64 Cheyenne Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Either or, I'm in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 This isn't much of an update but here's where we stand. I'm still waiting to receive at least one or two more tracings/templates. I saw above where I should have a second one on its way. I had hoped that Motion Offroad was gonna come through for us but since he didn't respond the the PM I sent him I guess he's out. :dunno: I've talked to my sons father-n-law about the water jet. He says cutting the brackets will be a pc of cake. All he's waiting for is me to bring him a template and a pc of material big enough to cut how many I want out of. I told him I only wanted a couple of pairs for now so I can make sure they fit properly. No problem. Said he'll cut the rest whenever I want um. I am going to extend the brackets for a fourth mounting hole. Using that fourth hole is optional. BTW .... I think I know now why Pete hasn't drilled the hole for his additional 4th bolt. He can't get to it. :doh: Your gonna have to have an angle head drill to drill that hole. http://www.google.com/images?q=angle+he ... 24&bih=587 (or an angle head attachment for you regular drill) Gotta go. More later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If you need the assistance of a CNC plasma cutting machine and someone that will cut these out for an extremely reasonable price, give me a holler. I've got one of those new-fangled CNC machines just lying around. Can also test fit the piece on my many MJs lying about and I have a Comanche-specific Draw-tite hitch to compare it to. Basically, I have all of the tools available to me and I actually was going to make some of these, but I never got around to get the measurements from the hitch sideplates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I decided to not be so lazy and just measure the side plates and make a CAD drawing and create the G-code to cut it out on my plasma. Shot a video of the cutting process if anyone is interested. I haven't used the machine in quite some time, but I need to tweak some things on it. You can see it starts moving before the torch is fully fired: PJ7tvH8fEcE End result Unfortunately it didn't work out too well as it hits the rear-most leaf spring bolt. I'm going to tweak the drawing as it doesn't quite line up with the original Draw-Tite sideplate. Rev. 1 should be close to perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I tied mine into my upper shackle bolts. one more mounting point, plus reinforcement to that hangar.... maybe incorporate that? the bolts back out pretty easy, and can be run from inside-out so you can put the nut on the outside... -Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I tied mine into my upper shackle bolts. one more mounting point, plus reinforcement to that hangar.... maybe incorporate that? the bolts back out pretty easy, and can be run from inside-out so you can put the nut on the outside... -Pat Yea, that could easily be done. I'd just need to locate that rear shackle bolt in relation to the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Success! As you can see from the last picture it still needs a bit of tweaking since there is some overhang, but it fits on the truck well and clears the rear shackle bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 That bracket looks great. Since you've got the know how and the equipment, plus your already set up and have working prototype, it wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if you wanted to offer the brackets to whoever wants um. Maybe I'll just get a set from you and forget the water jetting. Naaa, I'll still make my own version with the mods I want. Do you have a press? If so you could also make the mounting plate for under the bumper. Yeah, I know the hitch doesn't need to be bolted to the bumper. Thats only part of the reason that plate is there. It also adds strength to the welding of the cross pc and the receiver itself. While your at it, you could cut the pc of plate for the safety chains too. Let me know what you wanna do. Meanwhile I'll keep at it from this end. Using the upper shackle bolt for an additional mounting point is a good idea. Keeps you from having to drill an additional hole in your frame too. :thumbsup: "Dechion" made another good suggestion about cutting holes in the brackets for the cross pc to go through. Doing so would make assembly/welding easier and allow for welding on both sides of the bracket. By the time we're finished beefing up and modifying this hitch, it aint gonna be nothing like a DrawTite. It'll be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My intent for making this bracket was to get you a drawing that is close (if not identical) to the original sideplates on the MJ-specific hitches. I've got something now with enough clearance that it will work, but it's not yet perfect. I would keep working at it from your end, as you said, and we can compare my drawing to yours when you get one. On my Draw-Tite hitch, the piece that goes under and bolts to the rear bumper is simply a piece of angle iron, which you can see here: I'd see what your water jet guy will charge for cutting these out on a large scale. I've got over five years of water jet experience so I know how finnicky those machines can be and the prices shops charge for them. They do produce a very clean cut and their precision is excellent. I'm not quite setup to be producing things on a large scale with the machine I have. In fact, last night was a reminder of why I had my Z-axis all torn down. I've got issues with the torch moving side to