DarkCharisma Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Hi guys! A little background, I bought this Jeep from my grandma over Christmas as a favor to her; it was my late grandpa's which he had bought original. It's a 4.0, 2wd, short bed, with somewhere in the neighborhood of 130k miles... we're not entirely sure since the odometer stopped working. So far I've done a ZJ booster and master, refreshed the PND switch, done chores like u-joints, injectors, some wiring cleanup, new batteries, and started converting it to 4x4 with parts harvested off of an '01 XJ; I'm currently going through a refresh of the D30 and hope to have that under the truck this Friday. I'm not really into off-roading/wheeling, so I am confident the D30 will be plenty for my needs. All in all it's coming together pretty well, but there's a few things I am hoping to get some direction on. Seats -- The original seats are in decent condition but lack lumbar, lateral, and thigh support (really any kind of support). I looked at the brackets and found that they're .... unique looking. I can't recall any seats that have anything similar to that, and the XJ seats I had didn't look like they were a direct bolt-in either. Am I pretty much resigned to adapting whatever seats I want to some fabricated seat rails? Shackles -- I do not want to do a SOA, mostly because I want to do a Ford 8.8 at some point anyway. It looks like I can do some Chevy drop shackles, like these ones: http://www.roughcountry.com/lowering-shackles-rc0501.html Would those fit the bill, or do I need to source some for a specific year? Polyurethane -- I've got a dude who's recommending I do NOT use poly anywhere in the Jeep, for risk of tearing mount points; he suggests that doing poly in my CA bushings or anywhere else will cause them to tear off. I'm looking for good road manners, so poly made sense to me, but if the mount points are too weak and need rubber to live, then I guess so be it. Control arms -- The same guy I am talking to says that changing out CA's is pointless if I don't go with Curries. Is there any benefit to running something like the Rough Country (or similar) arms? The factory CA's look pretty frail, and look like they'd twist and deflect pretty easily under load. NP242 vs. NP231 -- I like the idea of an NP242 for the pseudo-AWD/full-time option, but I've read that it's not very good, however most everyone talking about the NP242 not being very good are speaking in context of wheeling, which I don't do. If I wanted a solid 4-seasons driver, would the NP242 be a better option, or am I going to be just as well suited with the NP231? Note: I have the NP231 already, but I can source a 242 pretty easy; there's lots of Jeeps in JYards in Utah ;) Picking it up, and how it sits now, and my never-done-always-a-project fun car: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Seats -- The original seats are in decent condition but lack lumbar, lateral, and thigh support (really any kind of support). I looked at the brackets and found that they're .... unique looking. I can't recall any seats that have anything similar to that, and the XJ seats I had didn't look like they were a direct bolt-in either. Am I pretty much resigned to adapting whatever seats I want to some fabricated seat rails? When Chrysler/Jeep updated the Cherokee body styling, they also changed the seat design. Seats from Cherokees from 1984 through 1996 should work. One caution: For a few years in the late 80s some models of the Cherokee came with what we call a "rocking chair" slider. That is, in addition to the adjustable rake of the seat back, there was another lever that allowed the seat bottom to move forward and back on a curved track, changing the angle. Those seats are too thick. You can mount them to the MJ pedestals, but they'll have you sitting too high. Shackles -- I do not want to do a SOA, mostly because I want to do a Ford 8.8 at some point anyway. It looks like I can do some Chevy drop shackles, like these ones: http://www.roughcountry.com/lowering-shackles-rc0501.html Would those fit the bill, or do I need to source some for a specific year? Why would you change the shackles? At 130,000 miles they're not likely to be rusted badly enough to be unsafe. Polyurethane -- I've got a dude who's recommending I do NOT use poly anywhere in the Jeep, for risk of tearing mount points; he suggests that doing poly in my CA bushings or anywhere else will cause them to tear off. I'm looking for good road manners, so poly made sense to me, but if the mount points are too weak and need rubber to live, then I guess so be it. Polyurethane bushing don't produce good road manners, they produce a harsh, noisy ride. They are for road racing competition, when you want ultimate precision in the way the suspension reacts. I doubt you would tear off any mounts in street driving with urethane bushings, but I think rubber will be a lot more comfortable. Again, at 130,000 miles I doubt you need new bushings. My original '88 Cherokee has 287,000 miles on it, it has been wheeled from Newe Mexico to paragon in Pennsylvania to Maine and New Hampshire. My control arms and