To lock or not to lock?

[aaronbtxnc]

And if so with what? Kinda new to all this, in the past have counted on the wife's Subaru in the snow, will now be depending on the MJ. I live in a very hilly area and deliver pizzas so will be going everywhere. Set up right now is 4.0, manual tranny, D35 front and rear, 3.07 gearing, planning on an axle swap to 3.55 from the parts truck, probably do this mod before/during swap. Do you guys think I will need lockers? Front and back or just front or just back? I'd assume to maintain steering I'd want something like this up front but would love to get by with something a little less pricey...

 

Auburn Gear ECTED positraction and Locker for Dana 30 with 27 spline axles, 3.54 and down

The Auburn ECTED is an electrically-operated posi/locker combination. When the unit is disengaged, it is a cone/clutch operated limited slip. with the push of a button the unit engages for full lockup to provide full power to both tires. This unit comes with all associated parts and hardware for operation. Auburn offers a one year warranty against manufacturing defects on these units. All Auburn Gear positractions come with a bottle of friction modifier.

 

When the truck's not in 4wd if I went with something like this instead...

Spartan Locker for Dana 30 differential with 27 spline axles, includes heavy-duty cross pin shaft

The Spartan Locker, by USA Standard Gear, provides reliable traction at a low cost. Give your vehicle great traction and save some cash. Choose a Spartan Locker for better traction. The Spartan locker by USA standard gear is a mechanical locker that replaces the spiders in a standard case. The Spartan locker's design does not use the thrust washers and has a revolutionary spring and pin design that makes installation a snap! The couplers and drivers are made from 9310 steel, for added strength. Each Spartan locker carries a one year warranty against defect. Does not fit Std. JK Carrier. Use YC D706008

 

would the front wheels still be locked? That's something I don't think I'd want if so.

Could I get by with something like this in the back though...

 

Spartan Locker for Model 35 with 27 spline axles and a 1.560" carrier, includes heavy-duty cross pin

The Spartan Locker, by USA Standard Gear, provides reliable traction at a low cost. Give your vehicle great traction and save some cash. Choose a Spartan Locker for better traction. The Spartan locker by USA standard gear is a mechanical locker that replaces the spiders in a standard case. The Spartan locker's design does not use the thrust washers and has a revolutionary spring and pin design that makes installation a snap! The couplers and drivers are made from 9310 steel, for added strength. Each Spartan locker carries a one year warranty against defect.

 

And are these something I can install myself (with your guys' help of course ;) )

 

This will be an on down the road kinda project (probably fall), but last night my wife was hounding me about how much more I'm going to put into this truck so I'd like to manage her expectations in a realistic sort of way.

[MiNi Beast]

lunch box lockers front and rear, around a reasonable $500 for lockers, setting up gears is another $500 labor cost and another $150-$200 for full diff install kits.better tell the wife now that you own a jeep...Just Empty Every Pocket, and you better move your a$$ for bigger tips. :rotfl2:

[skidoo_j]

this is a decision I think we all face.

 

One thing I will point out before i get into my opinions, In your front axle it is not recommended to have an auto-locker, unless you have a way to disengage it for street driving. IE you have the CAD or locking hubs. If you have the straight passenger side axle you end up with some odd steering characteristics and all manufactures advise against in unless off road only.

 

 

Randy's ring and pinion recommended me the etched in the rear so you have a limited slip when not engaged and therefor will not get tire scrub and still have improved traction vs open, and gives you one more option once you get stuck. and either a straight elocker or ox locker up front. They are advocates of using minimal traction to get places until you need more ie 2x4 is what you drive the trail in and engage 4x4 when stuck, then lockers if still stuck.

 

 

 

I personally went with lunchbox lockers because I didnt want to fork out the huge differences in money and did it to kind of get the feel. And was/am debating on gear changes. If you leap for non-lunchbox lockers you have carrier breaks that limit the gears you can install. With a D30 and D44 they're at different points so if you wanted to run at 3.55 and later decided you wanted 4.10 you'd have to get a new locker whereas if you have a lunch box they just replace the spiders in both carrier breaks. Because of those reasons I put a powertrax no slip up front and a lockrite in the rear.

