We're at the alignment shop

[coolwind57]

Last week, I replaced my Lower Control Arms (LCAs) with new ones for WJs.  No more tire rubbing from my 31s!  Cool.  I also upgraded my sway bar with a thicker one from an XJ and installed the taller F-350 rear sway bar end links.  This got my links away from my coil springs.  Check.  As I observed a few weeks ago, my track bar seemed off--my coil springs were slightly rubbing my track bar bracket and my old sway bar end links (which are now corrected). My truck is still noisy coming down my driveway in the early morning, but the suspension doesn't make any noise once warmed up, which is kinda weird.  I think my springs are still rubbing a bit.  PO apparently had done about a 2-1/2"  budget lift, btw.  

 

I have an ever-so-slight pull to the right on the highway still.  Anyhow, I also recently noticed that my front tires visually seem to be a bit toe-out so this morning I dropped her off at a reputable shop with an alignment rack.  Upon buying my truck last Month, I immediately noticed that the steering wheel alignment was not centered, so a good alignment was on the to-do-list from the get go anyway.

 

They just called me and told me that the caster was off a bit, which they felt was causing the slight right pull.  They said that they needed shims for the control arms and that no one in town has them and they must be ordered.  I have to go pick up my vehicle here in a bit and drop back off next Wednesday.  The estimate is $155.13.

 

Anyhow, I thought I'd run this past you guys to see if anything stands out worth mentioning.  I am not so knowledgeable on automotive front suspensions, but I'm learning primarily from you guys and by laying on my back and visually figuring out how it all ties together. 

 

Everything sound legit?  Am I on the right track, no pun intended?

[HOrnbrod]

You can fab the LCA shims pretty easily:

 

[Skorpyo]

For a 6 pack, this isn't a bad deal: https://www.amazon.com/Specialty-Products-Company-47241-Caster/dp/B000SIAMZC/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1506534719&vehicle=1999-42-347-141--9-8-8-3330-242-8-2-1766-14-8-0&sr=1-6&ymm=1999%3Ajeep%3Acherokee&keywords=control+arm+shim

 

Also, I used to just hit a local JY every now and then and most XJs there have a few in them. Easy enough to loosen 2 bolts and pull them out with a pry bar if needed.

 

GL!

[Minuit]

Hahaha, yeah $155 for a couple of shims is a total rip. At least they figured out that's how caster is adjusted on these...

[coolwind57]

2 minutes ago, Skorpyo said:

For a 6 pack, this isn't a bad deal: https://www.amazon.com/Specialty-Products-Company-47241-Caster/dp/B000SIAMZC/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1506534719&vehicle=1999-42-347-141--9-8-8-3330-242-8-2-1766-14-8-0&sr=1-6&ymm=1999%3Ajeep%3Acherokee&keywords=control+arm+shim

 

Also, I used to just hit a local JY every now and then and most XJs there have a few in them. Easy enough to loosen 2 bolts and pull them out with a pry bar if needed.

 

GL!

Surprised I had none in my MJ when I replaced the LCAs last week. Looks like the Amazon spacers are 1/16" thick.  

 

Man, I hope they can also correct that spring rubbing my track bar mount.  

[coolwind57]

7 minutes ago, Minuit said:

Hahaha, yeah $155 for a couple of shims is a total rip. At least they figured out that's how caster is adjusted on these...

I will confirm, but I think the $155 is not just for shims.  I am expecting all aspects of alignment to be corrected--toe, camber & castor using machinery that I don't have.  

[Minuit]

3 minutes ago, coolwind57 said:

I will confirm, but I think the $155 is not just for shims.  I am expecting all aspects of alignment to be corrected--toe, camber & castor using machinery that I don't have.  

Ok. You made it sound like the estimate for the shims was $155. If that's the whole alignment that's better.

[HOrnbrod]

30 minutes ago, coolwind57 said:

Surprised I had none in my MJ when I replaced the LCAs last week. Looks like the Amazon spacers are 1/16" thick.  

 

Man, I hope they can also correct that spring rubbing my track bar mount.  

 

If you have zero existing shims and a slight lift, 6 x 1/16" shims won't be enough for a ~5*-7* caster angle. I needed maybe twice that. You may have to make a couple of thicker shims or buy two packs.

 

You can insert the shims yourself and measure with an angle finder from the top of the upper ball joint flat to get the caster angle in the ballpark.

[Skorpyo]

On ebay for multiple sizes:

 

1/32nd: https://www.ebay.com/i/140476841722?chn=ps&dispItem=1

1/16th: https://www.ebay.com/i/310269876145?chn=ps&dispItem=1

1/8th: https://www.ebay.com/i/310269878519?chn=ps&dispItem=1

[coolwind57]

37 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

 

If you have zero existing shims and a slight lift, 6 x 1/16" shims won't be enough for a ~5*-7* caster angle. I needed maybe twice that. You may have to make a couple of thicker shims or buy two packs.

 

You can insert the shims yourself and measure with an angle finder from the top of the upper ball joint flat to get the caster angle in the ballpark.

