ftpiercecracker1 Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 This should be a pretty simple question, but I just haven't found a precise answer yet. Working on an older house and I found several single pole light switches that are ran with the neutral as the switched leg. Power is distributed throughout the room via the ceiling fan junction box. From an electrical standpoint this works just fine, but is it code compliant? What happens with the unused neutral in the fan juction box that was part of the incoming power? Should i leave it or change it? Whole house is completely torn apart, so it would be a trifle to change it. I suppose the proper way to do it is to run two separate leads to the light switch, use the black wire as normal, tie the neutrals together, and attach the ground wire to the box if it's metal, otherwise wire nut them together too. Seems like a waste of wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 It's common, or it was, still is in some areas I suppose............ To run hot to the ceiling box, use one romex to the switch, hot comes in on black and back to the ceiling on white to complete the hot circuit. Your explanation of what you have seems rather convoluted........the common is always tied together. If someone switched the common rather than the hot leg.......just move the wires around in the box. No need to rewire. What you are accustomed to seeing is hot brought to the switch box, commons tied together, switch leg running to light box. More common today as the switch box is often used as a junction box with the hot running off to the next box in the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Definitely not to code. Fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftpiercecracker1 Posted September 27, 2019 Author Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Jeep Driver said: It's common, or it was, still is in some areas I suppose............ To run hot to the ceiling box, use one romex to the switch, hot comes in on black and back to the ceiling on white to complete the hot circuit. Your explanation of what you have seems rather convoluted........the common is always tied together. If someone switched the common rather than the hot leg.......just move the wires around in the box. No need to rewire. What you are accustomed to seeing is hot brought to the switch box, commons tied together, switch leg running to light box. More common today as the switch box is often used as a junction box with the hot running off to the next box in the wall. You had it right the first time. Power is distributed throughout the room at the light box in the middle of the cieling. A single run of 14/2 comes out of the light box to the switch box, white is hot coming into the switch box. Hot white wire attaches to the single pole switch and the black wire carrys current back to power the light itself. If all there is in this circut is the light and switch what do you do with the neutral white wire that is part of the main incoming power? 13 minutes ago, Eagle said: Definitely not to code. Fix it. How i described? A deicated run of 14/2 to and from light to switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: Power is distributed throughout the room at the light box in the middle of the cieling. A single run of 14/2 comes out of the light box to the switch box, white is hot coming into the switch box. Hot white wire attaches to the single pole switch and the black wire carrys current back to power the light itself. Perfectly normal. 5 minutes ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: If all there is in this circut is the light and switch what do you do with the neutral white wire that is part of the main incoming power? Neutral wire, white wire, is connected to the white wire of the light/fan. Black or white wire from the switch is connected to the black wire of the light/fan. 7 minutes ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: How i described? A deicated run of 14/2 to and from light to switch? You live in FL, that's the way houses were wired back in the 50s and 60s......maybe even in the early 70s. I've never seen an inspector look twice at that.......referring to remodels where most of the existing house was not effected by the addition or remodel. As you describe, would pass an inspection today. Code or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeep Driver Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 BTW and FWIW- One reason it's not done today is back then that ceiling box would be stuffed, and I mean stuffed with wire.......today 'stuffing the box' will get you a red tag, that is against code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renoenvy08 Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 FYI, the reason everyone quit doing electrical wiring that way is due to fire, I just rewired my friends house, he had knob and tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 3 hours ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: Power is distributed throughout the room at the light box in the middle of the cieling. A single run of 14/2 comes out of the light box to the switch box, white is hot coming into the switch box. Hot white wire attaches to the single pole switch and the black wire carrys current back to power the light itself. That alone is a code violation. White is supposed to be neutral. ALWAYS. If a 2-conductor cable is used the way you describe, the hot white wire is supposed to be wrapped with black tape for the 6 or 8 inches that are in the switch box, as well as in the box where the white connects to power. Quote If all there is in this circut is the light and switch what do you do with the neutral white wire that is part of the main incoming power? You need to find out where all the wires in that room come from and go to. There should not BE an "unused" neutral. Quote How i described? A deicated run of 14/2 to and from light to switch? See comment above if you're going to use standard 14/2. Better (IMHO) would be to use two lengths of black wire. But ... what's the point of adding two wires from the light to the switch? You already have two wires. But your opening post said the neutral conductor to (from) the light is switched. Now you say the wire from the overhead box to the switch is hot -- that's not neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old man with MJ Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 What does your main panel have, glass fuses or circuit breakers, are your receptacles three pronged? It would pay off to have it brought up to code by an electrician, also a good thing when you go to sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftpiercecracker1 Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 On 9/26/2019 at 11:20 PM, Jeep Driver said: BTW and FWIW- One reason it's not done today is back then that ceiling box would be stuffed, and I mean stuffed with wire.......today 'stuffing the box' will get you a red tag, that is against code. Yes, the house is a 1970s house. And yes I'm running into several junction boxes that are stuffed. Whole house is ran 12/2, absolute PITA to work with. 22 hours ago, Eagle said: That alone is a code violation. White is supposed to be neutral. ALWAYS. If a 2-conductor cable is used the way you describe, the hot white wire is supposed to be wrapped with black tape for the 6 or 8 inches that are in the switch box, as well as in the box where the white connects to power. Tape. Got it. 22 hours ago, Eagle said: You need to find out where all the wires in that room come from and go to. There should not BE an "unused" neutral. Working on that. Jeep driver cleared up the unused neutral question. 22 hours ago, Eagle said: See comment above if you're going to use standard 14/2. Better (IMHO) would be to use two lengths of black wire. But ... what's the point of adding two wires from the light to the switch? You already have two wires. But your opening post said the neutral conductor to (from) the light is switched. Now you say the wire from the overhead box to the switch is hot -- that's not neutral. Neutral is not being switched. It is being used as the switching leg. Power originates from the light box. A single run of 12/2 is ran to the switch box. One of the conductors (black or white) carrys current to the switch. Whichever wire was not used to carry power to said switch, carrys power back to the light box to power the light. If black carried power to the swtich, white carries it back to the light or vice versa. 13 hours ago, Old man with MJ said: What does your main panel have, glass fuses or circuit breakers, are your receptacles three pronged? It would pay off to have it brought up to code by an electrician, also a good thing when you go to sell it. Breakers, thank god. Three prong. Yes it would, but that is nit going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftpiercecracker1 Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Another wrinkle. Ive found several circuits that utilize 12/3 and separate the red and black into two single pole breakers (Red, black, white, bare) Tracking these circuits down has been extra fun, because there are a couple 3-way lights used in the house and 12/3 wire is used as jumper wire to connect outlets to junction boxes or switches to boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 hour ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: Neutral is not being switched. It is being used as the switching leg. Power originates from the light box. A single run of 12/2 is ran to the switch box. One of the conductors (black or white) carrys current to the switch. Whichever wire was not used to carry power to said switch, carrys power back to the light box to power the light. If black carried power to the swtich, white carries it back to the light or vice versa. There is no difference between switching the neutral, and switching the neutral leg. Everything between the circuit breaker and the outlet (light fixture or receptacle) is part of the hot leg -- regardless of what color the wire insulation is. Everything from the outlet (light fixture or receptacle) back to the neutral bus in the breaker panel is neutral -- regardless of what color the wire is. If you have two wires going from the light fixture box down the the switch and then back to the ceiling box, whichever leg they are on, they are both on the same leg. They are either both hot (supply), or they are both neutral. As I piece together your posts, it sounds like it is the hot leg (not the neutral leg) that's switched, but they didn't tape the ends of the white conductor in the 14/2 cable to indicate that it's hot. The fact that it's white does NOT make it neutral. If it's in the supply side of the circuit (upstream of the light), it's supply, not neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 hour ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: Another wrinkle. Ive found several circuits that utilize 12/3 and separate the red and black into two single pole breakers (Red, black, white, bare) Tracking these circuits down has been extra fun, because there are a couple 3-way lights used in the house and 12/3 wire is used as jumper wire to connect outlets to junction boxes or switches to boxes. Using 12/3 is a less expensive way to get two circuits to the same general part of the house. The NEC (National Electric Code) allows both red and black as the supply side. Google up wiring for 3-way switches. For those, you need 12/3 (or 14/3) because there are two "hot" conductors between the two switch locations. Only one is hot at a time, of course, but if you turn the light off from one switch and then turn it on from the other switch, you'll be using the other conductor when you turn it back on. In fact, never mind -- here it is: https://www.familyhandyman.com/electrical/wiring-switches/how-to-wire-a-threeway-switch/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftpiercecracker1 Posted September 29, 2019 Author Share Posted September 29, 2019 19 hours ago, Eagle said: As I piece together your posts, it sounds like it is the hot leg (not the neutral leg) that's switched, but they didn't tape the ends of the white conductor in the 14/2 cable to indicate that it's hot. The fact that it's white does NOT make it neutral. If it's in the supply side of the circuit (upstream of the light), it's supply, not neutral. Yes. In this configuration white is supposed to be netural, but in this instance it has been repurposed to save money. 