe may not be bonded to the electrical system.

[Dzimm]

59 minutes ago, Eagle said:

But bonding the neutral and ground bus bars in the panel don't help if some genius ran supplemental ground wires to the metal boxes that didn't originally have them, and then didn't run those ground wires back to the panel. If he grounded them to a water pipe, the water pipe may not be bonded to the electrical system.

This is exactly what I'm thinking may be the issue.  

[Dzimm]

1 hour ago, Manche757 said:

From the pic you sent, the neutral and grounding bars look to be connected. Are you back home?

No I'm still at work, it's kinda slow tonight.  Won't be home until the AM.   Neutral and ground bars are connected in both the main and sub panel.  Issue for another day in the sub panel.

[Manche757]

From what I can see of your panel, there are 4 220v circuits. Stove at top right? Shop lower left. What other two for? Are you on city water or well? Electric or gas water heater?

[Dzimm]

58 minutes ago, Manche757 said:

From what I can see of your panel, there are 4 220v circuits. Stove at top right? Shop lower left. What other two for? Are you on city water or well? Electric or gas water heater?

City water gas water heater.  One of the other two is for the dryer.  The other idk.  I do however have 2 block off plates in the kitchen with 220v wiring capped off.  That makes 5 total 220v outlets on 4 breakers and I have no clue where the splice is or if something was actually disconnected properly.  The laundry room was in the kitchen originally and the stove was on a different wall hence why these other two exist.  

[Manche757]

Ok. We do not have to worry about losing the prime on an above ground water pump that might have a leaking check valve, if power is turned off. Also you have already determed that your kitchen water pipe has continuity to ground. Copper pipe connected to metal city water main is assumed.  Ground to cold water pipe used to be allowed until nonmetallic water pipe came along. No air condition circuits?  

[Manche757]

When you are home and have time, turn off all breakers. Test from kitchen outlet box to the same water pipe you used before. Should get no power. Then turn on one breaker at a time and retest at same box to water pipe. If no power, leave breaker on and turn on next breaker. Continue on. If you get power at any time, turn off that breaker and test rest of breakers. Hopefully, this will isolate the problem circuit(s).