side because of some slop in the parts. I also don't have a large enough compressor to be cutting out parts on a large scale. I've been meaning to upgrade the compressor for years, but my plasma cutting machine still remains a hobby and I get by with what I have. I can make any modifications to the bracket that you want. I can extend the ends for D-ring mounts, but I feel you'll be sacrificing too much ground clearance if you do that. I would do what Motion Offroad suggested earlier in the thread and mount brackets directly to the rectangular cross piece instead. Let me know if you want to do any tweaking of the design. Unfortunately, I left the file on my CNC computer, which I've been having a hell of a time accessing remotely so it'll have to wait until tonight when I can get back to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My intent for making this bracket was to get you a drawing that is close (if not identical) to the original sideplates on the MJ-specific hitches. I've got something now with enough clearance that it will work, but it's not yet perfect. I would keep working at it from your end, as you said, and we can compare my drawing to yours when you get one.Ohhh, I thought you were setting up to run a bunch of um. Since your not then by all means I'd like to have one of your drawings. When your ready, I'll PM you my mailing address. (actually, its already on page 3) On my Draw-Tite hitch, the piece that goes under and bolts to the rear bumper is simply a piece of angle iron, which you can see here:Yeah, I knew that was a pc of angle iron. I just though if you were going to be making the brackets and if you had a press, making them would be cheaper than having to buy a 20' pc of angle iron. I'd see what your water jet guy will charge for cutting these out on a large scale. I've got over five years of water jet experience so I know how finnicky those machines can be and the prices shops charge for them. They do produce a very clean cut and their precision is excellent. I'm not quite setup to be producing things on a large scale with the machine I have. In fact, last night was a reminder of why I had my Z-axis all torn down. I've got issues with the torch moving side to side because of some slop in the parts. I also don't have a large enough compressor to be cutting out parts on a large scale. I've been meaning to upgrade the compressor for years, but my plasma cutting machine still remains a hobby and I get by with what I have.No problem. I'll continue from this end. Hopefully we'll have something in the next couple of weeks. I can make any modifications to the bracket that you want. I can extend the ends for D-ring mounts, but I feel you'll be sacrificing too much ground clearance if you do that. I would do what Motion Offroad suggested earlier in the thread and mount brackets directly to the rectangular cross piece instead. The brackets I'll make for everybody else won't have the D-ring extensions. The mods I would like to see/do is either the extension for the fourth bolt through the frame or to utilize the upper shackle bolt. I like the idea of using the upper shackle bolt the best. (no reason to drill holes in your frame in your don't have to) I also thing using the upper shackle bolt gives bolt pattern a bigger foot print resulting in more strength. Even better, why not have both? The fourth bolt extension could be added regardless. It wouldn't be in the way if you didn't wanna use it but it would be there if you did. With 5 bolts holding it on you could relocate your neighbors double wide for him. LOL!!! Thank you for your help. Between all of us I think we'll end up with some really nice brackets. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Wed should be designing this to replace the factory bumper bracket completely... Btw there is another bolt hole forward of the three on your plate that could be tied into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Wed should be designing this to replace the factory bumper bracket completely... Btw there is another bolt hole forward of the three on your plate that could be tied into... Give me some time and I'll see what I can come up with. I'm going to pull the bed off my black Comanche soon so I can get better access to all of this. It's currently buried in the back of my shop with crap all around it hence the incredibly horrible camera angles when I was test fitting it on the truck. I think a combo trailer hitch/rear bumper bracket in 3/16" or 1/4" steel would go a long way for maintaining the look of the stock rear bumper with an MJ-specific trailer hitch while also having some solid recovery points. Integrating the rear bumper brackets into the trailer hitch would also eliminate the need for the spacers on the hitch. But first things first, I need to fix my damn machine. The company that built it did such a Mickey Mouse job on some of the components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Ohhh, I thought you were setting up to run a bunch of um. Since your not then by all means I'd like to have one of your drawings. When your ready, I'll PM you my mailing address. (actually, its already on page 3) Yeah, I knew that was a pc of angle iron. I just though if you were going to be making the brackets and if you had a press, making them would be cheaper than having to buy a 20' pc of angle iron. No problem. I'll continue from this end. Hopefully we'll have something in the next couple of weeks. The brackets I'll make for everybody else won't have the D-ring extensions. The mods I would like to see/do is either the extension for the fourth bolt through the frame or to