all bushings are the originals. Control arms -- The same guy I am talking to says that changing out CA's is pointless if I don't go with Curries. Is there any benefit to running something like the Rough Country (or similar) arms? The factory CA's look pretty frail, and look like they'd twist and deflect pretty easily under load. Find someone who knows something about XJs and MJs. The guy you are talking to obviously doesn't. NP242 vs. NP231 -- I like the idea of an NP242 for the pseudo-AWD/full-time option, but I've read that it's not very good, however most everyone talking about the NP242 not being very good are speaking in context of wheeling, which I don't do. If I wanted a solid 4-seasons driver, would the NP242 be a better option, or am I going to be just as well suited with the NP231? Note: I have the NP231 already, but I can source a 242 pretty easy; there's lots of Jeeps in JYards in Utah ;) There is nothing "pseudo" about the AWD function of the 242. It's full-time 4WD, and it works very well. My wife's XJ has it, and if it had been offer3ed with the 5-speed manual transmissions I would have it in everything. On paper, the 242 has a slightly lower torque rating than the 231. In reality, many of the people I used to wheel with at Paragon were running 242s and I never saw one give any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 96 XJs share the 97+ seat design :thumbsup: how much lift are you looking to run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyt120 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 You should also be able to fit some Grand Cherokee seats on the MJ rails, won't tilt but much better support I like your truck :thumbsup: More pics please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megadan Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 how much lift are you looking to run? This. You have a few SUA options for a lift, but which option depends on the amt of lift you desire. chevy shackles will get you, at most, 2 inches of lift. Other options include Hell Creek springs, or General Springs Military wrap MT springs. I would advise against add-a-leaf kits personally, but it is another option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCharisma Posted May 27, 2015 Author Share Posted May 27, 2015 how much lift are you looking to run?This. You have a few SUA options for a lift, but which option depends on the amt of lift you desire. chevy shackles will get you, at most, 2 inches of lift. Other options include Hell Creek springs, or General Springs Military wrap MT springs. I would advise against add-a-leaf kits personally, but it is another option. I'm not a fan of AAL's either, I'll avoid those and look seriously at what my SOA options are when I end up doing a Ford 8.8. Thanks! When Chrysler/Jeep updated the Cherokee body styling, they also changed the seat design. Seats from Cherokees from 1984 through 1996 should work. One caution: For a few years in the late 80s some models of the Cherokee came with what we call a "rocking chair" slider. That is, in addition to the adjustable rake of the seat back, there was another lever that allowed the seat bottom to move forward and back on a curved track, changing the angle. Those seats are too thick. You can mount them to the MJ pedestals, but they'll have you sitting too high. Awesome, that's exactly the kind of stuff I need to know! Why would you change the shackles? At 130,000 miles they're not likely to be rusted badly enough to be unsafe. From what I've gleaned you can use the Chevy lowering shackles to gain an inch or two of lift in the rear. I'm just looking to run something in the 29-30" range, would that be enough to clear it? Polyurethane bushing don't produce good road manners, they produce a harsh, noisy ride. They are for road racing competition, when you want ultimate precision in the way the suspension reacts. I doubt you would tear off any mounts in street driving with urethane bushings, but I think rubber will be a lot more comfortable. Again, at 130,000 miles I doubt you need new bushings. My original '88 Cherokee has 287,000 miles on it, it has been wheeled from Newe Mexico to paragon in Pennsylvania to Maine and New Hampshire. My control arms and all bushings are the originals. I've had poly in my Cadillac for a few years now and love it, but the Comanche is a different beast. I just want predictable, stable on-road handling. If that can be had without poly, I won't waste the money. Find someone who knows something about XJs and MJs. The guy you are talking to obviously doesn't. :lol: I'm starting to get that vibe, the guy is a big TJ fan and is following my restoration/build thread really close on another board, I'll take his advice with a grain of salt. There is nothing "pseudo" about the AWD function of the 242. It's full-time 4WD, and it works very well. My wife's XJ has it, and if it had been offer3ed with the 5-speed manual transmissions I would have it in everything. On paper, the 242 has a slightly lower torque rating than the 231. In reality, many of the people I used to wheel with at Paragon were running 242s and I never saw one give any problems. Sounds like I need a 242 then. You should also be able to fit some Grand Cherokee seats on the MJ rails, won't tilt but much better support I like your truck :thumbsup: More pics please! Thanks! It's really different than what I normally have but it's been fun so far. I'll get some more pics as soon as it's done raining... 