 

HOrnbrod:  I read your last message after I had just returned from the shop.  i took note of what they come up with.

 

Here's the readings that we got this morning:

Camber  Left (-.4-deg), Right (-.2deg)  GREEN FLAG ON MACHINE-ACCEPTABLE

Caster  Left (5.5deg), Right (5.6deg)  RED FLAG ON MACHINE-NOT SO ACCEPTABLE

Toe  Left (.34deg), Right (.27-deg)  Total Toe =  .61deg  RED FLAG-NOT SO ACCEPTABLE

 

Specs show:

Camber should be 0-deg both sides

Caster should be 7.5-deg both sides

Total Toe should be 0-.00-deg

 

The alignment guy wants to correct that caster by getting the two sides the same reading--aka, adding a shim or two to get the left and right sides equal.  He said that one would not want to add so many shims to get back to the 7.5 factory angle due to "safety concerns".  He mentioned that one could probably safely add any remaining shims from the shim kit if need be, but adding too many additional shims to get to the 7.5-deg angle would be excessive and ill-advised.

 

HOrnbrod, I think your opinion obviously differs, huh? 

 

If I'm understanding all of what I had just read on the internet, then if I equal out my two sides yet still remain under the 7.5-deg caster spec, then I may lose only a bit of my directional stability (which may slightly increase wandering properties).   

 

[coolwind57]

10 minutes ago, Skorpyo said:

On ebay for multiple sizes:

 

1/32nd: https://www.ebay.com/i/140476841722?chn=ps&dispItem=1

1/16th: https://www.ebay.com/i/310269876145?chn=ps&dispItem=1

1/8th: https://www.ebay.com/i/310269878519?chn=ps&dispItem=1

 

Holy moley.  $10 to ship.  They must be really large and heavy 

[Skorpyo]

6 minutes ago, coolwind57 said:

 

Holy moley.  $10 to ship.  They must be really large and heavy 

They're really not, which is odd.. I'd recommend fabbing your own, or if the shop will do it for a price you're ok with get them to.

 

Easiest way to do make them, if you're going to do it on your own, is to follow the template above, drill holes at the top of the notch locations and then use a hacksaw or cutting wheel. I've read that people have used steel, aluminum and even plastic. I've also read about some people using washers on the two bolts but its easy enough to make these that I wouldn't recommend being that lazy lol.

[Skorpyo]

Oh, also recommend this article. Despite the fact that its an XJ it's spot on: http://gojeep.willyshotrod.com/HowtoAlignment.htm

[HOrnbrod]

Caster will vary depending if you are 4WD or not, and how much lift you have. The greater your caster angle is, the worse your front pinion angle becomes causing twitchy steering. I'm 2WD so no worries, and I set my caster right around 5*, both sides equal and I'm good. If I were 4WD with a 2.5"-3" lift, I'd do maybe 3* for caster for my lift.

 

Your L & R sides are close to equal for your caster which is a good thing. If not equal, the vehicle will pull to one side and probably eat the tires up. My shims came out to the same thickness on both sides for a 5* caster angle. Steering is tight and solid.

 

After your guys get it set up and it drives and steers well, verify the caster and toe with and angle finder and string measurements for toe. That way you can check periodically down the road if you change tires and or lift.

[Minuit]

I don't think your caster measurements are that bad for a lifted vehicle with stock length control arms. Not quite factory spec, but not horrible. You're also 4wd, so proper pinion angle trumps caster. Consulting the lift vs control arm length table in the diy index, you'll need to add roughly 1/4" of length to the lower arms to get proper caster angle with a 2.5" lift. I'm not sure if you'll be able to achieve that with your factory length WJ control arms. You'll want the caster measurements to be as close as possible for straight running. 

 

Caster will affect tracking stability and the "return to center" of the steering. How did it feel before? 

[coolwind57]

2 minutes ago, Minuit said:

I don't think your caster measurements are that bad for a lifted vehicle with stock length control arms. Not quite factory spec, but not horrible. The alignment guy has a good point - you're 4wd, so proper pinion angle trumps caster. Consulting the lift vs control arm length table in the diy index, you'll need to add roughly 1/4" of length to the lower arms to get proper caster angle with a 2.5" lift. I'm not sure if you'll be able to achieve that with your factory length WJ control arms. You'll want the caster measurements to be as close as possible for straight running. 

 

Caster will affect tracking stability and the "return to center" of the steering. How did it feel before? 

 

My wife hates driving my truck because she fights straight-line instability.  I really didn't notice it so much until I saw that she was struggling (she's a new driver, by the way).  Anyhow, I now acknowledge that my truck is a bit more of a challenge to stay straight than our SUV.   I'd hate to make things worse, so I suppose I need to find the sweet spot (improved higher caster angle without binding drive shaft) to tell my alignment shop.

[Eagle]

7 hours ago, coolwind57 said:

I will confirm, but I think the $155 is not just for shims.  I am expecting all aspects of alignment to be corrected--toe, camber & castor using machinery that I don't have.  

 

Camber is not adjustable, so all they're going to do is pop in a shim or three and check the toe-in. $155 seems high to me, but I haven't paid for an alignment in 30 years. You don't really need a machine to do the MJ, although it does make it easier.

