Locker questions ?????

[JACKED88]

Been readin up on lockers. Read a review saying that when your in loose sand or slick mud and have a locker in the rear, it tends to push your vehicle streight while trying to turn. That tha locker won't unlock since the sand/mud doesnt create enough resistance to unlock it.

Being a 2x4 atv rider, I know that my streight axle definately tries to push my atv streight so I can see where the same could be true with a locked dif.

However, I've also driven 4x4 atv's and know that the front wheel drive definately helps pull you around corners even though the rear is trying to push you streight? With that in mind, I would think tha same would be true having locked diff's in both front and rear of a vehicle.

 

 

Bottom line ...... is having a locker in the rear necessarily a good idea to have for offroading through slick surface mud where steering is critical to keep you from bouncing off of trees?

Also, who's lunchbox lockers offer tha biggest bang for you buck? Aussie, Lock Right, P.O.R.K., OTHER???

(Be nice if these $209 dollar PORK's are actually any good. http://www.performanceoffroadcenter.com ... ts_id=6046

Or are they like everything else ....... ya git what ya pay for.

[jpdocdave]

its true when wheels are locked manuevering is changed because any movement but straight requires different wheel speeds, but that is a very small sacrifice for the abilities gained by a locker, night and day for off roading. once you learn how it reacts you'll never go back, and you will be able to manuever fine.

[Blue XJ]

In my opinion, I would lock the front first. I have ran locked front/open rear, locked front/locked rear, open front/locked rear and the most predictable and biggest noticeable difference was just having the front locked. Even in mud, once you point the wheels where you want to go, they both pull you in that direction. I've had a couple Aussie lockers up front and have absolutely no complaints about them. I am currently replacing my Powertrax NoSlip that I have in the rear with an ARB, now that there is snow on the ground, the Powertrax is making it very difficult to daily drive my truck. It always wants to stay locked while driving, (which its supposed to when torque is being applied to it) which is making the rear end break traction and slide around a lot.

[project88mj]

Or are they like everything else ....... ya git what ya pay for.

 

this is the truth... when you are spending money on parts that make yout truck move and IF they break your no longer moving ... do you want to go cheap? :smart:

 

if you are going to spend money then SPEND THE MONEY RIGHT!

 

also don't waste any money on a Dana35 they are too weak. up grade to a dana 44 for a 8.8 out of a explorer that has disk breaks and lower gears

[mvusse]

29 spline out of a Cherokee is almost as strong as a D44, and much easier to find.

 

I have an Aussie in the front and love it. When I have money to lock the rear it will get an Aussie as well.

[Automan2164]

Get an aussie locker for the front, and don't look back.

 

Rob L.

[88mjmanche]

i also have an aussie in the front and a lock right in the rear . it is unbelievable in any situation rock,mud,snow..... ecttt.

the olny problem "well not really a problem but weird" is when in 4 high going down the ROAD it tends to recenter it self real fast.

buuuuuutttttt any who locking will dubble the traction over a open diff and if you have a DANA 35 with 32s or bigger get ready to replace shafts the are like hand gernads with no pin

[JACKED88]

Not puttin a locker in my stock 35. Bought a 8.25 but havent installed it yet. Wanna git gears and a locker for it first.

When you put a locker in tha front, don't you still have some front axle control by means of the D30's axle disconnect?

Knowing tha drivers side axle is always spinning the differential when you have a locker installed, wouldnt the passenger side axle being disconnected help with steering in two wheel drive mode?

 

Isnt there a good limited slip carrier for a 8.25? If there is I'd consider going that route for tha rear. I highly doubt I'd wear one out considering tha few miles I'll put on this truck in tha next 5 years or so. How well does the optional factory installed Trac-loc's work and at what wheel speed do they start locking?

