2wd Brake woes

[Dzimm]

So after replacing the brake lines and upgrading the master and booster in the 92, I had an issue with the brakes sticking due to air trapped in the master I think.  Anyway I got the sticking issue fixed but I did end up smoking the brakes while testing and ended up with warped rotors. 

 

The strange thing is that on my 45 minute drive to and from work, about 10 minutes down the highway at 60-70mph, the front end starts to oscelate slowly and rapidly gets bad enough I have to pull over.  After stopping, I take off again, drive highway speeds the rest of the way with no issue at all.   This all started immediately after warping the rotors so I'm pretty sure that's the issue.  Before warping the rotors, I could drive all the way to work, up to 80mph the whole way with no issues. 

 

The problem I'm having now is finding replacement brake pads and rotors because of the crazy 2wd one piece hub/rotor thing.  I've been scowering old threads and autoparts websites, I'm looking for some sort of upgrade parts but I can only find those for 4wd models.  Anyone know of better pads, rotors, or calipers than the basic ones available?  Also why does autozone list the regular rotors as fitting the 2wd, just with "  *rotor only " shown under the listing?  Is there a way to split the hub and rotor and just replace the rotor or is it truly a one piece and autozone is just crazy?  

 

Also, I want to confirm what I think the replacement process is for these.  What I'm reading seems to be a mixed bag of people's opinions.  

- remove cotterpin

- pull off the nut with 36mm

- pull then replace hub/rotor 

- tighten nut to 25ft/lbs

- back nut off 1/2 turn

- replace cotterpin

This look correct? 

 

[Eagle]

Some years of the XJ/MJ used the same hub/bearing units and rotors for the 2WD as they did for the 4WD. The old-style 2WD spindles and rotors that are integral with the hub are rare.

 

Do your rotors have enough thickness to turn them?

[Dzimm]

5 hours ago, Eagle said:

Some years of the XJ/MJ used the same hub/bearing units and rotors for the 2WD as they did for the 4WD. The old-style 2WD spindles and rotors that are integral with the hub are rare.

 

Do your rotors have enough thickness to turn them?

What I've been reading online says the opposite.  Says that only the 86 MJ had both styles and all other 2wd Jeeps until 1993 had the spindle.  

 

Looking at mine from the back side, they look like spindles, there is the dome dust cap on the outside, and feeling around behind the rim I can feel two seems on the rotor behind the wheel that looks to match the pictures I'm seeing of the integrated rotor/hub.  

 

As far as turning the rotors, I haven't looked close enough at them but for the price, I'd rather just replace them. 

 

Not that you can see much but here is a picture I took earlier today.   You can see it has the 2wd style caliper, and from what I'm reading, those don't interchange with 4wd calipers.  I suppose I could change out the knuckles but then I might as well just find a whole new axle. 

[Eagle]

5 hours ago, Dzimm said:

What I've been reading online says the opposite.  Says that only the 86 MJ had both styles and all other 2wd Jeeps until 1993 had the spindle.  

 

...

 

As far as turning the rotors, I haven't looked close enough at them but for the price, I'd rather just replace them. 

 

 

(1) They didn't stop building Jeeps in 1993.

 

(2) I thought you said you couldn't find replacements.

[Dzimm]

5 hours ago, Eagle said:

 

(1) They didn't stop building Jeeps in 1993.

 

(2) I thought you said you couldn't find replacements.

Supposedly in 1993 they stopped making the spindle style 2wd Jeeps and they started to share the hub and brake parts with the 4wd models. 

 

I found a couple rotors from some no name companies on rockauto but I was hoping for something better with some improved performance.  As for brake pads, I'm not seeing much.  It just seems like no big companies make or carries brake parts for the spindle style 2wd. 

[HOrnbrod]

Search by part number. RockAuto and others all have it all:

 

53002928, ROTOR, Brake, 2WD
5252986, L Caliper, 2WD
5252987, R Caliper, 2WD

5252613, Pad Package, 2WD

 

92-1/2 is when the 2WD rotors/calipers changed to the 4WD type. Last time I did calipers / pads, I got rebuilt calipers from O'Reilly's,  Raybestos brand.