96 XJs share the 97+ seat design :thumbsup: how much lift are you looking to run? Just enough to clear a 29-30" for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megadan Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 You don't need a lift for 30" tires. In fact, 31's clear with no lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 as he said, 30" tires will fit already. but if you want a bit of height, you can do a simple budget lift with 1.75" or 2" lift pucks up front and the chevy drop shackles in the rear. this will retain the stock brake lines, stock shocks, stock swaybar links, stock suspension parts and stock steering linkages. For a mild lift I'd get some WJ (99-04 grand cherokee) factory lower control arms. they are the same length as MJ, but fully boxed and have a much better bushing design. you can get brand new ones or from a junkyard (I paid $25 for mine). you just need to trim the steel bushing to the MJ width. :thumbsup: plus they have a cool tire-clearancing bend in them. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 96 XJs share the 97+ seat design :thumbsup: how much lift are you looking to run? Just enough to clear a 29-30" for now. You don't need ANY lift to run 30s. Many people run 31s on factory rims with no lift. You certainly don't need to go SOA (which will be a MINIMUM of a 5-1/2" lift) to run 30s. They'll look stupid under that much lift -- and since you seem to be interested in handling, remember that lifting the vehicle lifts the center of gravity and the roll center, which does not translate into improved handling. My apologies on the seat info. make that 1984 through 1994, not '96. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minuit Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 My stock height '91 2wd (essentially the same ride height as yours) clears 235/75/15 tires (28.9") with plenty of room to spare. The only modification you'll need to run 30s or 31s is to swap in WJ lower control arms. I would strongly suggest going with new ones if you go this route. The bushing sleeves will need to be trimmed down but it's not difficult. My stock, 154,000 mile LCA bushings were so far gone that I had basically no caster in the suspension - it was not fun to drive on the highway. The WJ control arms also have a redesigned bushing that improves ride quality and handling, so it's a 100% upgrade from stock. They are exactly the same length as the stock control arms, so if you're wanting to lift more than about 2" you'll be better off with something longer. If you're a fan of improved road handling, also try to find a 28mm front sway bar from a Cherokee or '93-'98 Grand Cherokee. The MJ is no Miata but after putting the 28mm front sway bar on it feels like a different truck in the corners. With a little work a rear sway bar from a Blazer can be made to fit. I haven't done that myself but apparently it makes a huge difference. Never heard of poly bushings destroying mount points but I really wouldn't recommend poly bushings for anything but the front sway bar unless you're building a racing truck. You've probably noticed that your 4.0 leaks a TON of oil. Inspect things in this order: valve cover gasket, oil pressure sending unit, oil filter adapter o-rings, distributor mounting gasket, front main seal/timing cover, rear main seal. This link is the BEST source for help with your engine and electrical system in general. It would be to your benefit to read the entire thing. As said earlier, there's no reason not to go with the NP242 if you can find one. The Autozone special Chevy shackles will get about 2" of lift in the rear. You won't need it for 30s. I like that Caddy a lot :brows: Make a build thread in the "your MJ projects" section so we can follow your adventure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCharisma Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 You guys don't mess around with the answers, thanks a lot! My stock height '91 2wd (essentially the same ride height as yours) clears 235/75/15 tires (28.9") with plenty of room to spare. The only modification you'll need to run 30s or 31s is to swap in WJ lower control arms. I would strongly suggest going with new ones if you go this route. The bushing sleeves will need to be trimmed down but it's not difficult. My stock, 154,000 mile LCA bushings were so far gone that I had basically no caster in the suspension - it was not fun to drive on the highway. The WJ control arms also have a redesigned bushing that improves ride quality and handling, so it's a 100% upgrade from stock. They are exactly the same length as the stock control arms, so if you're wanting to lift more than about 2" you'll be better off with something longer. If you're a fan of improved road handling, also try to find a 28mm front sway bar from