The only real experence I have with limited slips is from my hot rod days running 9" Ford rear ends out of 4x4 trucks that had limited slips. Those l/s diffs definately locked up with very little difference in right/left wheel speed. I would think these newer l/s diffs would work as good or better than what we had 25+ years ago. :dunno: Then again ...... maybe not. :hmm:

 

 

EDIT ....... Assuming the Trac-loc's in the 8.25's are worth a damn, what all did they come in? (Jeeps, Chryslers, Dodges, Other?) Aslo what years? I know they were an option in 97 and up Cherokee's so wouldnt most 4x4 Dakota's and Durago's likely have um as well?

 

EDIT ...... What about a Power lock?

[Eagle]

Isnt there a good limited slip carrier for a 8.25? If there is I'd consider going that route for tha rear. I highly doubt I'd wear one out considering tha few miles I'll put on this truck in tha next 5 years or so. How well does the optional factory installed Trac-loc's work and at what wheel speed do they start locking?

Define "good."

 

The Trac-Lok is a "good" limited slip, but it isn't a locker and it isn't ideal for serious, heavy duty off-road use. There is no speed at which it starts locking -- it isn't a locker. It uses clutches, which are always engaged (not "locked"). If the torque to one side exceeds that on the other side by a certain amount, the clutches let go and allow the two sides of the differential to slip -- hence the name limited slip. There is a heavier duty clutch type limited slip that is available for the Chrysler axle, from Auburn Gear. You can see a description of it here http://www.reiderracing.com/index.php?c ... _5852_5961

[JACKED88]

Isnt there a good limited slip carrier for a 8.25? If there is I'd consider going that route for tha rear. I highly doubt I'd wear one out considering tha few miles I'll put on this truck in tha next 5 years or so. How well does the optional factory installed Trac-loc's work and at what wheel speed do they start locking?

Define "good."

 

The Trac-Lok is a "good" limited slip, but it isn't a locker and it isn't ideal for serious, heavy duty off-road use. There is no speed at which it starts locking -- it isn't a locker. It uses clutches, which are always engaged (not "locked"). If the torque to one side exceeds that on the other side by a certain amount, the clutches let go and allow the two sides of the differential to slip -- hence the name limited slip. There is a heavier duty clutch type limited slip that is available for the Chrysler axle, from Auburn Gear. You can see a description of it here http://www.reiderracing.com/index.php?c ... _5852_5961

"good" One that frickin works!!! :rotf: One that gives you traction when and where you need it.

Not "good". One that only spins tha wheel with tha least amout of traction. :shake:

 

My bad. I knew tha clutches stay engaged while driving streight and then slip while making a turn or when traction differs. Don't know why I ask at what wheel speed they start locking. :dunno: Whatever I had in mind I know how a limited slip works. Kinda.

 

"If the torque to one side exceeds that on the other side by a certain amount, the clutches let go and allow the two sides of the differential to slip -- hence the name limited slip."

 

OK, but which side? I know it can be either side depending on the situation so lets use this for an example.

Your in mud with one side of your truck down in a rut and the other on level ground. Obviously the one in the rut would require more torque to spin where as the one level ground would require less. Which side is gonna dis-engage? If the one in tha rut dis-engages then thats no different than an open diff that allows the wheel with the least traction to spin. If thats tha case, nothing would be gained by having a limited slip. A limited slip would have to work opposite of an open diff in order to give you traction where its needed the most. In tha rut.

 

Oh, and I don't do "serious" offroading. Most of my miles are on tha street. My offroading consist of driving down often muddy roads/trails on level ground. No rock crawling, no mountain climbing or seeing how fast I can blast through a mud pit. Just picture slowly driving around on muddy deer camp roads/trails.

[Eagle]

If both wheels are in mud, both wheels spin. If one wheel is in mud (or on ice/snow) and the other wheel is on dry, solid ground, unless you get nuts with the skinny pedal neither wheel will spin. The power goes to the rear diff, the clutches hold everything together, and the wheel on dry ground gets power while the one in the muck just goes along for the ride.

 

Here's an example: When my mother was alive, the last car she bought she asked my brother and me for advice on what equipment to get. We live in rural/suburban New England -- we have snow, and we have mud. So we advised her to get the limited skip diff (whatever AMC was calling it that year) and she did.