[Dzimm]

48 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

Search by part number. RockAuto and others all have it all:

 

53002928, ROTOR, Brake, 2WD
5252986, L Caliper, 2WD
5252987, R Caliper, 2WD

5252613, Pad Package, 2WD

 

92-1/2 is when the 2WD rotors/calipers changed to the 4WD type. Last time I did calipers / pads, I got rebuilt calipers from O'Reilly's,  Raybestos brand.

Part numbers helped a bunch.  Looks as tho there are nothing on the performance side for these brakes.  I think I've got everything I need ready to purchase on rockauto.  

 

I also found my Haynes manual and located the wheel bearing service for the 2wd and am shocked to find the nut only needs to be hand tight.  That's crazy to me. 

 

[HOrnbrod]

8 minutes ago, Dzimm said:

I also found my Haynes manual and located the wheel bearing service for the 2wd and am shocked to find the nut only needs to be hand tight.  That's crazy to me.

 

That's wrong as the Hayes generic manual usually is.

 

"Tighten the adjustment nut to 21 ft. lbs to seat the bearings while rotating the wheel by hand. Then loosen nut 1/2 turn, again rotate the wheel and tighten to 19 ft. lbs. final torque. Replace cotter pin."

 

Lose or burn the Haynes and invest in a set of the factory service manuals. 

[Dzimm]

11 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

 

That's wrong as the Hayes generic manual usually is.

 

"Tighten the adjustment nut to 21 ft. lbs to seat the bearings while rotating the wheel by hand. Then loosen nut 1/2 turn, again rotate the wheel and tighten to 19 ft. lbs. final torque. Replace cotter pin."

 

Lose or burn the Haynes and invest in a set of the factory service manuals. 

Yeah that is much closer to what I was reading online.  I feel better about that process.  I would love to get some FSM but I can't afford all the different sets I would need.  I usually can find the info I need online but this was hard to find good info on.  

 

Speaking of cotter pins, I assume there are stronger cotter pins for axles.  I was looking at the assorted sets on Amazon just to have a huge batch at hand but I'm worried they are softer steel, especially since this truck will be driven hard.  Do I need to source a stronger pin and relatively expensive pin or is it worth it? Also do you know what size the pin is?  The Haynes has no info on it. 

[gogmorgo]

I don't think there are special cotter pins for axle nuts, just get some that fit nicely in the hole.

The nut and threads on the spindle are what take the load from driving forces. The cotter pin just stops the nut from turning and changing the preload on the bearing. 

[HOrnbrod]

I keep an assortment of different diameter / length cotter pins in the hardware cabinet. It's best to use the largest diameter size that will fit through the spindle hole.  There's little to no pressure on the pin from the spindle nut once it's torqued correctly and it's douched up well with bearing grease.

[HOrnbrod]

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

Looks as tho there are nothing on the performance side for these brakes.  I think I've got everything I need ready to purchase on rockauto. 

 

No, I've never found any "performance" brakes for 2WD or 4WD MJs. About the best you can do is get a quality set of pads. Last set I got some ceramic pads and I love them. Good stopping power, no squeals, and zero brake dust.

[Dzimm]

Awesome.  Thanks everyone for the help.  I think everything is squared away.  Just gotta wait for delivery. 

[Eagle]

3 hours ago, Dzimm said:

 

Speaking of cotter pins, I assume there are stronger cotter pins for axles.  I was looking at the assorted sets on Amazon just to have a huge batch at hand but I'm worried they are softer steel, especially since this truck will be driven hard.  Do I need to source a stronger pin and relatively expensive pin or is it worth it? Also do you know what size the pin is?  The Haynes has no info on it. 

 

There are no stronger cotter pins, and you don't need a stronger cotter pin. The cotter pin on the 2WD spindle does the same job as the cotter pin on a tie rod end -- it's only purpose is to lock the nut and keep it from turning itself loose. After you torque the nut the second time, there's a retainer that fits over it with the ears that engage the cotter pin. You may have to loosen or tighten the nut slightly to get the gaps in the retainer to align with the hole in the spindle. Go whichever way means less turning. Personally, I always back it off to line up with the hole.