a Cherokee or '93-'98 Grand Cherokee. The MJ is no Miata but after putting the 28mm front sway bar on it feels like a different truck in the corners. With a little work a rear sway bar from a Blazer can be made to fit. I haven't done that myself but apparently it makes a huge difference. Never heard of poly bushings destroying mount points but I really wouldn't recommend poly bushings for anything but the front sway bar unless you're building a racing truck. You've probably noticed that your 4.0 leaks a TON of oil. Inspect things in this order: valve cover gasket, oil pressure sending unit, oil filter adapter o-rings, distributor mounting gasket, front main seal/timing cover, rear main seal. This link is the BEST source for help with your engine and electrical system in general. It would be to your benefit to read the entire thing. As said earlier, there's no reason not to go with the NP242 if you can find one. The Autozone special Chevy shackles will get about 2" of lift in the rear. You won't need it for 30s. I like that Caddy a lot :brows: Make a build thread in the "your MJ projects" section so we can follow your adventure! The Cadi is my mistress. :lol: I'll be sure to clone the build thread I have running on another board here so you guys can see (or laugh) at all I've done with it so far... Good idea on the swaybar; I'm not looking for a corner carver, I'm just willing to sacrifice off-road capability for predictable road manners, since I kind of want to daily drive this once the bugs are worked out--and if I am being totally honest, the idea of banging up grandpa's Jeep on trails makes me feel a little ill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Good idea on the swaybar; I'm not looking for a corner carver, I'm just willing to sacrifice off-road capability for predictable road manners, since I kind of want to daily drive this once the bugs are worked out--and if I am being totally honest, the idea of banging up grandpa's Jeep on trails makes me feel a little ill... So why not forget the idea of lifting and "building" it and keep it mostly the way your grandfather had it? There is nothing about lifting a truck that in any way helps in the "road manners" department. Basically, you seem to be going in two directions at once, meaning you are working against yourself. That's going to cost you more money, and the results will never be satisfactory. My red '88 MJ had a 4" lift when I bought it. I ran it with 31" tires. It was better than decent on the trail, the ride was horrible, and on-street handling was "meh." Plus, at 4" of lift, it wasn't high enough to really need steps or running boards (and they would have been rock magnets anyway) yet it was too high for me to get in and out without mashing down the outboard corner of the driver'[s seat. I finally took the lift out, and it was the best thing I could have done. Off road I can still go almost everywhere I could before, the ride and handling are both greatly improved, and I'm no longer destroying the sea every time I get in or out. And then there's the grandfather thing. Not everyone regards such matters the same way, of course, but I'll share my attitude toward about the only thing I have from my grandfather. I inherited his Winchester model 1903 .22 caliber carbine. It's not in perfect condition, but it's in very good condition. It takes a proprietary cartridge that had been unavailable for several decades. An ammo company recently made a run of that ammo and I bought some, so now I can shoot it. I found that my eyes aren't what they were when my grandfather was alive, so it would help a lot to install a scope. But ... it not drilled and tapped for scope bases and the receiver isn't grooved for scopes. I could have it drilled and tapped -- but I won't. I want it to be the rifle my grandfather had and used and enjoyed. If I add a scope, it won't be his rifle, and the holes can never be undrilled. Since you don't plan to wheel the truck, why do a bunch of things to it that all have negative effects on the aspects you seem to feel are important to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCharisma Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 I hear ya about the sentimental value of things, and have considered everything you've mentioned. Part of the problem is I can't maintain a fleet of cars unless all those cars are fulfilling a purpose. I've got this Comanche, a CTS-V, and a 2500HD Silverado, and my wife has a Scion, we're already slimming down the fleet at least a little bit. Doing things that make this a safe, reliable daily that I can bring out camping or run back and forth to Home Depot in is exactly what I want it for, and makes it really easy to keep. I don't need a lot of lift (or any, as some folks have mentioned) then I won't lift it; I've had my fair share of lifted fullsizes and I love'em, but I really just want to stuff some aggressive AT's underneath it and fill out the wheel wells appropriately enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minuit Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 It'll look plenty filled out with 235/75/15s, 30s or 31s. All