I kept the CAD but converted it to a posi-lock cable. In dirt / mud it's like a tank. point and go. Just the rear locker alone made dramatic improvements, however i feel that because of the light truck on the lockrite i do have tire scrub as i find it doesn't disengage when i corner at all under even light power and only when in very tight corners when not under power does it disconnect (parking lot).

The front no-slip is to behave like a limited-slip-locker... it is supposed to be a more gradual lock and have better traction. According to their site it allows me to corner at slow speeds with out having to disengage the 4x4.

 

if the vehicle is going to be used in snowy/icy areas regularly lockers front and rear will also change your driving and handling because of the crown in the road if you do get in a slick area the truck will have a tendency to go sideways. When in 2 wheel drive w/o sand in the back i just spun both wheels locked and i start doing a circle. put it in 4 wheel drive and i get moving, but then you can't turn for $#!& because the front locks up too and you just go. When i got in a patch of ice I had all four wheels spinning and i went sideways and found that by disengaging the posi loc i actually had 3x4 and i was able to baby the throttle and manage to drive out of it. Again no chains or weight in the bed. This was on a road with new snow fall and ice. In my area we don't salt roads and only main roads get gravel added. So if it starts to melt during the day and refreezes at night it's a skate park.

 

I debate all the time to remove the front no-slip and either put back in the spider gears or pick up a select locker as i miss 2 lo and don't care for what feels like a left pull in my steering because its turning all the mass (carrier, drive line) vs the passenger side just turning a short axle.

In my mind the best scenario for me would be a select locker up front and keeping the posi at the cad or converting to free hubs. This way I could have 2hi, 2lo, 4hi+lo open, 4hi+lo locked. up front. But i do a majority of my driving on the street and launching a boat, so I think id benefit having more options for the ohSh#t senarios.

 

again these are my experiences and opinions.

[aaronbtxnc]

So lunch box lockers are like the Spartan ones?

 

If I put one of those up front, when in 2wd are they still locked?

 

Will back tires scrub around corners with that type? I'd guess they would as the outside ones still have to travel farther. I don't want to eat up my tires 35? days a year for the 1? days I may be driving in the snow, if that many.

 

I'm also looking into option of the explorer 8.8 with better brakes and LSD. Do these come in 3.55 gearing? I see one from a F150, would that work or only Explorer?

 

So I'm kinda leaning towards LSD (put into the 35 or swap axles) rear and locker up front as long as the locker's like it's not there when in 2wd.

[skidoo_j]

So lunch box lockers are like the Spartan ones?

 

If I put one of those up front, when in 2wd are they still locked?

 

Will back tires scrub around corners with that type? I'd guess they would as the outside ones still have to travel farther. I don't want to eat up my tires 35? days a year for the 1? days I may be driving in the snow, if that many.

 

I'm also looking into option of the explorer 8.8 with better brakes and LSD. Do these come in 3.55 gearing? I see one from a F150, would that work or only Explorer?

 

So I'm kinda leaning towards LSD (put into the 35 or swap axles) rear and locker up front as long as the locker's like it's not there when in 2wd.

 

 

a lunch box locker is a locker that replaces the spider gears in a carrier. spartan, lockrite, no-slip, etc.

 

the locker in the front "could" lock when turning in the front that is why the manufactures advise against it in the front of a vehicle w/o free hubs or cad. In theory as long as the drive shaft spins freely they shouldn't lock.