19 hours ago, Eagle said: Using 12/3 is a less expensive way to get two circuits to the same general part of the house. The NEC (National Electric Code) allows both red and black as the supply side. Google up wiring for 3-way switches. For those, you need 12/3 (or 14/3) because there are two "hot" conductors between the two switch locations. Only one is hot at a time, of course, but if you turn the light off from one switch and then turn it on from the other switch, you'll be using the other conductor when you turn it back on. In fact, never mind -- here it is: https://www.familyhandyman.com/electrical/wiring-switches/how-to-wire-a-threeway-switch/ Thanks for the link, fortunately i am already well acquainted with multiway lights and how to wire them. The bit about NEC code i was not. This house is wired very oddly in my opinion. The use of the 12/3 has definitely made tracking circuits down a dair bit harder. Ive put in a lot of attic time on this job. Panel was completely blank and the home owners had already done significant demo, flipping breakers to see what turned on wasnt an option. Had to trace every single wire and dismantle every single junction box. Just finished tonight. Finally have the panel all figured out. Now its time to start running circuits to their new locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 10 hours ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: Yes. In this configuration white is supposed to be netural, but in this instance it has been repurposed to save money. No. In a configuration where the power feed goes directly to the overhead light box and then the switched leg is run out of the ceiling box and then back into it, the switched leg does not have a neutral. It's just an extension of the hot leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftpiercecracker1 Posted September 30, 2019 Author Share Posted September 30, 2019 13 hours ago, Eagle said: No. In a configuration where the power feed goes directly to the overhead light box and then the switched leg is run out of the ceiling box and then back into it, the switched leg does not have a neutral. It's just an extension of the hot leg. Yes, I'm with you 100% even though there is a white wire there is no neutral wire in the above configuration, only bare copper ground and incoming (blk) and outgoing (wt) hot legs. But you would submit that this configuration, where there is no neutral, is not normal yes? And that if it were to be rewired according to todays electrical code, the white wire is used as and understood to be the neutral leg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmorgo Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 Seems like a totally normal way to wire a switch to me. I mean in theory you could use a two-pole switch and switch both the hot and neutral circuits, but that's redundant. Think of it like an automotive DC circuit. Hot would be your batt+, neutral is your batt-. You can have a switch on either side to complete the circuit. You just can't exactly call them positive and negative in an a/c circuit because the voltage alternates back and forth. The ground for household wiring is a safety device. Because the power will return to the power plant through the soil under our feet in the event of a short, the ground provides a direct path to the soil so it's less inclined to jump through a person on its way down. I've also had the misfortune of messing with questionable vintage wiring. Seems every electrician had their own way of doing things, if it was even a trained electrician. It used to be acceptable to use the plumbing for your ground. All well and good until you've got a ground fault and suddenly can't touch your faucets with wet hands... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 7 hours ago, ftpiercecracker1 said: But you would submit that this configuration, where there is no neutral, is not normal yes? And that if it were to be rewired according to todays electrical code, the white wire is used as and understood to be the neutral leg? No, this configuration is quite common. The main cable (BX or Romex, whichever) containing the hot, the neutral, and the ground, goes to the ceiling box, and then a 2-conductor leg is run from the ceiling box to the switch to extend and switch the hot leg. It's completely code-compliant as long as the white wire is marked on both ends with black tape so down the road someone (like you) won't open up the switch box or the ceiling box and think that white wire is a neutral when it's actually hot. To rewire it so the white functions as a neutral would mean removing the cable from the breaker panel to the ceiling box, and running a new 12/2 or 14/2 cable from the breaker panel to the switch box. In the switch box, the old and the new black conductors would be attached to the terminals on the switch, and the old and new white conductors would be tied together with a wire nut. If the house wiring is in good condition, I don't see any reason to go through all that. On the other hand, if the wiring is old enough that the conductors have fabric insulation rather than plastic, then I would rip it out and start over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftpiercecracker1 Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 16 hours ago, Eagle said: No, this configuration is quite common. The main cable (BX or Romex, whichever) containing the hot, the neutral, and the ground, goes to the ceiling box, and then a 2-conductor leg is run from the ceiling box to the switch to extend and switch the hot leg. It's completely code-compliant. Really? Thats quite surprising to hear. I figured modern electrical code would require all fixtures and switches to have a netural and ground conductor. I say this because modern dryers use a four prong plug consisting of 12/3 or bigger heavier such that there are two dedicated hot legs (red/black), a neutral and a ground. 16 hours ago, Eagle said: To rewire it so the white functions as a neutral would mean removing the cable from the breaker panel to the ceiling box, and running a new 12/2 or 14/2 cable from the breaker panel to the switch box. Would this step be necessary if the cable running to the light box was long enough to reach the switch box? 16 hours ago, Eagle said: In the switch box, the old and the new black conductors would be attached to the terminals on the switch, and the old and new white conductors would be tied together with a wire nut. If the house wiring is in good condition, I don't see any reason to go through all that. On the other hand, if the wiring is old enough that the conductors have fabric insulation rather than plastic, then I would rip it out and start over. No fabric or aluminum, thank god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 A switch is a switch. It offers a way to interrupt current flow in the hot (supply) leg feeding a device (a receptacle or light socket or motor). By definition and by function, the neutral leg is the return from a device (a receptacle, a light fixture, or a motor) to the neutral bus in the breaker panel. How can you possibly have a neutral in a leg that's the hot leg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftpiercecracker1 Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 Just when I thought I was almost done, another wrinkle. Multibranch circuits aka Edison circuits. Never even heard of them until tonight. Now ive got to check everything again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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