[87Chief]

I had the same problem with my 87 chief, I got adjustable lower control arms and it helped out a lot. Better than buying new shim (you get new LCA's).

 

[coolwind57]

 

13 hours ago, Eagle said:

 

Camber is not adjustable, so all they're going to do is pop in a shim or three and check the toe-in. $155 seems high to me, but I haven't paid for an alignment in 30 years. You don't really need a machine to do the MJ, although it does make it easier.

 

For $155, I'm getting more than checking the toe...They're adjusting total toe from its current 61-degrees to within spec, while they're also addressing the poor caster. 

 

Two days ago I didn't even know what freakin' camber and caster was, let alone how to fix my drifting steering.   I also wanted the shop to look at my driver's coil spring, as it is still slightly rubbing my upper track bar mount. 

 

I've come a long way in learning about my front end these past couple of days, but I'm cool with dropping $155 still for having live alignment professionals looking over my new purchase, especially since this appears to be a budget lift from the PO.  They're also inspecting other components for signs that I as a newby, don't know to look for.  Yea, I suppose I'm also buying some piece of mind with that money.  But they've also been really cool in answering a barrage of questions and they're showing me stuff too, which is great.  

 

Thanks to the guys here, and especially HOrnbrod, I am attaining more knowledge and soon, also some basic tools, to make any future necessary adjustments once I get my truck back from the alignment shop.  And I'll likely never again pay someone else to have an alignment done.   

2 hours ago, 87Chief said:

I had the same problem with my 87 chief, I got adjustable lower control arms and it helped out a lot. Better than buying new shim (you get new LCA's).

 

 

Good point!  Seems like a good idea.  Had I to do it over, I would certainly look in to adjustable LCAs.       

[HOrnbrod]

Agree, it's $$ well spent at this point. Your shop seems to be staffed with fairly knowledgeable techs, which is unusual these days. Once they get it right; steering and driving the way you want, invest in an angle finder and other common tools and learn to do all the alignment checks in your driveway like toe, caster, steering wheel centering, axle centering, etc. Once you establish accurate baseline settings, there should be no need to ever go to an alignment shop again. Even if you change the lift, install larger tires, change the steering ratio with a quicker box, or anything else that could affect steering and alignment, you can reset back to your original baseline settings yourself.

 

THIS is a good site for DIY alignments. And there are several more online.

[Jeep Driver]

8 hours ago, coolwind57 said:

 

 

For $155, I'm getting more than checking the toe...They're adjusting total toe from its current 61-degrees to within spec, while they're also addressing the poor caster. 

 

Two days ago I didn't even know what freakin' camber and caster was, let alone how to fix my drifting steering.   I also wanted the shop to look at my driver's coil spring, as it is still slightly rubbing my upper track bar mount. 

 

I've come a long way in learning about my front end these past couple of days, but I'm cool with dropping $155 still for having live alignment professionals looking over my new purchase, especially since this appears to be a budget lift from the PO.  They're also inspecting other components for signs that I as a newby, don't know to look for.  Yea, I suppose I'm also buying some piece of mind with that money.  But they've also been really cool in answering a barrage of questions and they're showing me stuff too, which is great.  

 

Thanks to the guys here, and especially HOrnbrod, I am attaining more knowledge and soon, also some basic tools, to make any future necessary adjustments once I get my truck back from the alignment shop.  And I'll likely never again pay someone else to have an alignment done.   

 

Good point!  Seems like a good idea.  Had I to do it over, I would certainly look in to adjustable LCAs.       

Adjustable uppers. 

 

 

My lowers are zeroed out, no shims. Adjustable uppers and lowers. 

 

 

Did you change out your uppers?

[coolwind57]

I just swapped out my LCAs, not uppers.  My 31s were rubbing the MJ LCAs, but do great with these new WJ LCAs.  

 

I swapped them primarily for the rubbing, and was hoping to get some steering improvement to boot.

[Jeep Driver]

Guess what I'm getting at is this-

 

 

Uppers, axle bushings, how worn are they?

 

Why would you adjust anything to old and worn?

[HOrnbrod]

Adjustable upper and lower control arms for a mostly street MJ with under 3" of lift is a waste of money IMO. The factory WJ lowers (and uppers) are bushed a whole better than most of the adjustables, provide better handling, and make it a whole lot easier to set caster. What I noticed most when I swapped in the WJ LCAs was the handling improvement. I credit that to their enclosed boxed design that provides increased rigidity and the use of larger bushings.

 

At the same time I did the WJ LCA swap I also replaced the UCAs and axle bushings with stock XJ new parts. But I think the factory WJ uppers would also be a good upgrade over the non-boxed open design of the stock MJ/XJ UCAs for the same reasons as the LCAs. For those that have swapped in the WJ UCAs and bushings - is it worthwhile?

[HOrnbrod]

Answered my own question with a little searching: 

 

https://comancheclub.com/forums/topic/19295-wj-upper-control-arms-installed/

 

I'd forgotten this one. Appears to be a worthwhile mod.....