 

the tire wear isn't bad as the truck is light, but i have about 5k on some good year duratrac tires and i've rotated them twice. the rears seem to be what's wearing down my tires. The edges of the tires get worn, the tire wear looks like they're cupping, but they're not

[skidoo_j]

Richmond gears disclaimer on their powertrax noslip and lock rites

 

NOTICE REGARDING FRONT AXLE APPLICATIONS:

The Powertrax No-Slip Traction System works well on the front axle of 4-wheel drive vehicles provided a couple

of important guidelines are followed. The Powertrax No-Slip Traction System should be used only on vehicles

equipped with locking hubs on the front axle or with front axle disconnect. In addition, the vehicle must not be

equipped with full time 4-wheel drive. Vehicles equipped with a Powertrax No-Slip Traction System on the front

axle should not be operated on the highway with the front hubs locked and 4-wheel drive engaged. Following

these guidelines will ensure very on-road driveability while still providing maximum off-road traction.

 

 

 

Most full time transfer cases have a limited slip mechanism of some sort built in.

[aaronbtxnc]

the locker in the front "could" lock when turning in the front that is why the manufactures advise against it in the front of a vehicle w/o free hubs or cad. In theory as long as the drive shaft spins freely they shouldn't lock.

 

MJs have CAD, right? :oops:

[skidoo_j]

the locker in the front "could" lock when turning in the front that is why the manufactures advise against it in the front of a vehicle w/o free hubs or cad. In theory as long as the drive shaft spins freely they shouldn't lock.

 

MJs have CAD, right? :oops:

 

 

 

86-91 if original front axle or hasn't been welded or swapped for a straight axle sould have CAD. A very common thing for people to do is to replace the two piece passenger axle setup with the later model single piece axle, or simply swap the axle out too. the single axle design is stronger then the two piece style. In addition the vacuum system is not reliable after 20 years as most people never maintained the system, sometimes the actuator is stuck in the locked position or doesn't work at all. The vacuum actuator is on the passenger side of the axle. I removed this and replaced with a posi lock control

 

another common modification is for people to pull the cad housing and move the clips inside to lock the fork so it holds the collar over the axle.

 

 

fast test jack up the front end with motor off spin drivers wheel if passenger front spins the cad is not working or has been altered...

 

if drivers spinns and passenger doesn't cad is still there...

to test function with front still jacked up start truck put in 4x4 leave in neutral when spinning drivers wheel right side should spin opposite

 

 

here's a post regarding the vacuum line routing for trouble shooting if you get that far or find it's not functioning viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35623

[SW86]

ive never had an issue with my front spartan locking up when I'm in 2wd....ever. if there is no power applied (2wd) it will not lock.

 

as for the CAD. remove it, get a single piece shaft and new inner seal. replace when you install the locker.

[skidoo_j]

ive never had an issue with my front spartan locking up when I'm in 2wd....ever. if there is no power applied (2wd) it will not lock.

 

as for the CAD. remove it, get a single piece shaft and new inner seal. replace when you install the locker.

 

 

You may have never had an issue, but I look at it this way, the manufacture advises against it for legalities because they are uncertain if it could possibly lock in 2 wheel drive. After you installed the spartan and you did the lock test how firm did you need to hold your front drive shaft to lock the wheels?

 

Regardless with you running the spartan up front with a straight axle do you hear the ratchet of the spartan at every corner? How long have you ran it this way? Do you check the teeth often?

[ComancheKid45]

I havent had any issues with mine after close 2 years, and over a year on 1 peice shafts ;)

[Eagle]

And if so with what? Kinda new to all this, in the past have counted on the wife's Subaru in the snow, will now be depending on the MJ. I live in a very hilly area and deliver pizzas so will be going everywhere. Set up right now is 4.0, manual tranny, D35 front and rear, 3.07 gearing, planning on an axle swap to 3.55 from the parts truck, probably do this mod before/during swap. Do you guys think I will need lockers? Front and back or just front or just back? I'd assume to maintain steering I'd want something like this up front but would love to get by with something a little less pricey...

I'm in New England. Until last winter, we had snow in the winter. The MJ I drove regularly as a street/trail truck is equipped with a TrueTrac limited slip in the rear and an open diff in the front. I almost never had to use 4WD, even when the hill leading to my house hadn't been plowed. But, the MJ is a lot lighter over the rear axle than an XJ and it doesn't do quite as well in snow as the XJ because of that.