 

The town where she lived did not (and does not) have municipal trash pick-up, so she used to take her trash to the landfill once every week or so. And back then it was a "landfill," not a "transfer station." No pavement, just dirt. She backed down to the drop-off one (very) rainy day, emptied her trash, and then tried to drive out. The back end just dug itself down -- both wheels -- until the bumper was on the ground. The guys hooked her up and dragged her out with the Payloader. To the day she died, she swore that it was that limited slip thing that got her stuck, if she didn't have that she could have driven right out.

 

Yep, Okay, Mom, luv ya.

[Pete M]

Read a review saying that when your in loose sand or slick mud and have a locker in the rear, it tends to push your vehicle streight while trying to turn.

 

 

hmmm. got a link to that review? I always thought that situation was caused by a spooled front. :dunno:

[Eagle]

Read a review saying that when your in loose sand or slick mud and have a locker in the rear, it tends to push your vehicle streight while trying to turn.

 

 

hmmm. got a link to that review? I always thought that situation was caused by a spooled front. :dunno:

Yep. I learned that the first winter I had a front wheel drive car. Spool would just make it worse.

[JACKED88]

Read a review saying that when your in loose sand or slick mud and have a locker in the rear, it tends to push your vehicle streight while trying to turn.

 

 

hmmm. got a link to that review? I always thought that situation was caused by a spooled front. :dunno:

:doh: Do you have any idea what your askin??? I was just surfin tha net lookin for all tha info I could find on lockers and that was just one of countless reviews I read. Chances of finding it again is slim to none but I'll try. :papers:

 

Another locker question ........ Other than gear lube, what keeps tha teeth on a locker from rounding off and or wearing down with all the ratcheting they do when turning? From what I can tell by looking at pix, tha teeth on a lunchbox locker arent very big to begin with. Seems like they'd wear down pretty quickly especially when installed in a daily driver.

Using the drive dogs found in a lower gear case of an outboard motor as an example (and considering I know quite a bit about um) the worst thing you can do is ratchet those dogs when you put you boat into gear. If you've ever driven a boat you know what I'm talking about. They all do it if you don't shift um firmly. Although those dogs normally last for a long time when shifted correctly, they do wear down. Especially if their ratcheted all tha time. (like a locker)

 

My being concerned about locker wear brings me back to tha question I ask about having front axle engagement/dis-engagement control if you have a locker in a D30 front axle. Can't you still dis-engage tha passenger side axle by way of your axle disconnect, therefore eliminating tha need for tha locker to ratchet when turning?

[jeepcoma]

Another locker question ........ Other than gear lube, what keeps tha teeth on a locker from rounding off and or wearing down with all the ratcheting they do when turning?

 

I think the main reason is that when the locker is ratcheting, there is very little pressure trying to clamp the teeth together (because when there is pressure, it's locked). At least with my aussie locker, it's very easy to manually disengage the locker when a wheel is in the air, there's pretty much no resistance. As soon as the driving power overcomes the differential force from turning, it locks. When it's locked, it's the power from the engine that keeps it engaged, and in order to unlock the differential force needs to overcome the very slight spring pressure (and engine power, which is zero) holding the teeth together. At least that's my basic understanding :hmm: Aussie has more detailed information on their site and I'd assume any of the other popular lockers do as well.

 

My being concerned about locker wear brings me back to tha question I ask about having front axle engagement/dis-engagement control if you have a locker in a D30 front axle. Can't you still dis-engage tha passenger side axle by way of your axle disconnect, therefore eliminating tha need for tha locker to ratchet when turning?

 

You could. If you ignore the "CAD-is-the-worst-invention-in-the-history-of-the-human-race" rants, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. I'd have mine working but I have a one-piece axle instead. I've never been in a situation where I needed the working CAD, nor has it been an issue, though for off-roading it might be more of a consideration? (I don't do serious off-roading, but I think certain conditions are better approached with the ability to select). If I had a stock two-piece axle I'd get the CAD working though, and maybe just shim it for the winter to not have to worry about it failing when you really need 4wd (if you worry about that sort of thing).