utilize the upper shackle bolt. I like the idea of using the upper shackle bolt the best. (no reason to drill holes in your frame in your don't have to) I also thing using the upper shackle bolt gives bolt pattern a bigger foot print resulting in more strength. Even better, why not have both? The fourth bolt extension could be added regardless. It wouldn't be in the way if you didn't wanna use it but it would be there if you did. With 5 bolts holding it on you could relocate your neighbors double wide for him. LOL!!! Thank you for your help. Between all of us I think we'll end up with some really nice brackets. Robert The file I have now is in .dxf format, which is what most CNC operators would need to generate the code needed for their particular machine. I could very easily run these in large batches and sell them if I were setup to do so. There are a few things preventing me from doing that: 1) A machine that would produce consistent parts. As I said before, there are some manufacturing issues with it right now that allows the Z-axis to move around during the cuts leaving me with beveled edges and dimensions that aren't quite the precision I would like them to be. 2) A local supply of metal. I live in Yuppieville, NJ (otherwise known as Princeton). The thought of anyone doing something that requires arduous tasks such as designing bracketry, modeling them in CAD, and cutting them on a CNC is unheard of, thus, the number of metal suppliers in this area is equivalent to the number ZERO. The one place that is within 35 minutes of my shop does not have reasonable pricing on their metal and cuts it with a torch so that when I get it, it's warped to all hell. 3) My compressed air supply is too small to run large batches of parts. I have a Home Depot compressor that puts out maybe 8CFM@75psi on a good day. My plasma cutter requires a minimum of 8.5CFM@60psi so you can see I'm pushing the limits. It's fine for doing one part and then stopping to let the compressor recharge, but is not sufficient for mass producing items. I will be producing certain items in the future for purchase, but they will be done in small batches and will be of limited availability. I've just got too much other stuff I need to get done first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Oh, a note about pressing a flat plate to a 90 degree angle versus using angle iron. I would much rather just purchase a 20' piece of angle. Angle iron is cheap and getting a hydraulic press (actually, it would be a brake) capable of doing the thicknesses we're looking at (I think about 3/16") is big money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeepcoMJ Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 hmm. I wonder how much interest there would be in a heavy duty close-to-stock looking rear bumper, which utilizes all of the stock rubber trim, and mounts the same way... that, with these mounts set up to replace the stock bumper bracket would be something I'd gladly pay $400 for if I was going to build a DD style MJ that needed to look close to stock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 hmm. I wonder how much interest there would be in a heavy duty close-to-stock looking rear bumper, which utilizes all of the stock rubber trim, and mounts the same way... that, with these mounts set up to replace the stock bumper bracket would be something I'd gladly pay $400 for if I was going to build a DD style MJ that needed to look close to stock... That idea may already be in the works... I had that idea for my '88MJ that I'm dropping the 5.9L Magnum engine into. I want to keep the body of the truck as close to stock as possible, but I also want it to be useful. It's going to have a moderate lift and will see more offroad action than the rest of my Jeep fleet. All I have at the moment are rough dimensions from a stock rear bumper and some prices for bending 10Ga. 12Ga., and 3/16" plate at the right radius for the corners. I've got all of the resources to make something like that happen - just no time. I need to quit my day job :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechion Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 hmm. I wonder how much interest there would be in a heavy duty close-to-stock looking rear bumper, which utilizes all of the stock rubber trim, and mounts the same way... that, with these mounts set up to replace the stock bumper bracket would be something I'd gladly pay $400 for if I was going to build a DD style MJ that needed to look close to stock... It's something I have thought about as well. Obviously it would depend on the price and such, but there woudl certainly be interest. Hell, you've seen my rear bumper. It's kind of a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinkrun Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I never did get the template out went Monday and the post was closed and forgot today. Now it sounds like you guys have this under control. Jacked88 do you still want the paper template? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I never did get the template out went Monday and the post was closed and forgot today. Now it sounds like you guys have this under control. Jacked88 do you still want the paper template? YES!!! Please. Even though their supposed to be of the same DrawTite hitch, I'd still like to have more than one template to compare against each other. :doh: You guys are killin me here. Let me make sure I've got this straight. Yall want an all in one bracket for both the bumper and a receiver hitch. :rotf: Dream on. Naaaa, its definitely do-able. A little enginuity into making something better is what its all about. First ..... The biggest problem we'll have to overcome is that a flat pc of 1/4" plate won't have much side to side strength. It would have plenty of up/down strength but minimal from side to side. That's why the stock bumper brackets have a channel design and a bolt going upward through the frame. The easiest cure for that would be to make the brackets out of heavier plate. Like 1/2". Even if you were pulling or being pulled from the side, the a-s ends of our trucks aren't heavy enough to bend 2 pcs of 1/2" plate. There is a way to make the lighter 1/4" brackets stronger. That would be to weld a gusset to the back side of um. The gusset could be designed to use the same upward bolt the stock brackets use. My vote is for using the heavier 1/2" material but I'll look into the gusset idea too. There again, why not have both? Heavier material and gussets. :thumbsup: Either way I guess its back to the drawing board. :wall: LOL!!! I have an extra bumper with brackets on it. I'll pull the brackets and make templates. Then I'll overlay the templates of the hitch and bumper brackets and incorporate both into one template. That part shouldn't be hard to do. Making a prototype and being sure it fits properly is another thing. I've got a full plate with 3 projects going right now so updates may come slowly for the next couple of weeks. Regardless, I'll try to keep up with yalls ever changing bracket modifications :headpop: LOL!!! and let you know how their coming along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Ohhh, I thought you were setting up to run a bunch of um. Since your not then by all means I'd like to have one of your drawings. When your ready, I'll PM you my mailing address. (actually, its already on page 3) Yeah, I knew that was a pc of angle iron. I just though if you were going to be making the brackets and if you had a press, making them would be cheaper than having to buy a 20' pc of angle iron. No problem. I'll continue from this end. Hopefully we'll have something in the next couple of weeks. The brackets I'll make for everybody else won't have the D-ring extensions. The mods I would like to see/do is either the extension for the fourth bolt through the frame or to utilize the upper shackle bolt. I like the idea of using the upper shackle bolt the best. (no reason to drill holes in your frame in your don't have to) I also thing using the upper shackle bolt gives bolt pattern a bigger foot print resulting in more strength. Even better, why not have both? The fourth bolt extension could be added regardless. It wouldn't be in the way if you didn't wanna use it but it would be there if you did. With 5 bolts holding it on you could relocate your neighbors double wide for him. LOL!!! Thank you for your help. Between all of us I think we'll end up with some really nice brackets. Robert The file I have now is in .dxf format, which is what most CNC operators would need to generate the code needed for their particular machine. I could very easily run these in large batches and sell them if I were setup to do so. There are a few things preventing me from doing that: 1) A machine that would produce consistent parts. As I said before, there are some manufacturing issues with it right now that allows the Z-axis to move around during the cuts leaving me with beveled edges and dimensions that aren't quite the precision I would like them to be. 2) A local supply of metal. I live in Yuppieville, NJ (otherwise known as Princeton). The thought of anyone doing something that requires arduous tasks such as designing bracketry, modeling them in CAD, and cutting them on a CNC is unheard of, thus, the number of metal suppliers in this area is equivalent to the number ZERO. The one place that is within 35 minutes of my shop does not have reasonable pricing on their metal and cuts it with a torch so that when I get it, it's warped to all hell. 3) My compressed air supply is too small to run large batches of parts. I have a Home Depot compressor that puts out maybe 8CFM@75psi on a good day. My plasma cutter requires a minimum of 8.5CFM@60psi so you can see I'm pushing the limits. It's fine for doing one part and then stopping to let the compressor recharge, but is not sufficient for mass producing items. I will be producing certain items in the future for purchase, but they will be done in small batches and will be of limited availability. I've just got too much other stuff I need to get done first. No problem. I'll keep at um from my end. Now about that dxf file you have. If your still willing to help, you said most CNC's would need it to create the codes they need. Really??? :brows: Considering your not set up to run these brackets on a larger scale, what ya gonna do with it and do you think my jet guy could benefit from it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Most likely. If his waterjet is made by OMAX, he will directly import it into OMAXLayout - the software to create the shapes and will define a cut path and generate the G-code for the machine to read. If he uses some other layout and G-code generation program like MasterCAM, it's the same deal. If he's hardcore and writes G-code by hand, he'll still need the file to tell the machine what coordinates it needs to go to. Now, as far as what I'm going to do with that file - not much in the immediate future. I'm going to eventually look into incorporating the rear bumper brackets into my design. I'll give you the file if you think you can get these made for a reasonable price. Water jetting isn't cheap, but I'm hoping that your in-laws will cut you a break on the machining