 

Keep in mind that the D35 is a weak axle. You have two, conflicting issues to face: The least expensive traction device you can get for a D35 is a "lunchbox" locker, but it's not a good idea to put a locker in a D35. If I were in your situation, I would put in a Trac-Lok (which is what the factory used for a limited slip).

 

There are those who advocate locking the front axle before doing anything to the rear axle. There is some logic to that, but I don't agree with it for a vehicle used primarily on the street. A locker doesn't provide any locking if it isn't powered, which means you would have to use 4WD to get any improvement in traction even in mildly slippery conditions. A limited slip in the rear, on the other hand, is there all the time and it's always working.

[Eagle]

Most full time transfer cases have a limited slip mechanism of some sort built in.

I don't know about "most" full-time transfer cases, but the Jeep 242 full-time transfer case does NOT have any limited slip mechanism in it. And the 242 wasn't available in the MJ anyway -- anybody who has one installed it him/herself.

[skidoo_j]

Most full time transfer cases have a limited slip mechanism of some sort built in.

I don't know about "most" full-time transfer cases, but the Jeep 242 full-time transfer case does NOT have any limited slip mechanism in it. And the 242 wasn't available in the MJ anyway -- anybody who has one installed it him/herself.

 

 

My apologies i should have said slip bias systems...

 

the 247 has a limited slip like system.

 

the 242 when in 4x4 full time has A planetary differential between the front and rear axles to

turn at different speeds as when cornering while dividing torque equally between them.

[SW86]

ive never had an issue with my front spartan locking up when I'm in 2wd....ever. if there is no power applied (2wd) it will not lock.

 

as for the CAD. remove it, get a single piece shaft and new inner seal. replace when you install the locker.

 

 

You may have never had an issue, but I look at it this way, the manufacture advises against it for legalities because they are uncertain if it could possibly lock in 2 wheel drive. After you installed the spartan and you did the lock test how firm did you need to hold your front drive shaft to lock the wheels?

 

Regardless with you running the spartan up front with a straight axle do you hear the ratchet of the spartan at every corner? How long have you ran it this way? Do you check the teeth often?

 

 

i did the unlock test as per the instructions. spun it to lock (jacked up the whole axle, spinning one wheel acting like power was applied till locked) then spun one tire the opposite direction to make sure it unlocked. it did everytime. i hear no clicking. don't even really think it did much after i put it in. however when i did the test after first installed, i heard clicking but per instructions again, you should hear the clicking to ensure its working correctly. once ran awhile, it will quiet down as the teeth get "settled in". which they said would do once used.

ive helped install several spartans and aussies and everybody gets some clicking when first installed. after they run it, it quiets down because again, the teeth kind of groove themselves into the locker pattern so to speak. some say the aussies really click but some say they don't. so i don't know on that note...

 

now ive heard if you installed it wrong, without the proper spacing it could catch like your saying when turning because it can't space to properly stay unlocked. maybe as the springs wear it could be an issue but out of the box it should space its self correctly IMO. after all its how they designed it but stranger things have happened...

 

i check the teeth everytime the cover is pulled, along with ring gear teeth. its been awhile with it installed. decent street time and heavy offroad use. no issues with sharp turns or even regluar turns.

[skidoo_j]

ive never had an issue with my front spartan locking up when I'm in 2wd....ever. if there is no power applied (2wd) it will not lock.

 

as for the CAD. remove it, get a single piece shaft and new inner seal. replace when you install the locker.

 

 

You may have never had an issue, but I look at it this way, the manufacture advises against it for legalities because they are uncertain if it could possibly lock in 2 wheel drive. After you installed the spartan and you did the lock test how firm did you need to hold your front drive shaft to lock the wheels?

 

Regardless with you running the spartan up front with a straight axle do you hear the ratchet of the spartan at every corner? How long have you ran it this way? Do you check the teeth often?