[JACKED88]

Thanks for reply. :thumbsup: I've read up on numerous different lockers and although they do give you some basic info on how their products work, they don't really go into detail. What you wrote makes better since to me. Thanks again.

As far as using tha CAD to disconnect the axle, I'll likely install tha cable setup for positive operation. When I ask about disconnecting the axle and eliminating tha need for locker ratcheting, I was refering to while its in 2x4. However that raises another question ....... problem is I'm not sure how to word it. :hmm: Lets say you have a locker in your D30 axle. Your in 2x4 mode with the passenger side axle disconnected via CAD. Will the driver side axle still ratchet tha locker when turning or will the locker remain locked and as with an open diff continue to rotate tha diff carrier? Seems to me the driver side axle would still ratchet tha locker since your not applying any engine torque keeping tha locker, locked.

[Blue XJ]

If your in 2wd and the front axle is disconnected at the CAD, the locker will remain locked and the inner shaft on the passenger side will spin together with the driver side. there will still be differential action between the two halves of the disconnect shafts while turning.

 

Also, with a CAD when in 2wd with an open diff, your front driveshaft will not spin, or at least only minimally due to friction. When you put a locker in the front end, it will spin the carrier, which will cause the front driveshaft to spin. When I put a lunchbox locker in the front of mine, I had to find a replacement front driveshaft, since my old one was worn out, and now that it spun, it gave me vibrations. It might not become a problem for you, just figured I would mention it.

[64 Cheyenne]

If you was going to do the cable route, why not just weld the spiders and have a disconnect-able spool in the front ?

Seems like the same thing for a whole lot less.

[JACKED88]

When you put a locker in the front end, it will spin the carrier, which will cause the front driveshaft to spin. .

OK, so while in 2x4 with tha passenger side axle disconnected via CAD, tha locker won't recognize any difference in wheel speeds when turning and therefore stay locked. Only while in 4x4 with both axles engaged will tha locker ratchet when turning.

[JACKED88]

If you was going to do the cable route, why not just weld the spiders and have a disconnect-able spool in the front ?

Seems like the same thing for a whole lot less.

What do you mean by a disconnectable spool and doin it for less? If you talkin about an "e" - or air locker, all tha ones I've seen are $600-$800 bucks. I can buy an Aussie and fab a home grown cable for under $400. OK, so maybe not actually a home grown cable. Something like this but with a coated/insulated cable.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/home ... up-595515/

[jeepcoma]

OK, so while in 2x4 with tha passenger side axle disconnected via CAD, tha locker won't recognize any difference in wheel speeds when turning and therefore stay locked. Only while in 4x4 with both axles engaged will tha locker ratchet when turning.

 

Correct, the left wheel will be locked to the half-shaft of the right wheel and won't need to differentiate. Or, if you've eliminated the CAD by some means, the front will ratchet even in 2x4.

 

Me, I wouldn't bother with the cable system and either use the stock vacuum CAD (and make sure it's in good working order) or bypass the CAD and leave it locked full time (which is what I have).

[Pete M]

as someone with a spool up front (ford dana 44), I can tell you that the chances of disengaging the CAD when you really need to will be almost zero. with no hope of differentiation, the system binds up and won't even let you steer. You'd have to find a way to eliminate all of the bind just for the hope of getting the CAD to let go (backing up, putting it into 2wd, etc.). And if you are successful, you're now sending ALL that power through one little 260 joint. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. :(

 

I hate my front spool and it will be swapped out for a regular locker at the first opportunity.

[64 Cheyenne]

Makes sense to me. Wouldnt a locker like a detroit do the same thing with a CAD:IE send all the torque to the .........never mind..... :wall:

[Eagle]

And if you are successful, you're now sending ALL that power through one little 260 joint. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

And what happens with a locker if you're rock crawling and lift one front wheel off the ground?

[Pete M]

snap crackle pop.

 

:(