of which you can run at stock height and keep your road manners. :thumbsup: Here's mine. Same suspension setup as yours, with a small lift in the rear due to load-helper shocks. That's 235/75/15 tires, and you can go two sizes bigger without needing a lift if you really want to fill it out. My grandmother bought mine new in '91 and I definitely understand the way you feel about banging it up on a trail. Just thinking about doing that to mine makes me cringe. I say keep it stock but put some nice, meaty tires on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megadan Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 You can always do a small bit of lift without hurting your road manners too much. With my new leaf springs from General springs and some Moog CC782 (Upcountry replacement) coils with 1" spacers up front, my truck has about 2" of lift up front and sits nearly level. I may do a set of lift shackles, but at this point I am happy with it. I am looking to build my own skid plates this summer if time and funds permit. I would rather spend my money on protection and better diffs (lockers or limited slips) than making the truck sit higher. The former has a greater effect on off road ability than the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyluvv Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 My take on it. Lift it. My truck rides great and handles just as I expect it to. Do the lift right and it will ride great. I have a 4.5" lift and 265/75R16 tires. I had to do minor trimming to the flares and bumper caps to take advantage of the full flex available. Trimming can be cut back slightly by using more bump stopping. My lift consists of FRONT 4.5" Rubicon Express coils, Rough Country drop brackets, stock control arms, JKS adjustable track bar, WJ Front sway bar links, Honda Accord rear lower control arms modified to hold the WJ sway bar links, 28MM ZJ sway bar, V8 ZJ steering linkages, extended brake lines, cheap shocks (those are getting replaced with Bilstien 5100s), 4 hockey pucks per side used as bump stops REAR 4.5" Hell Creek standard load leaf packs, Extended brake line, cheap shocks (those are getting replaced with Bilstien 5100s), 2x4" tubing used for rear bump stop extensions I have about $500 in my lift. Everything but the rear leaves and shocks were bought used or found in a junk yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCharisma Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Can I stuff a 10.5" wide tire on the OE Comanche wheels? Or should I expect to go a little narrower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megadan Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Can I stuff a 10.5" wide tire on the OE Comanche wheels? Or should I expect to go a little narrower? You would want at least a 7" wide wheel if you were looking at a 31 x 10.5 tire. 8" would be a little more ideal, but there is definitely no issue with using a 7" wide wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCharisma Posted May 28, 2015 Author Share Posted May 28, 2015 Damn, factory wheels are 15x6 it looks like. Looks like I'll have to go narrower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minuit Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Stock 15x7 wheels are pretty easy to come by unless you want to keep the rally wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 ... I really just want to stuff some aggressive AT's underneath it and fill out the wheel wells appropriately enough. The higher you lift it, the bigger tires you need to fill the wheel wells "appropriately." You can run 31s with no lift. You said you want to run 30s. Sounds like a plan to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCharisma Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Back from the dead ... I got an assignment across the country so I was away from the Jeep all summer; I'm back now, and got some stuff done! Ended up going with some 235/75R15 on my OE wheels; as much as I would have liked to get some different wheels, I like the idea of cheap tires a lot more... Cooper AT3s' from Discount Tire Direct, with $170 off that makes a set of 4 cost $386! Tires, steering, and brakes are on; axle housing and attached components were flap-wheeled and painted. Th broomstick served as my helping hand when I used the steering box to re-center the axle and hold the position while I connected the last control arm. Couple of questions for the guys who might have addressed this before. 1) With the new steering stuff on, I am having a b*@$£ of a time getting both wheels to point straight, while still being able to connect it to the gearbox. My adjusting collar on the pitman link is out of travel ... Is there something I am missing here? 2) Reviving the heater discussion; I traced the vacuum line that goes under the battery on the passenger side of the firewall, and all that looks OK; are there any other common heater issues on these year of Jeep that I could look into? Otherwise I might wholesale replace the damned system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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