 

In the old days, even on the race car, we didn't torque the nut, we snugged it down (using a wrench) while turning the wheel, until there was no play when wiggling the tire when grabbed at the top and bottom. Then we backed off just enough to get the retainer to align with the hole in the spindle. Those old-style hubs use two tapered roller bearings, one inner and one outer, and they don't need (or want) a lot of preload. They just want to be tight enough that they stay in place.

[Dzimm]

42 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

There are no stronger cotter pins, and you don't need a stronger cotter pin. The cotter pin on the 2WD spindle does the same job as the cotter pin on a tie rod end -- it's only purpose is to lock the nut and keep it from turning itself loose. After you torque the nut the second time, there's a retainer that fits over it with the ears that engage the cotter pin. You may have to loosen or tighten the nut slightly to get the gaps in the retainer to align with the hole in the spindle. Go whichever way means less turning. Personally, I always back it off to line up with the hole.

 

In the old days, even on the race car, we didn't torque the nut, we snugged it down (using a wrench) while turning the wheel, until there was no play when wiggling the tire when grabbed at the top and bottom. Then we backed off just enough to get the retainer to align with the hole in the spindle. Those old-style hubs use two tapered roller bearings, one inner and one outer, and they don't need (or want) a lot of preload. They just want to be tight enough that they stay in place.

See that's just crazy to me.  But hey if it works it works.  

 

Here's the list of parts I ordered.   Went ahead and got new bearings and everything.  Got cotter pins and bearing grease coming from Amazon. 

[Eagle]

1 hour ago, Dzimm said:

See that's just crazy to me.  But hey if it works it works.  

 

 

That's the way it's supposed to work. Just for yuks, I pulled out the FSM for my old 1966 Rambler American. It had the same front wheel setup (except it had drums rather than rotors). The procedure in 1966 was:

 

• Torque to 20 ft-lbs while rotating wheel
  
• Install lock retainer on the nut so that tabs cover the cotter pin hole
  
• Back off nut and retainer to the slot, and install cotter pin
  
  

 

While you're waiting for your parts to arrive, read up on how to properly pack wheel bearings with grease.

[Dzimm]

1 hour ago, Eagle said:

 

While you're waiting for your parts to arrive, read up on how to properly pack wheel bearings with grease.

Actually that brings up a question I've always wondered.  I've seen people do it 2 different ways and both seem to be correct, but which is better or which do you guys who've done this a few times over the years do it?  

 

First way is slowly pushing bearing into the grease glob and rotating the bearing until it's had grease pushed in all over. 

 

Second way is to do the rapid slamming the bearing into the grease glob and rotating as you go.  

[Eagle]

5 hours ago, Dzimm said:

Actually that brings up a question I've always wondered.  I've seen people do it 2 different ways and both seem to be correct, but which is better or which do you guys who've done this a few times over the years do it?  

 

First way is slowly pushing bearing into the grease glob and rotating the bearing until it's had grease pushed in all over. 

 

Second way is to do the rapid slamming the bearing into the grease glob and rotating as you go.  

 

IMHO, neither way is correct. If you don't have a tool for packing the bearings, put on your blue nitrile rubber gloves, hold the bearing in your left hand (if you're right handed), pick up a glob of grease with the right hand, and force it into all the internal voids in the bearing. It's better to grab small globs, and refill as necessary, rather than picking up a fist full of grease and getting it everywhere except where it belongs -- which is inside the bearing assembly.

 

Also, FYI, good wheel bearing grease is long-fiber grease, which is different from the stuff that comes in tubes for use in grease guns. The grease gun stuff is better than nothing, but if you use that you'll need to service the bearings a lot more frequently,

 

Bearing packer: https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-65250-Bearing-Packer/dp/B0002NYDYY/ref=sr_1_5?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1538893455&sr=1-5&keywords=bearing+packer+tool

 

If you use the packing tool with a Zerk fitting, then you have to use standard grease. The long-fiber bearing grease won't go through a gun or the fitting.