 

 

i did the unlock test as per the instructions. spun it to lock (jacked up the whole axle, spinning one wheel acting like power was applied till locked) then spun one tire the opposite direction to make sure it unlocked. it did everytime. i hear no clicking. don't even really think it did much after i put it in. however when i did the test after first installed, i heard clicking but per instructions again, you should hear the clicking to ensure its working correctly. once ran awhile, it will quiet down as the teeth get "settled in". which they said would do once used.

ive helped install several spartans and aussies and everybody gets some clicking when first installed. after they run it, it quiets down because again, the teeth kind of groove themselves into the locker pattern so to speak. some say the aussies really click but some say they don't. so i don't know on that note...

 

now ive heard if you installed it wrong, without the proper spacing it could catch like your saying when turning because it can't space to properly stay unlocked. maybe as the springs wear it could be an issue but out of the box it should space its self correctly IMO. after all its how they designed it but stranger things have happened...

 

i check the teeth everytime the cover is pulled, along with ring gear teeth. its been awhile with it installed. decent street time and heavy offroad use. no issues with sharp turns or even regluar turns.

 

 

I would have thought it would ratchet a majority of the time. My lock rite in the rear will ratchet when i turn into a parking stall with out power applied. Almost like cards in bike spokes.

[SW86]

yeah my spartan in the rear will do that sometimes just rolling with no gas but it hasnt been in that long. the front never really has though :dunno:

[Comanche County]

Anything other than an open diff or factory LSD is just asking for trouble on ice. Don't do lockers on ice.

[Eagle]

Anything other than an open diff or factory LSD is just asking for trouble on ice. Don't do lockers on ice.

A limited slip is no different than a full locker on ice. There isn't enough tire traction to overcome the clutches in the LSD, so on ice it acts just like it's locked -- because it is.

 

Nevertheless, I want a LSD in any rear-wheel drive street vehicle I own. It's the difference between getting home in a winter storm, or parking at the bottom of some hill in the middle of nowhere.

[aaronbtxnc]

Anything other than an open diff or factory LSD is just asking for trouble on ice. Don't do lockers on ice.

A limited slip is no different than a full locker on ice. There isn't enough tire traction to overcome the clutches in the LSD, so on ice it acts just like it's locked -- because it is.

 

Nevertheless, I want a LSD in any rear-wheel drive street vehicle I own. It's the difference between getting home in a winter storm, or parking at the bottom of some hill in the middle of nowhere.

 

is the exact answer I was looking for.

Thanks! :bowdown:

[jeepcoma]

I vote Aussie lockers, I've been DDing them for years and love it. I started with 3.07 gears and open front and rear, and eventually upgraded to 3.55 with Aussies front and rear. 2x4 with the locker provides more traction than I used to get in 4x4 with the open axles, and in 4x4 now it's just a monster. The gearing is great for a street truck with stock tires, or lets you go slightly bigger without killing your power.

 

Mine click around corners. I have a straight front axle, no CAD. I don't have tire wear problems and the front doesn't lock unless it's under power. It's not a death trap on ice, I'm sick of hearing that. I've had some excellent winter cars ('85 Eagle 4x4 and '82 Ford Bronco II to name some great ones) and this is by far the best setup out of anything I've ever driven. I don't even bother putting weight in the bed, it doesn't need it. Because the wheels are locked, driving and slipping even are VERY PREDICTABLE compared to limited slips or systems with viscous couplings in the differential, if you know what you're doing. If you don't, go out to a parking lot and practice, because there's no magic 4x4 system that will replace experience behind the wheel in all conditions. No matter what system you go with, experience and comfort with knowing how it handles is the most important component to winter driving.

 

Given your D35, I'd say go for the front first if you ever plan on upgrading your rear in the near future. Traction will be there when you really need it, and with the NP231 you can shift on the fly if you're in conditions where it's warranted. I wouldn't worry too much about putting one in the D35, if it breaks, just pull it out and put it in another axle.