costs. I just need to physically be at the computer that the file is located on and I haven't been there yet. I remove internet access to it in the extremely rare event that someone gets on my network and then they can mess with my machine from anywhere in the world. Yea, I'm paranoid....but that machine wasn't cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Most likely. If his waterjet is made by OMAX, he will directly import it into OMAXLayout - the software to create the shapes and will define a cut path and generate the G-code for the machine to read. If he uses some other layout and G-code generation program like MasterCAM, it's the same deal. If he's hardcore and writes G-code by hand, he'll still need the file to tell the machine what coordinates it needs to go to. Now, as far as what I'm going to do with that file - not much in the immediate future. I'm going to eventually look into incorporating the rear bumper brackets into my design. I'll give you the file if you think you can get these made for a reasonable price. Water jetting isn't cheap, but I'm hoping that your in-laws will cut you a break on the machining costs. I just need to physically be at the computer that the file is located on and I haven't been there yet. I remove internet access to it in the extremely rare event that someone gets on my network and then they can mess with my machine from anywhere in the world. Yea, I'm paranoid....but that machine wasn't cheap. Awesome. I'll find out what kind of machine he has and try to get a ballpark idea on the cost per bracket. I'm sure the cost is going to depend on how many we want/need. If I/we only want 2-3 sets he'll likely do um for free. If we're talking 2-3 dozen, I'm gonna have to buy a sheet of material and I doubt he can do that many without charging me something. This is why I was trying to get an idea on how many we need. So far there's only about a dozen people subscribed to this thread. Out of that dozen not everybody says their interested in getting any. I have no doubt the number will determine the cost. In most cases the more you buy the cheaper they are. In this case it may be just the opposite. Not having the good ole in-law break, how much do you think the jetting should cost? Not including materials, only the jetting. So how would we/he get that file? Via computer or copying it to a disc and mailing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrawombat Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Awesome. I'll find out what kind of machine he has and try to get a ballpark idea on the cost per bracket. I'm sure the cost is going to depend on how many we want/need. If I/we only want 2-3 sets he'll likely do um for free. If we're talking 2-3 dozen, I'm gonna have to buy a sheet of material and I doubt he can do that many without charging me something. This is why I was trying to get an idea on how many we need. So far there's only about a dozen people subscribed to this thread. Out of that dozen not everybody says their interested in getting any. I have no doubt the number will determine the cost. In most cases the more you buy the cheaper they are. In this case it may be just the opposite. Not having the good ole in-law break, how much do you think the jetting should cost? Not including materials, only the jetting. So how would we/he get that file? Via computer or copying it to a disc and mailing it? I can only comment on how much I would charge for my own design time for the CAD, CNC plasma and materials. Every machinist does it different so it's really, really hard to give a number. However, using my standard calculations, I would probably charge $40-$50 for a pair of 3/16" brackets that were plasma cut. $50-$60 for 1/4" brackets. The range in prices depends on if I can get back to my original supplier of metal that was charging me 50 cents/pound for mild steel. My current local supplier is almost triple that cost. The electricity use between plasma cutting and water jetting is almost a wash. Plasma uses a lot of amps to generate an arc to burn through the metal. Water jetting uses quite a few amps to power a high pressure pump to 40,000-50,000 psi to pierce through metal. Water jetting also uses an abrasive garnet that is mixed with the water to cut through the metal so that adds some cost to it. Water jetting also is much, much slower than plasma. I can burn out a set of these plates in about 2-3 minutes. Water jetting would be much, much longer. Time = money. Materials = money. Water jetting is, however, more precise and will give you a cleaner cut. It also won't burn the metal and discolor it like plasma can do. As far as the file is concerned, I could just e-mail it to you and you could e-mail it to him. It's only 27Kb in size. This message is probably more than that! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiatslug87 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 ...I'd still like to have more than one template to compare against each other. I measured all three of mine and they're all within measurement error of the template/measurements I sent you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I tied mine into my upper shackle bolts. one more mounting point, plus reinforcement to that hangar.... maybe incorporate that? the bolts back out pretty easy, and can be run from inside-out so you can put the nut on the outside... -Pat Do you have any pix of your brackets? Making the modification for the shackle bolt shouldn't be hard to do but I'd still like to see how you did yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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