 

Bearing grease: https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-grease-and-lube-hi-temp-disc-brake-wheel-bearing-grease-16-oz-814-16/7070071-P?navigationPath=L1*14924|L2*15038|L3*16167

[Dzimm]

32 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

IMHO, neither way is correct. If you don't have a tool for packing the bearings, put on your blue nitrile rubber gloves, hold the bearing in your left hand (if you're right handed), pick up a glob of grease with the right hand, and force it into all the internal voids in the bearing. It's better to grab small globs, and refill as necessary, rather than picking up a fist full of grease and getting it everywhere except where it belongs -- which is inside the bearing assembly.

 

Also, FYI, good wheel bearing grease is long-fiber grease, which is different from the stuff that comes in tubes for use in grease guns. The grease gun stuff is better than nothing, but if you use that you'll need to service the bearings a lot more frequently,

 

Bearing packer: https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-65250-Bearing-Packer/dp/B0002NYDYY/ref=sr_1_5?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1538893455&sr=1-5&keywords=bearing+packer+tool

 

If you use the packing tool with a Zerk fitting, then you have to use standard grease. The long-fiber bearing grease won't go through a gun or the fitting.

 

Bearing grease: https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-grease-and-lube-hi-temp-disc-brake-wheel-bearing-grease-16-oz-814-16/7070071-P?navigationPath=L1*14924|L2*15038|L3*16167

Yeah I went with grease designed for wheel bearings.  

 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0077K8WJC/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_z8AUBbEVC5HC1

 

I didn't know there was a special tool to pack bearings.  I've just seen it done with the glob of grease in the hand like you describe. 

[Jeep Driver]

I assumed that most of you guys here are 'car/truck' guys and that you'd keep up with others are doing, guess not.

 

 

 

 

[Knucklehead97]

I ran into the same issue with finding 2wd rotor/bearing combos. So I opted to swap to the newer style that came on Cherokees (hub/rotor separate.) The way that I did it was I just swapped in a 98 XJ front 2wd axle, BUT I'm almost positive you could just swap Caliper, Hub, Knuckle, and rotor onto your 2wd axle.

[Dzimm]

So I got the brakes finished up last night and everything went well.  I am a little concerned however because it looks like someone went crazy with a grinder on the drivers side spindle.  There were no metal shavings in the hub when I removed it so it's not the bearings causing it but I don't want the thing to snap off on me.  

 

The cuts aren't very deep but I can't imagine it wouldn't affect strength in some way. 

[HOrnbrod]

I think that spindle had a spinning dry bearing at one time in it's life causing the scoring, not someone with a grinder. Instead or replacing the spindle assembly, some PO just cleaned it up the best he could then installed new bearings and races.

[AZJeff]

On 10/15/2018 at 8:13 AM, Dzimm said:

So I got the brakes finished up last night and everything went well.  I am a little concerned however because it looks like someone went crazy with a grinder on the drivers side spindle.  There were no metal shavings in the hub when I removed it so it's not the bearings causing it but I don't want the thing to snap off on me.  

 

The cuts aren't very deep but I can't imagine it wouldn't affect strength in some way. 

The scoring in the cylindrical area inboard of the threads is where the inner race of the outer (smaller) wheel bearing would ride.  If that area is chewed up enough to no longer align the bearing to be concentric with the centerline of the spindle, you are going to see shortened wheel bearing life and/or bearing overheating.

THere is also a slim possibility that this spindle might suffer a catastrophic failure in this area due to uneven stresses being imposed on the part.   That would make life real exciting if you were on the highway when it happened.  (Please note--I am NOT saying this failure is probable, only that is POSSIBLE.)

 

If it was my vehicle, I would be seeking a new spindle.

[Dzimm]

Yeah that's what I was afraid of.. It's got newer upper and brand new lower ball joints so I was hoping not to have to take it completely apart but I guess I probably should.